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  • Divinity n' stuff

    This is just something I've been thinking about lately:
    Since I came to poly, I've seen the creation-evolution argument pop up, well, billions of times. All the arguments centered around science and faith as competing systems of the same general sort-I.E., explanations of natural phenomena. That's understood, in the context of those arguments, as the purpose of both. As probably everyone noticed, I disagreed with these on the grounds that I regard religion primarily as a guide for moral behavior, with all other aspects secondary. That got me thinking about ecumenism-the relatively modern idea, practiced by Gandhi I think, of treating all religions as partially and equally valid truths. I always thought of that idea as a load of PC trash concocted by people too lazy to face truth(which, of course, is what atheists say about people like me, but that's another story...). Obviously though, under such a system of belief, you do not practice any religion as I think of it. If you regard all faiths as equally valid, you have no choice but to regard god as an unknown quantity with unknown desires, or else have your beliefs constantly warring with each other. Hence ecumenism, naturally, cannot function as a moral guide. It's still called religion though, so obviously others don't think of religion the same way I do.
    How do you define religion? What's the point? What do you guys think? Is it an alternative to science, a security blanket, a moral guide, none of the above, or some of each?
    Yes, I realize this will probably turn into a flamewar...sigh.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    That's pretty much what I think. I think all religions are equally valid, they are just a way of framing a set of morals that work within the context of the society they came from.

    Say if someone believes that eating the hearts of the enemies they kill in combat is a way to honour that spirit I don't see that as any better or worse than drinking wine as a representation of the blood of the son of god who died for 'our' sins.
    Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
    Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
    We've got both kinds

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    • #3
      Of anything you named, a moral guide.
      Most of the relevant laws are based on the Ten Commandements, accept that or not.
      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
      "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
      He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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      • #4
        Almost all pre-christian and currently non-christian societies have laws against theft* and murder which are the two important ones.

        *Unless they don't have a concept of property like the Aussie Aboriginies.
        Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
        Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
        We've got both kinds

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SlowwHand
          Of anything you named, a moral guide.
          Most of the relevant laws are based on the Ten Commandements, accept that or not.
          You could say as well that the fundamental laws a based on common sense.
          Statistical anomaly.
          The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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          • #6
            Most of the relevant laws are based on the Ten Commandements, accept that or not.
            ...Not.

            Most laws in Western countries have Roman roots (and, hence, Greek roots).

            These are the Ten Commandments of Solon of Athens:

            1. Trust good character more than promises.
            2. Do not speak falsely.
            3. Do good things.
            4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
            5. Learn to obey before you command.
            6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
            7. Make reason your supreme commander.
            8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
            9. Honor the gods.
            10. Have regard for your parents.

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            • #7
              Certainly, Davout. Except for one thing.
              That assumes people to have common sense.
              Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
              "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
              He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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              • #8
                Originally posted by SlowwHand
                Certainly, Davout. Except for one thing.
                That assumes people to have common sense.
                I meant that the first laws were necessary for the tribes to last.
                Statistical anomaly.
                The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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                • #9
                  Exactly. The tribes that didn't kill each other but killed their competing tribes would be more successful than the ones that didn't.
                  Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                  Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                  We've got both kinds

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I see religion mostly as a way of explaining life, the universe, and everything. As such it doesn't necessarily act as a replacement to science (e.g. "The world is flat because it says so in the Bible, so **** off with your science mumbo-jumbo") but might serve to act as a supplement to science (e.g. "When you die you're judged before God" or "God created the Universe, though I don't necessarily know how He accomplished this").

                    I see it acting similarly WRT morality, since very few religious people in my experience use religion as a replacement for morality (e.g. "Do what I say or God will punish you" or some other carrot-stick "morality") but instead use it as a supplement (e.g. "Jesus says to love your neighbor as yourself" does not require a belief in God in order to be a valid statement, any more than "Aristotle says to love your neighbor as yourself" or "Gandhi says to love your neighbor as yourself", though believing that Jesus is God will certainly lend a bit more credence to the first statement. It's only a statement like "Love your neighbor as yourself, or Aristotle will give you a thorough spanking" that would require a belief that Aristotle is God (or at least some immortal spanking-machine) in order to be considered valid).
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                    • #11
                      Christianity at least has nothing to do with morality. Christians have morals not in order to love God and have salvation through Christ's crucifixtion, but because they love God have salvation through Christ's crucifixtion.

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                      • #12
                        Is it OK if I hate my neighbor for many reasons, because I also hate myself for as many reasons, although not necessarily the same ones ?
                        Statistical anomaly.
                        The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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                        • #13
                          Rogan, I hate to burst your bubble, but Christian theology is a ****load more complicated than that. Tammy Faye Bakker and other evangelists would like to have us believe it's just that, but any 2000-year-old intellectual tradition is bound to have more to it than "believe and be saved." What you hear on EWTN or what-have-you is watered down for easier comprehension, and even the people giving it to you know it. I hope. Maybe there are people out there dumb enough to think of right and wrong that way, but certainly I'm not one of them.
                          With that said, I didn't mean this to be a multiple-choice exam or anything...maybe my phrasing was misleading. If nothing I said sounds like what you think of as religion, tell me. The reason I view faith as a moral guide is kinda like what Sloww said: don't assume people have common sense. In the kind of situations where snap moral decisions have to be made, a religious creed strikes me as the ideal solid rock to stand on. Most people just don't have the fortitude, self-awareness or objectivity to determine right and wrong as the situation warrants, IMO. But if you are religious but don't use it in that sense-how do you use it? Or is it just a part of your vague awareness with no real significance: income tax April 15, brother's birthday August 17, church every sunday, all one routine?
                          1011 1100
                          Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                          • #14
                            This thread is destined to become Christians blabbering about how their religion is so much more special than others and Agnostics slamming down chrisitanity.
                            :-p

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                            • #15
                              ecumenism-the relatively modern idea, practiced by Gandhi.
                              Also by Pope John II.

                              Did Gandhi ever attend a Christian service?

                              Most laws in Western countries have Roman roots (and, hence, Greek roots).
                              Jack:

                              I would dispute this, as it becomes very difficult to seperate Roman roots from Christian roots after the Empire takes upon Christianity as a state religion.

                              As for your list:

                              8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
                              What are bad things? Seems a rather poor list.
                              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
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