Banana Embassy

[Impaler[WrG]]

Research Decays?? Thats new to me, are you shure?

[Maniac]

Yes. Just like with production there's a research decay, to prevent tricks exactly like the one you're currently proposing. Don't know when it kicks in though. I guess it could be ten turns or so.

[PJayTycy]

I also don't like the artificial tech off-putting. I don't think it's ever benefitial to appear weaker than you are. When you appear stronger than you are, others don't even think about attacking you. If you appear weaker, you'll probably win a fight, but you still have to fight it.

Anyway, can't we just tell them we agree on principle to exchange (Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, Alphabet) for (Fishing, Sailing, Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Masonry, IronWorking). The total tech-cost for these is the same and they'll probably have to come out and tell us straight they already have animal husbandry.

meditation 114
priesthood 85
writing 171
alphabet 429
==============
total 799

fishing 57
sailing 143
ironworking 286
hunting 57
masonry 114
(animal husbandry 143)
================
total 800


If they agree, the won't be able to see we have Metal Casting, even after the tech trades (they don't have pottery yet). With these tech-goals, we confirm our early claims about sea-minded nation and give them the one tech they asked us to research : iron working. With masonry, we give them quarries for their stone.

We just have to tell them straight to their face we don't really feel like agreeing to such a very open contract, but do want to share techs on an equal basis, to be re-agreed on by both teams for every exchange. Just don't mention anything about us not disclosing which techs we have.

If they complain they already have animal husbandry, we can:
a) replace it by pottery, but then they DO see metal casting after the trade
b) agree to drop mediation from their list


btw: I'm not sure there is tech decay

[binTravkin]

Read what I'm typing, we DONT complete the techs, we switch research just before its completed. They dont see it as trade option because we wont have it completed. All they will see is MetalCasting and AH. IronWorking, Fishing and Masonry will be almost done and hiden from them regardless of what techs they have. We can hide any tech by not finishing it untill were ready to spring the trap.

ok, ok I got that.

The thing is they will be able to see our tech status by the time they get Alphabet, which is some 35+ turns away (7 turns for Bronze Working, some 10-13 for Writing and 20+ for Alphabet), which means we can delay them knowing about Metal Casting long enough, or tell them we've just researched it.


We could use the tech off-putting to a limit (I don't think the decay kicks in in 10 turns, I've been noticing no reduces in my games where I sometimes switch away from tech for up to 25 turns).


I agree with PJay's tech exchange plan, but

If they complain they already have animal husbandry, we can:
a) replace it by pottery, but then they DO see metal casting after the trade
b) agree to drop mediation from their list

B is out, we can't drop the prereq for other trade tech, so it's only A for us.


In general I think we could make them believe that:
1.We have researched Metal Casting only recently before they got Alphabet (depends on their intelligence abilities tho)
2.Metal Casting is for economic reasons (forge, engineer, Colossus should be enough to mention).


I also agree with Maniac, about elaborate webs of lies.
Let's keep as little actual lie as possible and instead try to convince that certain techs of ours are researched in peaceful intentions.

Just as said here:

With these tech-goals, we confirm our early claims about sea-minded nation and give them the one tech they asked us to research : iron working.

and here

With masonry, we give them quarries for their stone.

which can be played out as a rather friendly move like 'we see you have quarries to build and so do us, so let's research this next'.

[Chaos Theory]

We can feed the nanas a mostly-truth as part of concealing our possible path to war - we can tell them that we're pursuing a gamble, and don't want to fully share tech info, with the forums likely to open. Even if they don't intentionally give away our plans, we'd rather they not have the ability to do so accidentally.

It is quite true we're pursuing a gamble - two of them, in fact. We might be able to wage an advantageous war against the nanas, and we might be able to delay some key wonders (great lighthouse, colossus) without losing them.

[Senethro]

Wait a minute, have we forgotten that we're going to need Archery for chuks?

Also, I think we should open a thread for terraforming schemes, one high-production for if we're going to war and one high commerce for peace.

Also, we need to time our 3rd city for the finishing of of Iron working, yes?

[binTravkin]

Wait a minute, have we forgotten that we're going to need Archery for chuks?

PJay might have missed it or might have cleverly avoided mentioning it as if we go to war, it should be researched last (as much as possible synchronising with the GE), so that nanas have no suspicion..

Also, we need to time our 3rd city for the finishing of of Iron working, yes?

Rather our settler

Also, I think we should open a thread for terraforming schemes, one high-production for if we're going to war and one high commerce for peace.

There's not much to discuss on this topic at the moment - our capital has both sorts of terraforming already, the second city is likely to become production-heavy with cottages along river coastline and the third is not even on it's way on being built.

In general I think our war production should base itself on existing terraforming scheme, which is basically:
1.bonuses (and their respective improvements)
2.cottages on coast (for instant +3g!)
3.occassional extra mines where workforce frees up

Later we should consider windmills over mines, but that will already be around the time war starts or long after we've decided there will be no war.

[binTravkin]

No beaker decay.

Blake

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by binTravkin

Wait a minute, have we forgotten that we're going to need Archery for chuks?

PJay might have missed it or might have cleverly avoided mentioning it as if we go to war, it should be researched last (as much as possible synchronising with the GE), so that nanas have no suspicion..

I didn't include it in the tech trades, because I don't want the bananas to defend with archers if our Chokonu's arive.


The "urge" to build a third city will depend on the location of iron. If we see it in a "safe" position, we can time a settler for when we need it. However, if we see it in a contested position, we might put some more hurry for our third settler.

[Senethro]

We're going to want a 3rd city anyway, just for the sake of expansion, right? We've got enough space for it and might as well claim the marble/that nice grasslands/wheat spot north of the capital.

[binTravkin]

We're going to want a 3rd city anyway, just for the sake of expansion, right? We've got enough space for it and might as well claim the marble/that nice grasslands/wheat spot north of the capital.

Yes, 3rd city should come shortly, either as an iron hookup or first city to exploit our seaborne bonuses, which are to come with Colossus.

[Maniac]

Btw, in some 35 turns the Bananas will see a message "A Great Engineer has been born in Beijing." So they'll know we've had Metal Casting for a long while. And if they don't see us building a wonder the turn after, they'll also know we have Machinery and Cho Ko Nu's.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Ok lets get rolling on the response message, the concsensus seems to be that were going to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about our current techs and our research path? (Though I disagree with this course of action). Were also going to ask them to go for Writing and Alphabet and agree to trade techs on an equal pointage basis.

If you agree with said plan please affirm so and if anyone has a draft they would like to present do so as well, if *most* are ok with the points I have made above and no major objections are raised I'll compose and send a response.

[Lacero]

I will agree to that plan.

[Senethro]

I disagree. Do not reveal to them we have metal casting. There really is no need to let them know there is even a possibility of a chuk rush.