U.S. Troops Fire on Iraq Protesters Again

[Sava]

Originally posted by gunkulator
"but if you hear gunfire from a crowd, best to just stand there and get shot at."

again, you are making the mistake of thinking there are only 2 possible courses of action.

Shoot into the crowd like a cowboy
Do nothing

Sorry, but it takes a very small amount of time to check your targets. And if NC's are in your line of sight, you DON'T SHOOT THEM.

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by Tolls
You do not go firing into crowds on the off chance that you might get the people who are apparently shooting at you.

Please provide a reasonable alternative. If you suggest "run away" then you are basically acquiesing to mob rule. If the victorious mob then proceeded to loot and vandalize, I would fully expect massive criticism from the same people who are biatching about the shooting.

Shoot at the military - get shot back at. The shooters are using the crowd as cover so THEY are responsible for the consequences.

The end result of this was 25 years of terrorism...

LOL! I think there might just be a tad bit more history involved than that one day in 1972.

[Tolls]

"I think there might just be a tad bit more history involved than that one day in 1972"

Not really...Bloody Sunday became a potent symbol, and recruiting device for the IRA. It didn't need any more. The fact that we then went and gifted them internment is by the by...we would have had to have dealt with Bloody Sunday directly (as the recent trials over it) straight away to have a hope of recovering lost ground.

Hopefully the US will deal with this well, but as I say I doubt it...

[Sava]

Please provide a reasonable alternative.

Fire single shots at confirmed targets rather than spraying automatic rifle fire into a crowd. What's so hard to understand here?

[SlowwHand]

Some Iraqis make it Hell on many Iraqis.

Who is really to blame?

[Tolls]

"Who is really to blame?"

The arseholes who don't want this to work...you, however, should be very careful not to give them ammunition.

[The Mad Monk]

Sava, they aren't police, and they aren't trained to be police. I said this several times before -- and I know MtG has said it numerous times. They are trained to take down opposition quickly and permanently, and they are trained very, very well. It's how they stay alive in a war.

[Sava]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Sava, they aren't police, and they aren't trained to be police. I said this several times before -- and I know MtG has said it numerous times. They are trained to take down opposition quickly and permanently, and they are trained very, very well. It's how they stay alive in a war.

That's exactly my point. They shouldn't be in there trying to keep the peace. Let the UN go in and be responsible for this crap. I'm sick of these situations. It's just ammo for the America-hating Mullahs.

[SlowwHand]

At some point the Iraqi population has to take responsibility, and accountability, for the acts of the minority of the citizens.

Seven U.S. Soldiers Wounded in Iraq Grenade Attack
Thu May 1, 7:16 AM ET

By Saul Hudson

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Seven U.S. soldiers were wounded in a grenade attack at their base in the Iraqi city of Falluja, where American troops killed at least 15 people during protests this week, the U.S. military said on Thursday.


"The attack was an expression of the anger of a few people in the city after what happened," Captain Alan Vaught said in reference to the U.S. shootings at earlier anti-American demonstrations.


The U.S. soldiers wounded in the grenade attack late on Wednesday were evacuated from the city 30 miles west of Baghdad. A U.S. Central Command statement said of the seven wounded, five required medical attention and were in stable condition.


After the attack, U.S. troops exchanged gunfire with Iraqis. Centcom, which said U.S. forces had "exercised their inherent right to self-defense," had no estimates of Iraqi casualties.


Falluja Mayor Taha Badawi Hamid al-Alwani condemned the grenade attack.


"Anybody, whoever he is, American or Iraqi, who resorts to violence is an evil person," said Alwani, selected by local tribesmen to lead the city after the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) on April 9.


Deputy Mayor Ziad Mekhlif said: "The religious leaders in the city are working with the government to ask the people to stay calm. But, if the Americans make a mistake and overreact again, I don't know how we will contain the hatred."


Tension has been running high in the conservative Sunni Muslim city of about 270,000 over the presence of U.S. troops stationed in a former Baath party compound protected with barbed wire and guarded from sand-bagged gun positions on the roof.


ANTI-AMERICAN BANNERS


While residents generally say they are grateful the Americans ousted Saddam, they have made clear they want U.S. troops to leave them to govern their city as soon as possible.


On the perimeter walls of the mayor's compound, residents hung anti-American banners. "Sooner or later U.S. killers we'll kick you out," read one sign, written in English.


Other banners repeated the message throughout the city.


"Go out of our city. If you refuse our women and children will kill you," another banner said, also in English.


On Monday, U.S. soldiers fired on an angry crowd demanding U.S. troops leave a school they had occupied. Thirteen Iraqis were killed. Two days later, two Iraqis were killed when U.S. soldiers opened fire in a similar incident.


The U.S. military said its troops were shot at first in both incidents but Iraqi witnesses said the shootings were unprovoked.


"I can't do anything now because they have tanks. But I will wait and I will kill Americans. I will take my revenge," said 14-year-old Ahmed Muthana, whose father was wounded and uncle killed when soldiers shot at demonstrations on Monday.


City officials said they had been meeting with U.S. troops to reduce tension and were negotiating for them to move their base to the outskirts of the city.





The American troops have left the school that sparked Monday's demonstration.

Deputy Mayor Mekhlif said the U.S. military presence was less visible on Thursday than in previous days with no road check points and fewer surveillance helicopters overhead.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, talking without a frame of reference is certainly JUST opinion, and uninformed opinion at that.






And Sava, knowing you're a practicing paranoid, this isn't directed at you.

[Ned]

I think the evidence is beginning to suggest that some Iraqis, perhaps former members of the Saddam régime, are deliberately trying to provoke the attacks by pulling their AK-47's and firing into the air. They don't fire at the American soldiers because that will leave bullet holes as evidence that would confirm that the first shots were fired from the crowd.

The hand grenade attack today confirms that the people of the town have military weapons.

It looks like the Saddam régime is not going to go down without a fight. However, it does suggest that US troops should hold their fire just a little longer.

I see that news reporters are now in the city. Perhaps now we can see real evidence of who fires first.

[PLATO]

Falluja is apparently a Baathist stronghold, but interestingly the quoted article states that most people are glad the Americans came.

This is obviously an attempt by a minority still loyal to Oppression that is trying to sway public opinion against the US.

As they are now using military weapons, who can say a military response is not justified?

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by Sava
That's exactly my point. They shouldn't be in there trying to keep the peace.

Weren't you one of the outraged here who decried the Marine's lack of policing Baghdad shortly after the fall? You can't have it both ways.

Let the UN go in and be responsible for this crap. I'm sick of these situations. It's just ammo for the America-hating Mullahs.

All in good time. It's only been, what, 5-6 weeks for crissakes. You're acting like there should be complete law and order when there are still isolated pockets of resistance. Let's finish the fighting first, shall we?

In the meantime, fools who fire on soldiers shouldn't be surprised at the outcome.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sava
again, you are making the mistake of thinking there are only 2 possible courses of action.

Shoot into the crowd like a cowboy
Do nothing

Sorry, but it takes a very small amount of time to check your targets. And if NC's are in your line of sight, you DON'T SHOOT THEM.

I hate even half-way agreeing with Lancer, but **** 'em. It is standard tactics in the area to use civilians as human shields. You get some people yelling, some throwing rocks, and in the midst of the crowd, a few who are armed, using the crowd for concealment and cover.

Going back to disagreeing with the knuckle-dragging, meat-thumping crowd, this is symptomatic of not having enough forces in theater at the start of the war, not having enough there now, and not being politically prepared for occupation. At least none of this "dancing in the streets" nonsense is being spouted now, but this type of confrontation wouldn't happen if the US was there in large enough force to patrol proactively. Fallujah has a battalion HQ and a company of airborne, with the other companies in the battalion separated and in other nearby areas, but too far for effective mutual support, and too low in strength to detach multiple platoon size patrols into the area.

Fallujah itself has a population of over a quarter million, it's a known hostile area, and you only have a battalion of troops spread between occupying al Fallujah, al Habbaniyah, two airfields in the area, and multiple crossings of the Euphrates river.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Sava
"... looking to see if they are carrying weapons."
"... looking to see if they are children."

This is rediculous, especially in a crowded chaotic protest. I cant believe what some people are expecting out of ordinary young men . They arent friggin super heroes who can spot danger across the city and take out the danger with pin pint accuracy. It cant be done by normal men.

Have you ever 'read' those "Where's Waldo" books? Yeah, i did them, but it took me only god knows how long. Your expecting young men to do the exact same thing instantaneously... get real.

I understand how this only hurts the US, but the criticism i am hearing, for the most part, is complete, typical antiamerican, idealistic crap.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Ned


The hand grenade attack today confirms that the people of the town have military weapons.

Quite natural,
as there seem to be a lot of Weapon caches in most of the cities (and the military is only very slowly destroying the weapons).

It dseems to be very easy for everyone to get weapons in Iraq