Tentative Project - Part Three

[WesW]

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 12-08-2000 11:24 PM Wes, You didn't really answer my questions from my previous posting. First off, what percent longer will your mod be in turns than the regular CTP2 setup, and how does that compare with what percent of new units you'll have. I still worry about getting too many new units before I can really use them. Ways to automatically update old units to new (for a price or a Leonardo wonder or something) would help, certainly.

At this point, I plan for the mod to use the standard Ctp2 timeline. If play-testing reveals that it needs to be adjusted, we can do that.
As far as units go, my aim is to give each unit a sufficiently long era of supremecy in its category to make it worth building. Ideally, you will be jeopardizing your safety if you don't upgrade your forces when I new unit comes along.
The land units are divided into 7 ages, each age with a unit from one of the unit build list, except for modern units like anti-air and marines.
The naval units are less precisely defined, but I am basing them on the Med mod 4 setup, which worked out well as far as spacing is concerned.
Air units are divided into WWII, Genetic and Diamond ages, roughly speaking.

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 12-08-2000 11:24 PM Second question. What do you think about my comment that "less is more" and one shouldn't simply add a new unit or wonder or other, just because the graphic is there? I'll again point to the Ironclad and Monitor as an example. As far as I know, there was no such thing as defensive and offensive Ironclads, there was just one type. The Monitor was but an early single boat, and as one of the first Ironclads ever built, largely without any offensive weapons. This was an oversight (based on a need to rush a weapon, any weapon to meet the Merrimack) that was soon rectified by all later Ironclads. I can see why for logical reasons its good to look for an offensive and defensive ship in each era, but the Monitor is not what you're looking for for that era, unless you want to fly in the face of history.

From my understanding, the Ctp2 Ironclad is comparable to the successors of such ships as the CSS Alabama and the USS Kearsarge, who fought it out in the English Channel, and the forerunners to Armored Cruisers like the USS Maine.
Ships like the Monitor and Merrimac were specific to the US Civil War, but my understanding is that there were many Monitor-class ships built by the US Navy, and ships like the Merrimac played crucial roles in river warfare in the Civil War.
I plan to use the Monitor as a niche unit, available only to the first civ to research Steam Engines, for example. If less turns out to be better, then we can easily remove these units from the game.

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 12-08-2000 11:24 PM I would also call into question some of the other unit additions as being unnecessary, such as the Privateer, but if you could explain the wonders they'll be attached to, maybe they're look better. The Galleon I agree is an important unit, but I believe that is exactly what the Carrack is. They're nearly the same thing, but I'm sure the Activision guys named it Carrack simply so there would be one less unit they share with Civ2. For instance, I asked the lead designer why he wouldn't include Chariot, and the name was the reason: the legal team said they were skating on thin ice with having too many things the same as Civ2, and there was no other name to call Chariot. Other ones I'd question: why a WW2 Frigate? Slinger? Horse Archer and Bandit Horseman (one or the other is fine)? Heavy Swordsman and Swordsman (again, one or the other)? The Zulus? These seem driven by a cos we have the graphics sentiment. Bombard, Culverin AND Cannon seems a bit iffy- 2 out of three is good, unless the mod will stretch time out a ton.

I envision the Carrack as a Colunbus-era ship, while the Galleon would be the next evolution, a 16th or 17th-century unit. There is only one Naval transport unit available after the Cog, the Transport, which comes about in the Industrial age. We may need another transport between the Cog, which I plan to use as an early Renaissance transport like Tom designed it, and the Transport, and move the Transport to the 20th century. Or, I can use the Galleon as a swift raider ala Francis Drake, available to one Civ to establish naval supremecy during the Renaissance era, and an able support craft to the SotL, when that unit comes along.
Frigates are going to be the first and only unit capable of defending against air units until the late 20st-century Missile Cruiser comes along. The Slinger is the Bronze age ranged unit, the Horse Archer a late-Medieval Ranged and Flanking unit, and a companion to the Knight, Bandit Horsemen will be Iron Age swift raiders with both Ranged and Flanking attacks, available to only one civ, Heavy Swordsmen are successors to Swordsmen (I spent about an hour combing websites trying to find a better name than Heavy Swordsman, but to no avail. Any suggestions are welcome.) The Zulu Warrior is another special unit, and will have mounted-unit mobility and flanking attack combined with infantries ability to move over any land terrian. They will be a bronze and iron age unit, and I may leave them active up to the Industrial age. As I said earlier, Bombards will be immobile defensive units created automatically, and not able to be put into the build queues of anybody, while Culverins and Cannon will occupy diffrent eras.

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 12-08-2000 11:24 PM On the other hand, there are some holes that still need fixing. For instance, ICBM (I assume you forgot to mention Nukes), Seige Tower, Anti-Air Gun (pre-SAM). On another note, what about a provision in your mod for reducing the PW cost of adding, say, a Mega Mine to where a Mine was, or a Railroad to where a Road was. For instance, pay 300 instead of 500 if the original cost 200. I think it would be wonderful if someone made animations out of some of my units, but I also think it would be pretty near impossible, since they aren't based on 3D models.

I have not made any changes to nukes. I thought they were in the lists somewhere. I don't think there are flags present to portray siege engines accurately. If someone wants to try some slic stuff, be my guest. The anti-air artillery, which I had in the med mod I, I was going to wait and see how play-testing went. The anti-air category may have to be absorbed into another category anyway given the 5 build list restriction.

I will try and make another post dividing the standard units into their ages, and with wonder units in another list. Hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion.

As far as the Tile Improvements, I would love to be able to do that, but there is no setting for it at this time, unless you tried slic again.

[Knight in Shining Karma]

Why don't we make a Civ2 mod for CtP2? Original techs, units etc... or not?

[Knight in Shining Karma]

Why don't we make a Civ2 mod for CtP2? Original techs, units etc... or not?

[Knight in Shining Karma]

Why don't we make a Civ2 mod for CtP2? Original techs, units etc... or not?

[Pintello]

Hi Wes and Harlan,

Just to come to WesW's defense about the Monitor, the North built 60 something of those things just during the period of the Civil War. In fact, they were an entire official class of ships during the Civil War. I think the way Wes has broken up the early iron warships between coastal defenders and deep sea vessels is a good idea.

Wes, I like the way you are going to use one of your early "cannon" units as a strickly garrison type unit. If you can make the AI a lot more aggressive, that could be a very important developement. However, I don't think it is a good idea to use a ship as a garrison type unit. I think your plan to use the Monitor as a Shallow water defender/attacker is a better idea. If you want a garrison unit that is able to defend against sea units, just give the garrison cannon the ability to bombard ocean. I have already experimented with this and the AI definitely knows what to do with it. I think if you do give it the bombard ocean ability, you should also mitigate this by giving any naval vessels of this era the ability to counter bombard land though.

The reason the South's Merrimack type ships - they had more than one too, but not nearly as many as the North - were only used in bays and rivers was because the North had Monitor Class ships out is the coastal waters supporting operation "Anaconda." Anaconda was the name of the strategy the North used to blockade the entire Coast of the Confederecy. Later Monitor Class ships were able to handle the coastal ocean waters a lot better than the original Monitor could. Ericson, the guy who invented the Monitor, learned from his mistakes with the original Monitor and made lots of improvements on later models.

Regards,
Timothy Pintello
[This message has been edited by Pintello (edited December 09, 2000).]

[Alpha Wolf]

If I might jump in for a moment, I somewhat disagree with the upgrade ability. Human based units makes alot of sense. Just give them new weapons and some training and they are upgraded. But how would a ironclad realistically get upgraded to destroyer, or a cannon to artillery, since the artillery in CtP2 is actually self-propelled (speaking of which, how did they think sp artillery could happen BEFORE internal combustion?)

Not sure if you'd be interested, but I'm greatly modifying the terrain values. I too am sick of 20+ sized cities surrounded by snow, altho the one that got me was an AI city around 500bc that was already 21 and was completely surrounded by swamps except for 3 water tiles and 4 squares of river. Along with that, I'm modifying the cost and output of the terrain improvements. i have some play testing to do, but you are welcome to it once I get it to balance realistically. I'm hoping that slic can reduce time and cost to upgrade from one improvement to the next. Unfortunately, my slic is elementary at best so if you hear how to do it, I'd appreciate the knowledge.

[MrFun]

No reviews from anyone? wow

[MrFun]

No reviews from anyone? wow

[Semjaza]

Yup, we're all too busy playing it to comment on it!

[Semjaza]

Yup, we're all too busy playing it to comment on it!

[Matte979]

Some comments about the wage slider. If you change the wage slider to 12 as base and 4 in each direction it will seriously alter the game. The science will go much slower, there is a problem though seems 12 is a bit to high, human players can put wages at 4 but computer players put it at 8 and 12 which will damage there economy badly. I suggest you lower the base to 6 and have it got by steps of 2 to help computer players.

The happiness costs to much if the base i 12 and step is 4..

/Mathias

[lev]

Wes, I just sent you an email about the old CtP1 unit sounds.

Also, I agree with Harlan about the "less is more" -- variety of units must be balanced with game simplicity, and I urge you =not= to include units that are too similar in function unless they really add something to the game.

Overkill of units is the one big reservation I have about the mod, and I think you should weigh each choice carefully.

I =do= think it would be great to have an atom bomb available before guided weapons tech, with only two movement points, so that it would have to be bomber-delivered.

[lev]

Another couple ideas about Wonders (forgive me if these have already been mentioned, but I have trouble keeping up with all the posts!):

1. What if Wonder obsolescense was triggered not by an advance, but by the building of another wonder? For example, the Dutch East India trading co. could become obsolete when and if someone builds the London Exchange.

2. To fix the problem of "free-building" wonders and mayors building those anyway, change the wonder effect so that it actually places the building in the inventory of any existing or newly built city, on a one-time basis. If the building is destroyed, you don't get another free one in that city. This is the way SMAC handles such things, and it works well.

However, that would require changing some of the Feats of Wonder, since some of them are triggered by having a certain number of particular buildings, and you'd get a double bonus by building (for example) the Internet since you'd also gain the "lots of computer centers" feat. Actually, I'd recommend changing the Internet and the London Exchange to research and gold bonuses (respectively) rather than free buildings to fix this, instead of changing the Feats themselves.

[Harlan]

Wes,
Again, I feel you didn't really answer my comments about units, though you came closer. I generally know what things like Slingers or Frigates are, and what their role in the game would be roughly (though Bombards being immobile was a surprise). What I was hoping for in response was a spirited defense as to why such and such a unit is a must-have. Does it make the game more fun and/or is it a necessity historically? I would argue for the units I mentioned, no and no. I highly doubt that if you didn't have a graphic for, for instance, a Slinger, you'd be thinking, "Dang! If only I had a Slinger, then the Bronze Age would be looking really good." In that particular case, Archers go way back, to far before the start of CTP2's timeline. (Historically, Slingers were the poor man's archer, not the precursor)

Especially as you're not planning to extend the timeline any longer at current, I think the units you add need to be held to close scrutiny. 20 extra units is a gimme, but its easy to slip into 30 then 40 then more, as more sprites become available.

Another example. The Monitor again. Its true about 60 of those were built during the Civil War. Maybe 100 worldwide of vaguely Monitor-y type boats. But these had a very short history- from about 1861 to 1869, when the design of the Ironclad changed utterly. The Ironclad itself was a transitional unit, with only about 30 years of dominance, and the Monitor just an early transitional model of that. I could come up with dozens of units that have as much historical justification as that. I assume CTP2 turns would be moving at about 2 years a turn at this point, so you'd have about 4 turns to build and move into battle a Monitor before it was historically obsolete. It would be great for a Civil War scenario, though.

Galleon: the Santa Maria, sailed by Columbus, was a Galleon (though his two other ships weren't). This shows how short a historical life the domination of the Carrack was (about 50 years), though the two coexisted for a while longer.

I'm not sure what the point of Heavy Swordsman is, still. The Frigate didn't have any special anti-air capability until the SAM was invented. For the anti-air role it arose the same time as the Missile Cruiser, but is merely a cheaper, smaller version of that.

Then there's the Mounted Archer, Horse Archer and Bandit Horseman. I can't see what would be the need for three. The Horse Archer could play the role of Bandit Horseman: the Mongol Warrior type raiding at the fringes. One thing I recall reading when making the Alexander scenario: it is commonly believed by military historians that Alex's army could have taken on just about any army of the world until about 1500 since there was so little advancement in military technology and prowess until that time. The only advancement ever in archers on horses was the invention of the stirrup around 300 BC- one probably couldn't tell the difference between a Hun and a Mongol.

Its interesting that Bombard can't move or be built in the regular way, but I must have missed the discussion on that. Can you say again what that's for? Ditto for Zulus- you're keeping the associated wonders with some of this stuff a secret for now, I guess.

Sorry to be a pain, but you said you'd be glad to respond to challenges on what units to include or not include. Now I'm going to go and try to figure out how to get my graphics implemented into you mod, since I have lots of time today.

[graystone]

Theocracy to Fundamentalism - I've never been able to stay with one to get to the other!! They were too far apart in the CTPI mods... Be SURE there's a way to stay 'religious' with clerics etc.. all the way through the game if that's the choice someone will be making. Maybe Theocracy - Fundamentalism - Celestial Utopia? Theotopia?