French and Russian Collaborations with Saddam Hussein Begin to Surface

[Harovan]

Originally posted by gunkulator
My Great Aunt who ended up on the Eastern side after WWII would disagree with you. She was basically a prisoner in East Germany until she turned 65. Her brother (my grandfather) was fortunate to be on the Western side. My Great Aunt never forgave the Russians for putting up the wall and foricbly dividing the country and her family.

No need to tell me this crap. I've lived there myself.

I'm curious what you think of the 10,000 East Germans who risked their lives to escape to the west.

They knew what they risk, they risked it anyway, they lost. Some others won. To escape a wrong system is not a solution. To change it, is one. People did so in 1989.

What "orders" were given to the West German govt from Washington? Anything comparable to a secret police? false elections? imposition of communism? forced conscription? crackdown on emigration? what?

The Western German government always did obediently what it was told by the so called "big brother". What would happen, if they disobey, was visible a few weeks ago, when it dared to disagree with a war of aggression.

There was never any reason for Germany to be divided at all. Remember who built the wall.

The Federal Republic of Germany (Western Germany) was founded months before the German Democratic Republic (Eastern Germany). The NATO was also founded before the Warsaw Pact. I'm not sure if it were the Russians, who divided Germany. The Wall was idiotic and wrong, though.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by GP
Gratitude seems pretty thin.

May be because it was over-stressed lately.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Serb


Both Russians and Americans share the responsibility for Cold war. Millions of people suffered because of our Russo-American showdowns. Sure Yanks will never admit that they share this responsibility with us. They prefer to believe that they were liberators, while we were evil red ass motherf*ckers.

The occupation of Germany very little to do with the cold war. It was the continued occupation/control of Poland and the other Eastern European countries, including the Baltic states; the occupation/defiance of the UN in North Korea; the support of Mao against Chang; etc., that caused the cold war. By these acts, the USSR turned what was a "noble" defensive war against Hitler into a war of aggression and conquest that was rightly resisted by the free peoples of the world.

[gunkulator]

I've heard it called "The Iraqi Syndrome" - American overconfidence. It's just as bad as the "Vietnam Syndrome" that preceded it.

I for one, was anti-war. 80+ billion dollars and hundreds of lives is an appalling cost just to snub France, Germany and Russia. The justifications were weak at best.

Alas, though. The deed is done. Now that we are there, we have an obligation similar to our obligations in Germany and Japan of 1945. Neither country could be called a success for many years to come. I suspect the same will be true of Iraq. "The success of this occupation [of Germany] can only be judged 50 years from now." - Dwight Eisenhower. Overall, I am hoping that at the very least, the Iraqis will embrace democracy, the rule of law, human rights, and other basic freedoms denied to them for so many years. It happened in Japan so it may happen again.

My only issue with France, Germany and Russia is the blatant hypocrisy. For years, America has had to face(rightyfully) criticism for propping up and supporting dictatorships in support of political ends. Now we have stories of French, German and Russian fat capitalists getting sweetheart deals with Saddam's brutal regime. Instead of condemning them, I hear a lot of the same (lame) excuses the Americans used for years.

So, in my mind, there's plenty of sin and blame to go around. Bush, who should be voted out in 2004, for his ridiculously stupid foreign policy, but also Chirac for being in the pocket of rich French capitalists to secure deals with a dictator and then deflecting the backlash with anti-American rhetoric.

[SlowwHand]

Blow me , gunk.
All your analogies are bogus.

You get no vote. Mind your own business.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by gunkulator
Overall, I am hoping that at the very least, the Iraqis will embrace democracy, the rule of law, human rights, and other basic freedoms denied to them for so many years. It happened in Japan so it may happen again.

Bush, who should be voted out in 2004, for his ridiculously stupid foreign policy, but also Chirac for being in the pocket of rich French capitalists to secure deals with a dictator and then deflecting the backlash with anti-American rhetoric.

I wholeheartedly agree with your hope, Gunkulator

[Harovan]

So do I. We shouldn't forget to topple Schroeder, too. I didn't elect him and wouldn't do it now. Bush, Chirac and Schroeder must go. Neither of them has done good for his particular country.

[Ned]

GP, et al., the only thing the Germans should be grateful for is that we got rid of Hitler, allowed them to form a democracy and helped them reconstruct their country after WWII.

They have reason to be ungrateful for the continued occupation of Germany by Britain, the US and by the USSR for so long. But their ire should primarily be directed at the USSR. It was the USSR who tried to cut off Berlin and who caused the erection of wall dividing free Germany from enslaved Germany.

But the USSR now is gone. We should leave as well.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Ned
GP, et al., the only thing the Germans should be grateful for is that we got rid of Hitler, allowed them to form a democracy and helped them reconstruct their country after WWII.

They have reason to be ungrateful for the continued occupation of Germany by Britain, the US and by the USSR for so long. But their ire should primarily be directed at the USSR. It was the USSR who tried to cut off Berlin and who caused the erection of wall dividing free Germany from enslaved Germany.

But the USSR now is gone. We should leave as well.

One thing I have to disagree on, was your view of occupying Germany, and/or Japan.
It was a boon to their economy, and hurt ours.
That's the reason to look back and have negative viewpoints.

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

No need to tell me this crap. I've lived there myself.

and you were not the only one who was affected. Likewise, your opinion is just one of many.

They knew what they risk, they risked it anyway, they lost. Some others won. To escape a wrong system is not a solution.

So they were cowards then, eh? What would have been a better solution? Remember you can't include anything involving free elections, protests, free speech or armed revolt. Doesn't leave much.

To change it, is one. People did so in 1989.

Because the Russians ran out of money and left. Hungary and Czechoslovakia are good examples of what happened when "the people" tried to throw off their Russian overlords.

The Western German government always did obediently what it was told by the so called "big brother".

Nice non-answer. I'll ask again: What evil did the oppressive Americans force on you? Please be specific in how you were oppressed.

What would happen, if they disobey, was visible a few weeks ago, when it dared to disagree with a war of aggression.

Um, OK, what exactly happened? Feel free to compare with what happened to Hungarians or Czechs or even Chechnians .

The Federal Republic of Germany (Western Germany) was founded months before the German Democratic Republic (Eastern Germany). The NATO was also founded before the Warsaw Pact. I'm not sure if it were the Russians, who divided Germany. The Wall was idiotic and wrong, though.

West German gov't was formed by the French, British and Americans when those countries felt it was time for Germany to regain self-rule. The Russians preferred being an occupying power for longer. I doubt that Russian occupied East Germany would have been denied entry in the existing German gov't already running. Certainly the US would have preferred immediate reunification.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
So do I. We shouldn't forget to topple Schroeder, too. I didn't elect him and wouldn't do it now. Bush, Chirac and Schroeder must go. Neither of them has done good for his particular country.

Sir Ralph, the vast majority of the American people disagree with your statement concerning Bush.

Also, if there was a vote in Iraq, I think the Iraqi people would also approve of Bush.

But, if you asked the same question of Americans and Iraqi's concerning Schroeder and Chirac, ...well you know what the answer would be.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by gunkulator
Certainly the US would have preferred immediate reunification.

Don't forget to add "under the US authority". That's the beef. There were no noble motivations behind the creation of west Germany, because the cold war had already begun and Germany was its main thater at the time.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Ned
Sir Ralph, the vast majority of the American people disagree with your statement concerning Bush.

I don't care who rules America. Just keep him if he makes you happy.

Also, if there was a vote in Iraq, I think the Iraqi people would also approve of Bush.

I'm not sure about this. Neither should you.

But, if you asked the same question of Americans and Iraqi's concerning Schroeder and Chirac, ...well you know what the answer would be.

Thank God nobody asks them.

[Ned]

French embassy in Syria has given the high officials in the Saddam regime EU passports. Search extends to Europe.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20030507-18959030.htm

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Don't forget to add "under the US authority". That's the beef. There were no noble motivations behind the creation of west Germany, because the cold war had already begun and Germany was its main thater at the time.

Yes, you are right. But 3 out 4 of the nations formed a German nation and did it first. The occupation would still go on for many years. There was no way any of the 4 powers would have simply left Germany alone at that time.

The onus was on the Russians to allow "their" Germany to join with the already existing German nation, while still occupying the east for legitimate security reasons. Would have been tricky, but it might have worked.

Warsaw Pact was just a formalization of reality: Russia as the overlord. The west realized fairly quickly that Russia showed no signs of withdrawing or allowing real self-rule of eastern Europe. OTOH US could have cooled things down by not forming NATO, ANZUS, SEATO. This just fed Russian paranoia. Who knows? Maybe left alone, Russia would have withdrawn by itself, however with Stalin in charge, I suspect not.