French and Russian Collaborations with Saddam Hussein Begin to Surface

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Nobody bears hard feelings and people thank the US forces for keeping the military balance in Central Europe for so long. But the Russians are gone over 10 years now and there's no need to protect us against them anymore. The bases located in Germany aren't here for defense purposes anymore, but serve as bases for different kinds of aggressive wars now. The acceptance in our population for this is very low.

I agree, it's time to go. I think that one reason that we have remained for so long is that our facilities in Germany represent a fairly large investment, which would have been difficult to recreate elsewhere in a short period of time. We seem to be phasing out most of the bases though. I was in Germany in 2000, and the base that I worked on 14 years earlier was no longer in there.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Sikander
I agree, it's time to go. I think that one reason that we have remained for so long is that our facilities in Germany represent a fairly large investment, which would have been difficult to recreate elsewhere in a short period of time. We seem to be phasing out most of the bases though. I was in Germany in 2000, and the base that I worked on 14 years earlier was no longer in there.

Yes, a lot of the troops are already gone. There's only ~70,000 left. I personally have nothing against them, I barely notice them, although I live only 20 km away from a fairly large base. But it makes me sick to hear, that these bases are used as hubs in wars I don't accept, and that's the reason why I now want us to get rid of them. A lot of this feeling has accumulated in the past 3 years. I was rather pro American before.

[The Mad Monk]

I asked how old you were because your answer was something I expected from someone who was younger.

I now understand that you statement was colored by your dissatisfaction with how our bases have been used recently.

Removing that from the equation, and specifically in relation to how American and Russian forces treated the people of West and East Germany, how do they compare?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Removing that from the equation, and specifically in relation to how American and Russian forces treated the people of West and East Germany, how do they compare?

Aside from the events in 1953 (five years before I was born), where the "doctrines of the great Stalin" were still alive and well, the Russian forces treated the Eastern Germans about the same way as the Americans treated the Western Germans. They were barely noticeable and hid themselves in their barracks. It wasn't like shown in some bad Hollywood movies, that Russian officers were omnipresent. Every larger city had its Soviet Military Commandant, some had garrisons, and that was it.

As for the Eastern German government, it got of course its commands from Moscow, just like the Western German government got theirs from Washington D.C. After the wall fell and the first resentments between both sides of Germans were gone, some people (including me) begun to think, that the Eastern and Western Germans could have been friends long before, if it wasn't for both the Russians and the Americans, who used the time of the occupation to fight their dirty cold war on our territory.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

As for the Eastern German government, it got of course its commands from Moscow, just like the Western German government got theirs from Washington D.C. After the wall fell and the first resentments between both sides of Germans were gone, some people (including me) begun to think, that the Eastern and Western Germans could have been friends long before, if it wasn't for both the Russians and the Americans, who used the time of the occupation to fight their dirty cold war on our territory.

Both Russians and Americans share the responsibility for Cold war. Millions of people suffered because of our Russo-American showdowns. Sure Yanks will never admit that they share this responsibility with us. They prefer to believe that they were liberators, while we were evil red ass motherf*ckers.

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Aside from the events in 1953 (five years before I was born), where the "doctrines of the great Stalin" were still alive and well, the Russian forces treated the Eastern Germans about the same way as the Americans treated the Western Germans.

My Great Aunt who ended up on the Eastern side after WWII would disagree with you. She was basically a prisoner in East Germany until she turned 65. Her brother (my grandfather) was fortunate to be on the Western side. My Great Aunt never forgave the Russians for putting up the wall and foricbly dividing the country and her family.

I'm curious what you think of the 10,000 East Germans who risked their lives to escape to the west.

As for the Eastern German government, it got of course its commands from Moscow, just like the Western German government got theirs from Washington D.C.

What "orders" were given to the West German govt from Washington? Anything comparable to a secret police? false elections? imposition of communism? forced conscription? crackdown on emigration? what?

After the wall fell and the first resentments between both sides of Germans were gone, some people (including me) begun to think, that the Eastern and Western Germans could have been friends long before, if it wasn't for both the Russians and the Americans, who used the time of the occupation to fight their dirty cold war on our territory.

There was never any reason for Germany to be divided at all. Remember who built the wall. It is unfortunate for you that Germany happened to be the border of the Russian and American alliances, but really now - how badly did West Germany really fare under the supposed American domination? I see a prosperous democratic country built on the ruins of an autocratic dictatorship. What do you see?

[TCO]

People risked their lives to excape East Germany. They got shot trying to escape that dictatorship. And there's no difference? Could I have some of that ganja you smokin'?

[TCO]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Nobody bears hard feelings and people thank the US forces for keeping the military balance in Central Europe for so long. But the Russians are gone over 10 years now and there's no need to protect us against them anymore. The bases located in Germany aren't here for defense purposes anymore, but serve as bases for different kinds of aggressive wars now. The acceptance in our population for this is very low.

Gratitude seems pretty thin.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Serb


Both Russians and Americans share the responsibility for Cold war. Millions of people suffered because of our Russo-American showdowns. Sure Yanks will never admit that they share this responsibility with us. They prefer to believe that they were liberators, while we were evil red ass motherf*ckers.

That's because you were. It was an evil dictatorship with a secret police. People risked their lives to escape that slave camp. People risk their lives to get into ours.

Face it. You are on the trashheap of history. We are ascendant. Good conquers evil.

[Spiffor]

Especially since the victor always defines "good"

[gunkulator]

Of course the winners write history - but don't take our word for it. Just look at East vs. West Germany. Which do you think was better? I know it's painful and not politically correct, but believe me when I tell ya that every now and then America does the right thing - shocking and unthinkable as that may be.

[Spiffor]

I know, and I was just reacting to the overconfidence of GP. Personally, I would listen to SirRalph on this one, since he is the most involved person in this. I don't think GP's behaviour of shouting "You're wrong !" from half-a-world away was justified.

The US have massively funded West Germany, and helped it become an efficient democracy (the Germans were the first authors of this democracy, this is not a Japan-like scenario). West Germany also didn't have to fund expensive colonial wars or the cold war during the reconstruction, and had a strong work discipline, which explains why it faired economically that well.

The USSR, in east Germany, hadn't it massively funded, and imposed a dictatorship under the Soviet authority. East Germany has put significant efforts in paying for the cold war, and its economy was partly planned from Moscow, which served itself on the COMECON countries. OTOH, the stasi was not led by the USSR, but was a very German organization which became a model for other secret polices in the East bloc.

I really think West Germany is better than East : free people, who don't have to fear coercion fro their political beliefs, and a better standard of living. West Germany hasn't suffered from East's fate because the US agreed in letting the West having as much autonomy as needed except in diplomatic and military matters. the US is to thank for not involving itself too much in West Germany.

It doesn't mean the US have done the "good" GP is gloating. The US has done well, and has had an efficient and better policy. Not an absolute "good" by any standard.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Serb


It's very funny claim, consider that it was USA who created Pinochet. Just visit a CIA site and read how those guys are proud that they overthrown Aliende and installed Pinochet instead of democratically elected president of Chile.

CIA site. Really? More likely KGB.

But anyway, give me a link.

[SlowwHand]

Beginning to surface?
That's like announcing France considering not endorsing war with Iraq.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Serb


I'm afraid we have different views about foundation of UN and about role UN.
1) I don't think it was mainly the US and Britain who created UN. UN was created by Allies after victory in WW2,BY ALL allies including Soviet Union.
2) I don't think that "The UN is an American ideal", because Soviet Union played active role in creation of UN.
3) I don't think that somewhere in the UN design process, you lost your way when you did not insist on democratic goverments be a ground rule for continued membership. Because Soviet Union was one of the founding fathers of UN and it would never allowed this.

No doubt including the USSR in the foundation of the UN was its undoing. Most Americans fought WWII to defend "democracy." We viewed helping Stalin as a necessary evil to defeat Hitler. But, after the close of WWII, it was no longer necessary to continue to cooperate with Stalin. That we did was a betrayal, a treasonous betrayal, of the very purpose for which we fought that war.

I wonder whether Truman and the Congress that ratified the UN Charter were naive, stupid or treacherous.

You decide which.

(BTW, Serb, wouldn't you want the UN to be pro-democracy?)