Should Germany support operation N. Korean freedom?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Cruddy
Lord Merciless - that is the Al Qaeda view of the US. People fear what they do not understand and hate what they fear.

Ned - any non N Korean forces go over the 38th parrelel and China will rush 1000s of tanks and 100,000s of troops down the peninsular. They've been helping the N Koreans since before WW2 and they're not about to stab them in the back now.

Both of you - China will not tolerate any alteration of the status quo. You are playing with fire here for the sake of political correctness. The game is not worth the candle - CERTAINLY not to S Korea, which will be worst hit of your allies by any conflict.

Cruddy, don't you think that I don't know that? We need the "permission" of China. Else, I am we will just repeat of the Korean war.

As to how to gain there permission, both Lord Merciless and I provided possible compromises that will respect China's concerns.

[Cruddy]

Ned, if the US administration doesn't get China's green light - or if they get the green light and find out China had it's fingers crossed behind it's back - you're country is going to be in a war it CANNOT win. Stalemate is the best you can hope for.

I don't want to see that. And I don't trust the current US administration's diplomatic abilities or objective perception to guide your nation when it comes to South East Asia.

The truly horrible part of this situation is that a lot of people would make a stack of money out of it - while a helluva lot of people suffered and died.

I just can't be a part of it. Sorry. I doubt if any other country can either.

[Dinner]

I think it should be pointed out that there will be no invasion of North Korea unless they first attack the south. There will be no operation Korea freedom.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Cruddy
Ned, if the US administration doesn't get China's green light - or if they get the green light and find out China had it's fingers crossed behind it's back - you're country is going to be in a war it CANNOT win. Stalemate is the best you can hope for.

I don't want to see that. And I don't trust the current US administration's diplomatic abilities or objective perception to guide your nation when it comes to South East Asia.

The truly horrible part of this situation is that a lot of people would make a stack of money out of it - while a helluva lot of people suffered and died.

If our offer is good enough, Chinese will jump on board. They are already too much integrated into our collective capitalistic system. In addition, we have Taiwan to bargain for. Finally, China would rather have SK at its border than NK, without US troops of course.

The South Korean approval of an invasion is the most crucial one. They will be one to provide most of the invasion force, they will be the one to liberate the North afterwards, and they will be the one to carry most of the casualties. I don't think we will carry out any pre-emptive strikes this time. If it ever comes to war, North Koreans will be the one firing the first shot.

It's possible for us to induce North Koreans to make the fatal mistake. We can start by performing a full-scaled land and naval blockade, we will put pressure on every country that buys weapons from them, then we can assembling a strike force around the peninsular. I bet Kim would sooner or later freak out and sign his own death warrant.

As for your Europeans, I have a word for all of you: you should hope that America wins all the coming wars, because our well-beings are intricablly linked. If we go down, so do you and vice versa.

[Cruddy]

Gulf of Tonkin 2, here we come...

I tried folks.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Cruddy
I just cannot, for the life of me, think why N Korea owning nukes freaks the US out so much.

Can you really be that naive?

[Cruddy]

Dinodoc, so you can't verbalise it either?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Cruddy
Dinodoc, so you can't verbalise it either?

Not true. I'm just speachless that you can not understand something so bleeding obvious that it even makes the South Korean government nervous.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Not true. I'm just speachless that you can not understand something so bleeding obvious that it even makes the South Korean government nervous.

So you CAN'T verbalise it. Do me a favour, and come up with just why the US (NOT S Korea) is so afriad of the N Koreans having nukes.

It's not as if the US could not retaliate 50 times over and still have 95% of it's nukes ready for action.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Cruddy
Gulf of Tonkin 2, here we come...

I tried folks.

There are some major and decisive differences compared to Vietnam:

1. NK is isolated. Even the Chinese won't support them this time.

2. NK regime has no support in population. Its people and its military will abandon the regime as soon as they can see what bright future awaits them.

3. SK is much stronger than NK.

4. The US is much stronger compared to Vietnam era.

[Whaleboy]

Whatever happened to the notion that nations would seek objectivity, and not force their form of government and culture over anyone else, particularly those that are unfamiliar or undesiring of it?

Ah well.. history will surely judge such attitudes as idiocy.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by elijah
Whatever happened to the notion that nations would seek objectivity, and not force their form of government and culture over anyone else, particularly those that are unfamiliar or undesiring of it?

There can be no peace between cultures if one demands women to stoned to death for showing their faces.

There can be no peace between government forms if one executes people along with their families for voicing concerns about its policies.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
There are some major and decisive differences compared to Vietnam:

Let it go. It isn't going to happen because we seem to have some "wierd" attachment to the continued existance of Seoul and Tokyo.

[Cruddy]

Sorry Lord Merciless, I wasn't very clear in the post. The Gulf of Tonkin was seen as a deliberate provocation by Vietnam on the US interest's at the time it happened.

Afterwards, it was understood to be a blatant lie, that the US had deliberately started the war because it thought it could win.

I agree with you, the situation is totally different to the Vietnam era.

It was HOW THE WAR STARTS I was trying to get over.

As for your first 3 point - I disagree totally. You cannot even get non NK radio in that country, let alone TV or newspapers. It's totally isolated, and most of the people there perceive the outside world as hostile.

If you think China is not going to support NK - ah, go study Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia again. That might give you an idea of how the Chinese operate. Even if they don't support with direct military intervention (and I think they would - it's a moot point until it happens) there's a lot of other support they could give.

Even a US occupation of N Korea - all opposing conventional forces beaten in the field - would not prevent succesful guerrila operations for years to come.

They wrote Sun Tzu. If you haven't, I suggest you do.

[Cruddy]

Don't get me wrong here, Lord Merciless. I am not condoning or approving in any way, shape or form, the behaviour of the Kim Il Sung regime.

But it seems hypocritical to support one regime that represses women (Saudi Arabia) and demand the extinction of another for the same reason.

It's not a perfect world. But there's a time for war and a time where it is not appropriate or useful. At the present time in North Korea I judge it counter-productive and even playing into the hands of the Chinese.