French and Russian Collaborations with Saddam Hussein Begin to Surface

[Serb]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


Perhaps, but can you see the difference in, say, the Americans staying in West Germany, and the Russians staying in East Germany?

Go ahead, enlighten me.

[The Mad Monk]

Enlighten you?

The wall said it all.

[Serb]

You think walls can speak?
I'm afraid you need some medical help, man.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ned


We did not support Pinochet.

It's very funny claim, consider that it was USA who created Pinochet. Just visit a CIA site and read how those guys are proud that they overthrown Aliende and installed Pinochet instead of democratically elected president of Chile.

[Drake Tungsten]

Russia sucks.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Perhaps, but can you see the difference in, say, the Americans staying in West Germany, and the Russians staying in East Germany?

I live in Germany (and lived in both parts) and I don't see any difference. Both were occupation forces, both were in a military alliance with the local army and both acted pretty oppressive in the beginning (although, admittedly, more so the Russians). The only difference I see is, that the Russians went home when it was time, while the Yanks yet have to be convinced to go for good.

[Serb]

Thanks.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Russia sucks.

Great debating skills.
Just do yourself a favor, please f*ck off.
Have a nice day.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ned
Serb, Humanity did not found the United Nations, the US, Britain, the USSR and China did,

I see no France in your list. Hmmm anti-French feelings must be pretty strong in US.
Anyhow, just read this document. It's preamble to UN Charter. I see no "We Yanks&Brits determinated...". All what I see is "WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED"

UN Charter

Preamble

"WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED

- to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
- to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and
- to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
- to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

AND FOR THESE ENDS
- to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and
- to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and
- to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and
- to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,

HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS

Accordingly, our respective Governments, through representatives assembled in the city of San Francisco, who have exhibited their full powers found to be in good and due form, have agreed to the present Charter of the United Nations and do hereby establish an international organization to be known as the United Nations. "

but mainly the US and Britain, IIRC.

The UN is an American ideal that has turned sour, first because Stalin, who had a veto, turned out to be an enemy. Second, because we admitted so many countries that were not or soon were not democracies.Somewhere in the UN design process, we lost our way when we did not insist on democratic goverments be a ground rule for continued membership.

I'm afraid we have different views about foundation of UN and about role UN.
1) I don't think it was mainly the US and Britain who created UN. UN was created by Allies after victory in WW2,BY ALL allies including Soviet Union.
2) I don't think that "The UN is an American ideal", because Soviet Union played active role in creation of UN.
3) I don't think that somewhere in the UN design process, you lost your way when you did not insist on democratic goverments be a ground rule for continued membership. Because Soviet Union was one of the founding fathers of UN and it would never allowed this.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


I live in Germany (and lived in both parts) and I don't see any difference. Both were occupation forces, both were in a military alliance with the local army and both acted pretty oppressive in the beginning (although, admittedly, more so the Russians). The only difference I see is, that the Russians went home when it was time, while the Yanks yet have to be convinced to go for good.

How old are you?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
How old are you?

In my fourties, is that important?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


I live in Germany (and lived in both parts) and I don't see any difference. Both were occupation forces, both were in a military alliance with the local army and both acted pretty oppressive in the beginning (although, admittedly, more so the Russians). The only difference I see is, that the Russians went home when it was time, while the Yanks yet have to be convinced to go for good.

You never noticed the difference between 5 divisions in West Germany and a peace treaty vs 20 divisions in East Germany and the Stasi? I don't think you were very observent. In my short time in the FRG during the Cold War I was regularly thanked by German civilians for doing my part vs the Russians. I only met one man who stated his opposition to the U.S. presence in Germany, and even he was quite polite about it. Ask us to go formally and we'll go quickly.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Sikander
You never noticed the difference between 5 divisions in West Germany and a peace treaty vs 20 divisions in East Germany and the Stasi? I don't think you were very observent. In my short time in the FRG during the Cold War I was regularly thanked by German civilians for doing my part vs the Russians. I only met one man who stated his opposition to the U.S. presence in Germany, and even he was quite polite about it. Ask us to go formally and we'll go quickly.

Nobody bears hard feelings and people thank the US forces for keeping the military balance in Central Europe for so long. But the Russians are gone over 10 years now and there's no need to protect us against them anymore. The bases located in Germany aren't here for defense purposes anymore, but serve as bases for different kinds of aggressive wars now. The acceptance in our population for this is very low.

[Sikander]

According to DebKa File, these documents are among a large cache of documents seized from the Iraqi secret service. Security information gleaned from these documents has been forwarded to allied countries when the information concerned them. Additionally, documents that provide information considered politically useful to Tony Blair was quickly cleared and apparantly leaked, these articles being the result. According to DebKa file there is a treasure trove of damning information against Chirac, some of which has been leaked, the vast majority is being held back. Here's the link.

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=484

IMO DebKa file is an interesting source for information, but it is not 100% reliable. DebKa also asserts that some of Iraqs WMD were smuggled out of the country to Syria, and later Lebanon where they were hidden in the Bekaa valley. I heard this rumor even before the war, though it is obviously going to be very difficult to prove one way or the other. Here is a link to that story:

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=482

" Now, our intelligence sources can disclose exclusively that the relocation of Iraq’s WMD systems took place between January 10 and March 10 and was completed just 10 days before the US-led offensive was launched against Iraq. The banned arsenal, hauled in giant tankers from Iraq to Syria and from there to the Bekaa Valley under Syrian special forces and military intelligence escort, was discharged into pits 6-8 meters across and 25-35 meters deep dug by Syrian army engineers. They were sealed and planted over with new seedlings. Nonetheless, their location is known and detectable with the right instruments. Our sources have learned that Syria was paid about $35 million to make Saddam Hussein’s forbidden weapons disappear.

Before US secretary of state Colin Powell arrived in Damascus on Saturday, May 3, the Syrians made the placatory gesture to Washington of speeding and upgrading the handover of Iraqi fugitives from the Saddam regime sheltering in Syria

DEBKA-Net-Weekly has learned from its most exclusive sources that on Monday, April 28, Dr. RihabTaha, a microbiologist known as Dr. Germ, was turned over to the Americans in Iraq. She had directed Iraq’s biological weapons program. Also turned over was Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash, who headed Iraq’s anthrax project. No announcement was made of their capture. However, the surrender 24 hours later of Taha’s husband, General Amir Muhammed Rasheed, director of Iraq’s missile development program and best known by his nickname “The Missile Man”, was announced.

The United States is therefore fully apprised of the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein’s arsenal of unconventional weapons and has taken custody of the scientists who developed them.

But DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s sources say Washington was nevertheless far from placated and Powell’s meeting with the Syrian president Saturday was a confrontation. The secretary of state laid down the following demands:

1. A map with the coordinates of the pits holding Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction.

2. Surrender of Saddam’s most senior insiders who fled to Aleppo and Latakiya. After DEBKAfile blew the whistle on April 3, the group staying at the Cote D’Azur De Cham Resort in Latakia was whisked away leaving their families comfortably ensconced there.

3. Handover of the two senior Al Qaeda members now in Damascus. DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s military and intelligence sources say their names and whereabouts were uncovered by US intelligence units in Iraq.

4. An explanation of Syrian motives in allowing two British terrorists, Assif Hanif, who blew himself up in Tel Aviv on April 30, and Omar Khan Sharif, who ran away, to transit Damascus en route to Israel. (One of the duo spent four months of preparation in the Syrian capital with the Hamas operations officer and associate of Hizballah Imad al-Alami, as reported exclusively by DEBKAfile.)

5. An immediate stop to the military-terrorist activities of the Lebanese Hizballah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas in Syria and Lebanon. Failure to do so, Powell explained, will result in a painful tightening of economic pressure on Syria, after the loss of $1b in oil revenues from Baghdad. "

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Sikander
You never noticed the difference between 5 divisions in West Germany and a peace treaty vs 20 divisions in East Germany and the Stasi? I don't think you were very observent.

About the numbers... Add the 12 divisions of the Bundeswehr and the 6 divisions of the Eastern German army. I'm off military service for long now, but as far as I remember, a NATO division (brigade based) is about twice as big as a Warsaw Pact division (regiment based). So in East Germany was based a force worth about 13 NATO divisions, standing against 17. Not that big difference, btw.