Tentative Project - Part Three

[wheathin]

The powergraph is highly weighted to military units. It could be the AIs are building large armies and then having them destroyed in combat. It could be that the same few cities keep changing hands. Or, it could be that once an AI takes a few cities, it is willing to let a victim make peace. Later, the victim regroups and takes back its losses.

Solutions?
Generally, the AIs have to be more willing to go for the kill - if an enemy is down, keep kicking them. The little nickle-and-dime attacks are wasteful and don't get much payoff for the invested time and production.

[lago]

A lot of AI civs build massive armies, and there's no retreat option for them. So when it's 12 against 12, and the battle goes down to the last hit point, that can show up pretty clearly in the graph.

Just a guess.

[Alpha Wolf]

I'm having fairly good results with lowering the initial production values of a city. Under the current production model, a new city gets the full production of its tile, plus a city bonus, plus 1/8 of of the surrounding area. I cut the city bonus to 5f-10p-10g. This seems to greatly slow the growth of cities. I also gave snow and desert tiles 0 food. I'm also playing with the way the AI decides where to settle so that they wont start cities that cant be supported. You can also determine how closely the AI packs its cities. A major prob i saw was that AI cities would grow rapidly but then stagnant as multiple cities tried to share the same tiles.

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History is written by the victor.

[Alpha Wolf]

Also, I mentioned this in some other thread, that in most CTP2 games I've played, the AIs seem to have huge ups and downs in their power graph, often over just a few (50 or so) turns. It isn't clear to me why this should be so. I usually end up with a pretty linear power graph, usually with minimal downs.

Do the AI do badly because they fight with each other a lot? But then, given that they're incapable of a massive attack, whereas their defense is pretty good, the huge ups and downs in power don't seem right.
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I've noticed this in my graph after losing major battles, or the lose of a city, especially a powerful one containing one or more wonders. BTW, I have been attacked by a stack of 8 which totally caught me by surprise.

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History is written by the victor.
[This message has been edited by Alpha Wolf (edited December 11, 2000).]

[Daniel Frappier]

Hi,

Taken from DiffDB (Impossible)
----------------------------------------------------
AI_MIN_BEHIND_PERCENT 1.8
AI_MAX_BEHIND_PERCENT 0.8
AI_MIN_AHEAD_PERCENT 2.0
AI_MAX_AHEAD_PERCENT 3.0

AI_MIN_BEHIND_GOLD_ADJUSTMENT 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0
AI_MAX_BEHIND_GOLD_ADJUSTMENT 1.5 1.5 1.3 1.3 1.1
AI_MIN_AHEAD_GOLD_ADJUSTMENT 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0
AI_MAX_AHEAD_GOLD_ADJUSTMENT 0.9 0.9 0.9 1.0 1.0
----------------------------------------------------

wich means i believe: if the AI is rated at 3 times or more the strenght of the human then use AI_MAX_AHEAD_GOLD ==> the AI will have a 10% penalty for gold.

if the AI is in between 2 and 3 times the strenght of the human then AI_MIN_AHEAD_PERCENT is use ==> no bonus or penalty.

if the AI is in between 1.8 and 2 times the strenght of the human then nothing special.

if the AI is in between 0.8 and 1.8 times the strenght of the human then AI_MIN_BEHIND_PERCENT is use ==> no bonus or penalty.

if the AI is less then 0.8 times the strenght of the human then AI_MAX_BEHIND_PERCENT is use ==> the as a 50% bonus for gold.

It's the same principle with Science & Production. Me to i have won the first game i played (at impossible) but like i mentionned to WesW before, the AI is not as bad as it looks but with those settings it simply can't and will never compeat with a human player.

In my game I play with:
----------------------------------------------------
AI_MIN_BEHIND_PERCENT 1.5
AI_MAX_BEHIND_PERCENT 0.85
AI_MIN_AHEAD_PERCENT 1.5
AI_MAX_AHEAD_PERCENT 2.5

AI_MIN_BEHIND_GOLD_ADJUSTMENT 1.1 1.25 1.4 1.55 1.7
AI_MAX_BEHIND_GOLD_ADJUSTMENT 1.4 1.6 1.8 2.0 2.4
AI_MIN_AHEAD_GOLD_ADJUSTMENT 1.0 1.05 1.1 1.15 1.2
AI_MAX_AHEAD_GOLD_ADJUSTMENT 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0
----------------------------------------------------

and something similar for science & prod and the AI do LOOK much better.

[Celestial_Dawn]

Thank you Daniel. Based on what I've seen of DiffDB I am in agreement with your observations.

Wes, the scope of your mod looks great! I am in agreement with Harlan however as far as the "less is more" approach - minimalist changes are better in this case if the timeline isn't going to be extended.

CtP timeline seems to have a lot more turns, so adding one or two units here and there shouldn't be problematic. However, you're talking about lots of new units ... it'd be better I think to start with a few, and then scale the timeline up progressively as you add more - and only if necessary ... don't want game to be too long.

And my humble suggestion - perhaps basic game balance should be addressed first before worrying about adding new units ...

That said, can't wait

And sigh - anyone know where I can find a tech tree? Scanned? I don't have a foldout, and it'll save me having to reconstruct the entire tree by hand ...
[This message has been edited by Celestial_Dawn (edited December 11, 2000).]

[lozina]

about cities growing too fast- i think i made modified by files just the way i like it... firstly- i reduced the percentage of plains and grasslands and included more inhospitable terrain like deserts and white tiles. then i made deserts, mountains, white tiles and sea tiles negative food value (except beaches and shallow water which gives 0-- i hated the huge megalopolises on a shore of a barren wasteland) but when u add nets you start getting food from water tiles. makes sense dosent it? by that same token- i made plains give 0 food and grasslands only 5. jungles & swamps give 10 food and forest i raised production. why do jungles give 10 food and plains 0?? well- think about it- a plains by itself is just grass. unless you're a buffalo its not useful to you. so in order to get food from plains you must have farms. so now i dont have huge cities growing in some barren plains with no farms- with original model i can get a size 30 city WITHOUT any farms in plains and i found that quite ridiculous. but now- my cities grow much much slower- but more realistically. if you work on a city with improvements and such you can get a nice size 12 in the early age- otherwise if u neglect it- you'll only get maybe a size 4. it really does work great for me. another thing i hated was how advances are researched so fast. by time i discover fighters and a few turns after i build my first fighter i get the intercepter technology. thats just silly. well good luck!

[Semjaza]

MrFun,

Being an ex-South African myself, I think doing a European/African map would be really great! BTW, why does Activision (and I believe in the other Civ games too, if my memory serves me well) insist on using tribe names as opposed to real city names? I noticed this with both the Native Americans and the Zulus. I would love to see a map/scenario done of South Africa and the struggles between the British/Dutch/German/French and the many African tribes they ran into during colonization. I also would love to see a map/scenario in a similar vein done ro reflect the Americans/Mexicans and the Native American Indians. I just don't know if there is much interest in these two areas.

Just my 2 cents...



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Just another Civ Addict

[Semjaza]

MrFun,

Being an ex-South African myself, I think doing a European/African map would be really great! BTW, why does Activision (and I believe in the other Civ games too, if my memory serves me well) insist on using tribe names as opposed to real city names? I noticed this with both the Native Americans and the Zulus. I would love to see a map/scenario done of South Africa and the struggles between the British/Dutch/German/French and the many African tribes they ran into during colonization. I also would love to see a map/scenario in a similar vein done ro reflect the Americans/Mexicans and the Native American Indians. I just don't know if there is much interest in these two areas.

Just my 2 cents...



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Just another Civ Addict

[wheathin]

Another AI-heleper idea that doesn't require SLIC: how about giving the capitol improvement a few extra bonuses, such as a city-wall benefit? This has to help the AI, because how many human players lose their capital in a game? And having or losing the capital is such a huge blow...

Perhaps also, to mimic the extra size of the capital, (as the seat of government, court, etc.) the capital could get a food or gold bonus?

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by Celestial_Dawn on 12-11-2000 11:15 PM And sigh - anyone know where I can find a tech tree? Scanned? I don't have a foldout, and it'll save me having to reconstruct the entire tree by hand ...

http://apolyton.net/ctp2/downloads/u...treeposter.pdf

[Jonny]

I am quite impressed with the North America map. I am in the 1700's and have noticed no problems with the map. There is only one thing I am confused about: Why do the Russians start in Alaska? I know they settled Alaska, but their capital, Moscow, and most of their empire was not there. Plus, their really annoying me, the Native Americans.

Other than that, I really like it!

Jonny

[Jonny]

I am quite impressed with the North America map. I am in the 1700's and have noticed no problems with the map. There is only one thing I am confused about: Why do the Russians start in Alaska? I know they settled Alaska, but their capital, Moscow, and most of their empire was not there. Plus, their really annoying me, the Native Americans.

Other than that, I really like it!

Jonny

[phenyl]

lozina: the thing with having specific country style units in world war 2 is that they are going to be very similiar in game play. maybe there should be a different sprite loaded for units with maybe a small amount of tweaking stats. depending on the civ who owns them? the idea about limiting unit production to cities that have specific advances is really good. something like that was done in the end game of ctp1, so for sure it is possible!

re:fire. that is a great idea. i suspect that it would invovled slic, but having fires (set or otherwise) as well as other natural disasters triggered randomly would mix up the game a bit. they (i am thinking earth quake) could affect terrain, cities and improvements too!!

pillboxes would basically mix tile improvements with unit abilities. ?? the only way i know of doing this is locking a unit to one location. the auto-defenders in cities that would die when moved are a good example. not really what you are suggesting as you could even hear them die when you moved em

xmon: your ideas are very good. the idea of tweaking combat strategies (flanking, etc) is good. this could also be used to introduce combined arms tactics if it were reliable.. (modern units working better together than seperately)

ship to ship combat seems like a pirate kind of thing to me esp the potential to damage/lose the ship, etc, potential gain cargo (gold), etc... pirates could be a barbarian only unit, along with other "anarchy" types (bandits, etc..)


wesw: i think it is a very good idea to pre-package the sprites ahead of time. even going so far as to pre-define empty sprites that have redundant graphics for later extension ... (free variables) if its that much easier to package at once..... this would also allow for a degree of flexibility if people were ever going to try and combine mods.

[lozina]

phenyl- on limiting unit production to cities with necessary buildings-

i was fooling around the alexander the great scenario included in the game and have found it does something similar. the scenario has specific cities allowed to make the triremes... these cities were predetermined by the creator. I've been studying the code and am trying to modify it so instead of checking for specific cities- it checks if the city has the buildings required in order to build that unit. if i can get it to work ill need help with a rational and realistic 'requirement tree' for units in the game (i.e. maybe in order to build a caravan that city needs a bazaar, catapults require mill and academy? etc..) ill let you know if i get lucky and it works!