Banana Embassy

[Maniac]

Fait-divers: xiang1jiao1 means banana.

[PJayTycy]

The Great Yang & His People - The Alpha Centurians,

Our nations have talked for many years now about the trading of technologies and co-ordinated efforts in the pursuit of science. The time has come for our nations to come together and make this dream real.

Our proposal is simple. Our nations will have a free and open exchange of technologies as they are discovered. Future studies will be co-ordinated by both nations. This arrangement is exclusive to the nations of Alpha Centuri and Team Banana. We should agree on a year, age or condition that either nation can walk away from this arrangement freely without harming our mutual friendship.

To show our earnest desire to start this co-ordinated pursuit of science we have included a list of our current scientific knowledge.

As of 2280:
Wheel
Agriculture
Mysticisim
Mining
Mediatation
Priesthood

We will have
Bronze Working in 7 turns

Team Banana shares your view that writing and alphabet will be a great technologies to pursue and we will go that route if you desire. But, the dream of the 7 Trees that I mentioned last time warns us that other tribes lurk in the fogs of this world and that all might not be as friendly as we have been to eachother - never mind the wolves and bears. What are your thoughts on Iron Working or Fission? (Those banana peels give me strange dreams)

Which of our technologies do you require? Which technologies can you send to us? What would you like our scientists to start studying after Bronze has been mastered? If you like the arrangement, what do you feel is a fair "walk away" condition?

If you are in general agreement I can draw up a simple treaty for our leaders to sign.

Yea Banana!
The Diplomatic Banana

The techs they list are exactly what we guessed in the foreign intelligence, but they forgot to mention they've already got animal husbandry. I do think it's not an intentional error, as they showed us their horses on previous pic. Or are horses shown with another tech

Our thoughts about iron working: well, we are researching that right now. I guess we can tell them that.

About Metal Casting: if we tell them we have that tech, they might realise they are a tasty target for us and build up their military. However, if we don't tell them, they'll soon find out we lied to them. I'd say we tell them we have the tech, but add some roleplay around it which prevents us from sharing that 1 tech, except at a very high price.

Because of our current tech lead and faster tech rate, I'd rather not agree on a "every tech we research will be shared" contract. Although Tassadar will probably like it's communistic ideology, I feel we don't need to give the bananas our techs for free. I'd rather agree to a contract where our tech offers are based on equal-tech-breakers.

They only have meditation and priesthood. They are researching bronze working, which we already have. Meditation and Priesthood are likely to be the only techs we might not already have when we can start sharing techs. That means they cannot realisticly expect us to give a 600+ tech to them in return, even if they know we have it (as long as they don't know we got it because their warrior defended our scout with his life against a lion ). So, they might ask for Iron Working or 2 small techs they don't have yet. I would prefer the latter, but I guess we won't be able to decline Iron Working if we agree to a tech-contract. Are our chokonus as good against swordsmen as they are against axemen ?

[binTravkin]

About Metal Casting: if we tell them we have that tech, they might realise they are a tasty target for us and build up their military. However, if we don't tell them, they'll soon find out we lied to them. I'd say we tell them we have the tech, but add some roleplay around it which prevents us from sharing that 1 tech, except at a very high price.

Let's 'forget' it just as the Bananas did with husbandry

I'd rather agree to a contract where our tech offers are based on equal-tech-breakers.

Exactly, equal beakers or equal usefullness.

Are our chokonus as good against swordsmen as they are against axemen ?

They are slightly less good.


Let's share info about the techs we have but 'forget' the metal casting bit. I doubt they have figured out we have it and even if they have a suspicion they are much more likely to believe that sudden boost in score came from something else.
We could even strenghten that illusion for our own good..


About tech sharing - alphabet seems quite far as of now, so we shouldn't start worrying about having to trade Iron Working before actually getting to using our chukonus.

For that matter we could even try to delay their research of Writing and subsequent Alphabet, by negotiating them to take different path (although I can hardly think of one).

Meanwhile, the road towards them should be ready before we start outputting chukonus, so we can take advantage of them asap.

[Lacero]

I suppose the horses could've been photoshopped onto the map? (!)

[Impaler[WrG]]

Well lets look at our timeline, the forge will be done soon and if we run an Enginer none stop from that point on we will have a GE in 34 turn and can pop him for instant Machinery and then build/chop/whip Chuks so were looking to have a War window opening in 40-45 turns. If we encourage them along a Writing+Alphabet path they probably be finishing it right as the window opens (note their lack of Potery) so we might be in a situation for getting the trades imediatly before backstabing them which can be very tricky (long negotiations delay D-day, massed troops may tip them off etc etc)

Also realize that if their going to have writing they WILL see MetalCasting as a possible trade with us on the window once they have pottery (which I would suspect they will research before writing). We would be found out at that point and much damage would be done possibly warning them of our agression and eliminating all chance of trading. They will have acess to stone and could throw up defensive walls faster then we could even march to their cities.

Thus we need to plan accordingly, either tell the truth or come up with an airtight lie. I dont think theirs any way we can say we researched MetalCasting ourselves unless we can conceal several other techs which would be of equal magnitude. One way of doing that would be to stop research 1 turn from completion on our next few techs (Iron working, Masonry, Fishing) and say now that we are researching Metal Casting and hope to have it finished in 20 or so turns, this just might be mathematicaly belivable but it has the downside of not giving us the imediate use of the Techs and we will probably be found out when we suddenly research them all in rapid succession. Additionaly to looks very bad because we would be revealing our Beeline to Machinery, though we may say its for the Collosus which we have mentioned before. The Bananas would probably be worried but would probably not realize how close we were to Machinery as they would calculate we need 30+ turns to make a GE or research Machinery outright when infact we will be on the brink of having it.

As far as tech trading I think our goal should be to aquire Meditation, Priesthood, Writing and Alphabet from the Bananas before we initiate War. We can trade them practicaly ALL our avilible tech except Machinery to get them too, they will infact be lulled into a false sense of security by our willingness to trade major miliary techs like IronWorking (bairly better then Axmen) and MetalCasting (useless without the time to build forges). Thus an All for All trade system realy wont be that damaging to us if were resolved to war with them.

I think our response should be...

Encourage them to go Writing Alphabet
Tell them our current list of techs but dont include Metal Casting.
We agree in principle to exchange all techs so long as they can provide us with roughly equaly usefull techs.
Make more inuendos about Animal Husbandry (are they now ashamed of it?)
Tell them we have been working on MetalCasting and it should be done in 17 turns. Then we will try for Collosus and research Fishing/Sailing and Masonry OR IronWorking. By the time they have Alphabet (we assume they will get pottery before Alphabet to accelerate their tech rate) we should be ready for a "4for4" deal (Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, Alphabet) for (Fishing, Sailing, Masonry OR IronWorking, MetalCasting). We can then plan for our next stage of trading.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Also realize that if their going to have writing they WILL see MetalCasting as a possible trade with us on the window once they have pottery (which I would suspect they will research before writing). We would be found out at that point and much damage would be done possibly warning them of our agression and eliminating all chance of trading. They will have acess to stone and could throw up defensive walls faster then we could even march to their cities.

That's the important issue ofcourse.

I think our response should be...

Encourage them to go Writing Alphabet
Tell them our current list of techs but dont include Metal Casting.
We agree in principle to exchange all techs so long as they can provide us with roughly equaly usefull techs.
Make more inuendos about Animal Husbandry (are they now ashamed of it?)
Tell them we have been working on MetalCasting and it should be done in 17 turns. Then we will try for Collosus and research Fishing/Sailing and Masonry OR IronWorking. By the time they have Alphabet (we assume they will get pottery before Alphabet to accelerate their tech rate) we should be ready for a "4for4" deal (Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, Alphabet) for (Fishing, Sailing, Masonry OR IronWorking, MetalCasting).

So, you suggest to tell them we are now researching Metal Casting and will only start researching IronWorking after Metal Casting, Fishing and Sailing. To make sure they don't find out about the lie, we'll have to be sure to finish Iron Working, Fishing and Sailing before they finish Bronze Working, Writing and Alphabet. We then have to tell them we researched Iron Working, Fishing, Sailing and Metal Casting in that time. I would not believe that... Or maybe I misunderstood what you wanted to tell the fruits.

[Senethro]

Request: When the time comes to pluck the bunch, we make an RP post about cannabalising them "so that they may become one with all the people".

[Impaler[WrG]]

We will research Fising, Masonry and IronWorking and maybe a bit of Archery and Polytheism up to 1 turn but not complete them, Basicaly we keep techs with a total beaker cost equal to MetalCasting hiden to compensate for the mathematical anomaly in our tech rate. By preventing thouse Techs from apearing on the trade screen, by the time Bananas get writing and Pottery for around 20-25 turns and see we have metalCasting and nothing else. They will conclude we spent all that time researching it as it just like we said we were as would have taken us that long to research it if we had started it right after AH. So when they are in a possition to verify what were saying everything will be consistent and we will basicaly have IronWorking and a few other techs up our sleve ready to pop out in one turn at a moments notice. They wont realize how devistatingly ahead in tech we are and will think they are safe from a Chuck attack because we will lack IronWorking, Archery and Machinery. Eventualy we anounce were going to research IronWorking and time it to pop in what seems a reasonable non agressive time frame to have researched it we then quickly found a city on the nearest Iron and peacefully trade the IronWorking with Banana. After trading for all the usefull Banana Techs we use the GE which should be finishing right about that point for Machinery, pop Archery and start whipping Chuk-O's like mad and hit the Bananas before they can prepare any kind of desent defence.

Maniac: Its just like the good old Cycon days all over again, I love being Machiavelian

[Chaos Theory]

We'll be taking a risk by partially committing to the CKN rush without a confirmed source of iron, but I don't mind that. We'll just have to think quickly if we finish Iron Working and find no usable iron. In case iron shows up, say, two tiles from one of our uncultured cities, we need to be able to put up a cultural building pretty quickly to bring it into our borders. Thus, we will want to have access to Writing and/or Mysticism by the time we want to build CKNs.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I though we had Mystisism, in any event we will trade for Writing with the Bananas and can whip a Library to push our borders. If theirs no Iron then theirs realy no chance of an attack as Swordsman would just get slautered by their Ax men. In such a senario we would call off the war and probably use our GE for a Wonder.

[Chaos Theory]

If there's no iron, then there will be no swordsmen. Based on the fact this map has been vetted by a person, there's likely a source or two of iron on this continent, just like we've seen with copper. We will see, however.

[binTravkin]

We have mysticism, yes, so obelisk wouldn't be a problem.

We will research Fising, Masonry and IronWorking and maybe a bit of Archery and Polytheism up to 1 turn but not complete them, Basicaly we keep techs with a total beaker cost equal to MetalCasting hiden to compensate for the mathematical anomaly in our tech rate. By preventing thouse Techs from apearing on the trade screen, by the time Bananas get writing and Pottery for around 20-25 turns and see we have metalCasting and nothing else. They will conclude we spent all that time researching it as it just like we said we were as would have taken us that long to research it if we had started it right after AH.

I didn't really get the whole plan, but my understanding is such that upon getting writing they will only see those techs, that they 'may' trade with us, which are likely to be Metal Casting, Iron Working (as of having bronze working), Fishing (if we have researched it), AH(if they really lack it) and Masonry (again if we have it).

In other words, we can only 'hide' techs that are 2 techs away from them, like probably Sailing and Machinery.

They wont realize how devistatingly ahead in tech we are and will think they are safe from a Chuck attack because we will lack IronWorking, Archery and Machinery. Eventualy we anounce were going to research IronWorking and time it to pop in what seems a reasonable non agressive time frame to have researched it we then quickly found a city on the nearest Iron and peacefully trade the IronWorking with Banana.

This would delay our iron source discovery and we can never know where the iron, is so once we know we must be ready to hook it up asap (most likely by settling there).


Probably we could tell them we have a tech half-researched so they don't get suspicious once they see our techs available for trade.


EDIT: In overall I think we shouldn't be rushing with answer this time - we can always think up some reason why and we need the time to decide how to avoid telling too much.

[Maniac]

Or we could simply not agree to a free flow of information. No need for elaborate lies then. Just tell what we told before: we plan to research up the naval and metal techs, and that we got Metal Casting from a goodie hut, hence our desire for the Kolos. They already know we want the Colossus and Great Lighthouse IIRC. Just tell them we don't want to give away techs for free, as financial we are faster researchers and the benefits of such an agreement would be too unequal.

Btw, isn't Iron Working a prerequisite for the Compass? Researching that would make sense then after Fishing and Sailing, if we present naval techs and exploration as our official goal. Hell, even Machinery as a prerequisite for Optics makes sense! So tell them we intend to research that tech after Sailing, and would be willing to trade it. Plenty of time to research just those three techs before they have Writing.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I didn't really get the whole plan, but my understanding is such that upon getting writing they will only see those techs, that they 'may' trade with us, which are likely to be Metal Casting, Iron Working (as of having bronze working), Fishing (if we have researched it), AH(if they really lack it) and Masonry (again if we have it).

Read what I'm typing, we DONT complete the techs, we switch research just before its completed. They dont see it as trade option because we wont have it completed. All they will see is MetalCasting and AH. IronWorking, Fishing and Masonry will be almost done and hiden from them regardless of what techs they have. We can hide any tech by not finishing it untill were ready to spring the trap.

Delaying Iron locating is an issue but their will be a window reserved for founding next to the Iron and getting it connected. Were not ready to found a city right now anyways so why not wait untill the time is ripe. I'd be quite suprized it their isn't Iron or if the only Iron is in Banana territory, inwhich case were screwed regardless of our choices.

[Maniac]

How long do you want to delay research of Iron Working? Until the Banana researches Writing? I fear our research will have already long started decaying then. We'll be losing resources just to maintain an unnecessary lie. Let's KISS: keep it simply stupid!