AC Diplomacy

[snoopy369]

Map trading via screenshot is entirely permitted so long as it is not edited-for-content. There's no problem with only sending a portion of your screenshot, as long as you don't say replace voxian culture with blank grassland.

I think the most honest and thus safest method for you to use is simply using photoshop/gimp or whatever to crop the image at the point you don't want to discuss. I have no problem with that whatsoever. The fact that it would be sort of blatant you'd have to address though

[snoopy369]

I'd also note that although direct fraud via photoshopping a fake map is probably unacceptable to the teams at large (and I'm not sure I'd go so far as to actually forbid it, though I'd ask a second opinion), there's no restriction against lying to someone (krill's last comment).

Just to make sure my moderatorial opinion is clear on this part. Deceit via the spoken word is perhaps an unfortunate part of MP/PBEM/Demogames, but I think it is part nonetheless, and certainly for some people it is an important aspect of their method of playing the game.

[notyoueither]

Actually, snoopy, we could agree with the others to trade 'clean maps' built in the editor and sans culture. There is no rule against it.

In fact, your own ruling requires us to discuss this. We are not to discuss relations with unmet teams, let alone give teams without contact a map to find each other.

[notyoueither]

Damn. I'm being hailed by Impaler. I'll do what I can to keep things on an even and friendly keel without allowing shots.

[notyoueither]

Chat with Impaler.

I'll let you read and propose conclusions before I give mine.

nye hi
nye i discovered an old install of mIRC. doesn't require registry entries, so it works
Impaler[WrG] and you made a private channel nice
nye i just double clicked on you. so private, yes.
Impaler[WrG] thanks for seeing me on such short notice
nye not a huge problem. is there something pressing?
Impaler[WrG] not realy, just the team is eager to get things moving
nye same over here.
Impaler[WrG] first let me ask just how much lee-way you have as diplomat with your team?
nye a little bit, but less than a lot. and you?
Impaler[WrG] I generaly compose our formal messages and then the team reviews them, their amended and sent
nye i can do a bit more than that
nye i can steer, but i can't force. i can come to agreements much like the american president, but they have to be ratified
nye i have some lee-way
Impaler[WrG] In this session I'm authorized to reveal various bits of info - mostly what we already told the Bananas, we can come up with tenative agreements but they will need to be ratified
nye i also have to take into account what the wishes of my team are before i discuss an issue, or we end up with absurdities that will not be ratified
Impaler[WrG] So are you the formal leader of your team?
nye i'm the 'captain' and the head diplomat. the grand poohbah is someone else
Impaler[WrG] I wonder.....
Impaler[WrG] well our teams currently got a rather informal leadership structure, a handfull of core member with no outright leader
Impaler[WrG] I'm one of the more active but have no more athority then anyone else
nye same here, but activity tends to lends authority so long as one has a good grasp on the team's desires
nye you wonder....
Impaler[WrG] true, DG's definatly reward activity
nye yes
Impaler[WrG] who your leader is... is it a secret?
nye No secret. Stormbringer
nye or do you mean President or some such?
nye the Grand Poobah is the turn player. What he/she does defines reality.
Impaler[WrG] well just the player who has the greatest influence on your overall game strategy, kind trying to make predictions and all
nye can't say that. there are too many. how about youse?
Impaler[WrG] well our overall long term strategy was hashed out rather early and agreed upon by everyone, the turn player realy dosn't have much lee-way
nye we sort of jyst bumble along, but there are a lot of us doing the bumbling
Impaler[WrG] and the short term strategy is hashed out by the group in various 5-year plan type proposalys
nye sounds very organised
Impaler[WrG] ok shall we proceed into some of the negotiation topics
nye sure
Impaler[WrG] except for Tassadar *wink
nye i don;t have very long though, so we might cover highlights and then resume on a later date
Impaler[WrG] ok what should we start off with, lets discuss geography
nye i used to be good at geography.
Impaler[WrG] We dont know much about the area to the south of our scout, we assume your territory is to the south?
nye yes, and we assume you are to the North
Impaler[WrG] actualy due north is Banana territory, have you not actualy come across their terriritory, aka your contact was scout-scout
nye actually, we see their cap quite clearly. it is our ne. i take it then you are more west
Impaler[WrG] yes the land mass extends westward and were their
nye i figured so
nye we didn't though
Impaler[WrG] be carfull though if your planning on scouting that way theirs a barbarian near the coast
nye thanks. what sort of barb?
Impaler[WrG] killed our starting warrior with a hostile native pop
nye those are bad
Impaler[WrG] yea our scouting was curtailed for some time
nye so, you said that you and banana have known each other for a long while, and that you are freindly
Impaler[WrG] ok well it dosn't sound like our territories are likly to ever come into contact, the area to the south of the Bananas is not claimed by us
nye then borders are easy.
Impaler[WrG] not likley I mean
Impaler[WrG] yes the Bananas scouted us and we've been friendly with them
nye if so, then you maust have some framework for cooperation. we would like to know how we could fit in
Impaler[WrG] we have some plans for tech exchange with them, but were open to expanding this into a 3way exchange
nye we like the sounds of that
Impaler[WrG] Your Civ is also financial correct
nye yes, and very defensive. fin-spir with skirmishers
Impaler[WrG] Mali isn't it?
nye yes
Impaler[WrG] yes Mali is one of my favorites
nye mine too.
Impaler[WrG] have Bananas asked/invited you to do tech trading as well?
nye our discussions with them have been disorganised. they are disorganised. i am not sure what exactly we have discussed
nye especially since key members of their team have left the game
Impaler[WrG] I can tell you that we and the bananas exchanged knowlage of each others techs and future research plans to optimize our trading, would GS be willing to do that?
Impaler[WrG] I'd understand if that would require ratification ofcorse
nye we would be open to that
Impaler[WrG] Could it be done right now?
nye could it? yes. should i? probably not. that would be going a little far.
Impaler[WrG] ok I understand
Impaler[WrG] we can work on doing that in the future
Impaler[WrG] ok lets see to trade
nye we would like to know, is one of you on the path to tach trading enabling tech now?
nye that has an impact
Impaler[WrG] yes but it will be quite some time before its ready
nye i would guess so
Impaler[WrG] are you planning on shooting for it yourself?
Impaler[WrG] its a bit early in the game to go for it
nye some of the prereps are being discussed
nye indeed, it is early given barbs and such
nye brb
nye as for trade, we are open to it. seems a while off though
Impaler[WrG] I can tell you that were doing well technologicaly, between us and Banana when we exchange their wont be a lot of stuff left
nye not so good news
Impaler[WrG] so If you want to get in on the exchange you will likly have to commit to b-lining what ever we and the Bananas haven't done
Impaler[WrG] or else you wont have anything to offer
nye is any of this open to negotiation?
Impaler[WrG] oh and incase you wondering we practice quid-pro-quo exchange with everyone
Impaler[WrG] certanly were open to negotiate tech exchanges with GS either 3-way with the Bananas or direct 2-way directly with you
nye quid-pro-quo. could you explain?
Impaler[WrG] equal lab points for equal lab points
Impaler[WrG] not a "all the techs you dont have" for "all the techs we dont have" style
nye i see. why then would the first to alpha trade it?
Impaler[WrG] its part of our agreement with Banana were exchanging it and several other techs
nye i see. so it is a done deal, and we are late comers
nye i'm not seeing how this arrangement helps us at all
Impaler[WrG] Its going ahead as of now but if its mutualy benificial you could be included
nye we would be interested in something with emphasis on mutually beneficial
Impaler[WrG] being financial your long term tech rate is strong so were shure you can have something usefull to offer
nye i'm sure we would
Impaler[WrG] Its just if you do very "flat" research you likly will just duplicate what we already have as each of us is bee-lining to reduce doubleing up as much as possible
nye there are a lot of lines in this game, which i am sure is one of things that attracted AC
Impaler[WrG] Its very possible to extend this to all three teams bee-lining for even greater efficiency
Impaler[WrG] SMAC still has more style :P
nye it would help if i had a proposal to take back to the team
nye who does what
Impaler[WrG] well were going to be able to sign open borders soon, so consider yourself formaly invited for that
nye ok
Impaler[WrG] we have a coastal city and if you had one two and explored the full coast stretch between them we could trade
Impaler[WrG] and we can exchange a map of our territory for a map of yours
nye the coatal cities could be worked towards. trade is good. brbr
Impaler[WrG] excelent
nye need to go soon
Impaler[WrG] ok then pick our last topic if their are any other issues
nye we have a lot to consider as is
Impaler[WrG] heres a question then
nye ok
Impaler[WrG] given your explorations is their any more continent to the south
nye yes, us
nye and ice
Impaler[WrG] aka have you found that your piece is it,
Impaler[WrG] their arn't any other teams on the continent
nye we see ice
Impaler[WrG] so I take it it extends very far south?
nye not far enough for us. we would like more space between us and banana
Impaler[WrG] so our scouts relitivly close to your territory if we keep headed south
nye how close are we to yours?
Impaler[WrG] rather far away
nye where you were when we ended turn...
Impaler[WrG] you would have to go north till you reached bananas then head west
nye if you go about 5 tiles south of there you start getting into places we regard as ours
nye we have reached bananas
Impaler[WrG] I belive were in a forest and you scout was just north of us
nye we're on the border of their capital
Impaler[WrG] theirs a river a bit to west, its the rough border between us and bananas
Impaler[WrG] in the sense we claim the land west of it
nye ok
Impaler[WrG] so you and bananas have not worked out a line of seperation between your lands yet?
Impaler[WrG] like some kind of 38th parrelel
nye from where your scout is, a little south you reach a banana city. beyond that we regard as ours
Impaler[WrG] realy a banana city south of our current scout !? thats very far from their capitol
nye yes, we noted it is quite far
Impaler[WrG] humm I see why your concerned about being squeezed territorily
nye indeed
Impaler[WrG] their Creative as well to boot
nye yes
Impaler[WrG] well I hope your able to grow none the less
nye we'll be ok.
nye have to go now. getting late and have to work
Impaler[WrG] no wild animals or things like that we should be cautious of
nye behind us? probably. a woddsman eats up jungle pretty quick
Impaler[WrG] the barb you need to avoid was last seen in the desert, steer northward and you should be fine
nye s of us you hit trees, then jungle. be careful of the panthers
Impaler[WrG] and Tigers
nye yes. and further south you might see the odd bear. damn *#!@'s
nye is there any chance you could send us a proposal re tech?
Impaler[WrG] we had managed to avoid one of thouse earlier, Bananas did not head our warning and got eaten
Impaler[WrG] a proposal for what you should reserach in order to have something we need you mean or just a listing of what we have?
nye the first is more useful, the second if you wish.
Impaler[WrG] well I can say right now that Monarchy and all of the stuff following Alphabet are things we would be looking to aquire in the future
nye ok. let me know if anything else strikes you
Impaler[WrG] k, anything your looking for?
nye for now? sleep.
nye i have a few things to do and then turn in
Impaler[WrG] haha, ok try to get aproval to do an exchange of know, and planned techs
nye ok
nye btw, do you have a log of this chat?
Impaler[WrG] lets plann on another such chat next week
Impaler[WrG] maybe a bit earlier
nye ok. do you have a log?
Impaler[WrG] I was just going to copy paste it when were done, I'll see if I can send you a copy by -mail
nye thanks\
Impaler[WrG] ok would you like/prever the next chat to be 3 way assuming I can set that up?
nye it would be good if you could set up 3way for the weekend
Impaler[WrG] k I'll see what I can do
nye ok.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, snoopy, we could agree with the others to trade 'clean maps' built in the editor and sans culture. There is no rule against it.

In fact, your own ruling requires us to discuss this. We are not to discuss relations with unmet teams, let alone give teams without contact a map to find each other.

During the screenshot/map trading discussions, I recall some concern about fraudulent maps - thus I mention what I mentioned.

However, it has been very much the case that trading maps/screenshots of other's territory is acceptable. That has been made quite clear throughout the game and was made clear from the time in which teams agreed that map/screenshot trading was acceptable at any point.

Thus, it is definitely acceptable to trade a map/screenshot with Vox on it; it is acceptable to 'cut' Vox out of the screenshot, as long as you don't imply there is something there that is not Vox; and it is iffy if you were to imply something but not Vox were there (as it would be, at least by technical definition, a fraudulent screenshot). I'd certainly ask Aeson for his second opinion on this, if you desire to do that. I'd probably also go back and look at the thread(s) where screenshot trading was discussed.

[notyoueither]

Please ask Aeson. It is time this absurdity comes to an end.

From what I understand, we are not to discuss relations with civs not yet met and should not mention they exist, but we can trade screen-shots with them plainly visible.

This is incoherent.

[snoopy369]

Well, don't blame me for the absurdity. It's what was agreed on pre-game, or by and large agreed by people failing to agree on things but yet not wanting any one person to make decisions on what's allowed ... sigh ... That's why I decided the only coherent answer was, you may not discuss contact with other teams not in contact with said teams, unless you've traded screenshots showing that team. That at least is coherent, if a bit odd.

Do you desire to trade screenshots that are visually altered in a way that does not consist of cropping parts of them off?

[snoopy369]

:shudder: You just made me reread some of Enigma_Nova's posts ... that should be adequate grounds for some sort of Mingification

Upon rereading the more coherent and less ... um ... E_N ... posts way back when, I note that around half of the players (on various teams) suggested that the possibility of 'doctored' screenshots enhanced the value of game mechanics, and thus presumably are okay with said screenshots. That's rather more than I recall from the original game discussion, which is probably because my brain seems to have trouble making connections between neurons these days. Sigh.

Anyhow, I withdraw my explicit objection to a doctored screenshot, with the note that I suspect some teams would consider it not fair play to give a substantially doctored (not cropped, but showing tiles that are factually incorrect) screenshot. However, given that only half or so of the posters who posted an opinion on the matter seemed to object, it's not grounds to forbid it per se.

[Krill]

Anyhow, I withdraw my explicit objection to a doctored screenshot, with the note that I suspect some teams would consider it not fair play to give a substantially doctored (not cropped, but showing tiles that are factually incorrect) screenshot. However, given that only half or so of the posters who posted an opinion on the matter seemed to object, it's not grounds to forbid it per se.

Oh definately. Myself included, which is why I'd rather just cover up Vox with FoW and say we were only trading screenshots of the northern peninsula, defined to exclude anything of Vox, and not of all uncovered land.

[Arrian]

I hate this

given your explorations is their any more continent to the south
nye yes, us
nye and ice
Impaler[WrG] aka have you found that your piece is it,
Impaler[WrG] their arn't any other teams on the continent
nye we see ice

Technically, we *must* say this. We aren't supposed to reveal the existance of Vox. By the way, apparently Banana revealed our existance to AC before we met them. Obviously, we were going to meet them soon anyway, but still that's technically in violation of the rules, no? Or is bending the rules a bit ok?

I fear that once Vox's existance comes to light (and it will, as they will meet Banana at some point soon), AC/Banana will regard us as less than truthful. We have to make it clear that we were operating under our understanding of the rules.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

From the Rules thread:

CONTACT


No team may have game-related discussions with a team they have not met in game. This means you can click on their team name in-game and open the trade dialogue.

Teams should not discuss their relations with a third team that has not contacted one of the teams. May teams discuss having contact with a third team but not mention the team's name?

That last sentence is in red, indicating something undecided. I didn't read the whole thread, but is that still a question mark? It seems that 'nana already decided that it was ok to mention they had met us (or just met "another team") to AC. I can't really blame them, given the ambiguity.

Given that, do we wish to continue to pretend that there are no other civs? Again, barring a lucky (for us) panther hit on their warrior, Vox will bump into Banana soon and the secret will be out.

-Arrian

[snoopy369]

Nana accidentally revealed that there was another civ out there, they did not reveal your name specifically. I spoke with them about it already

[Hot Mustard]

Seems to me all teams should be warned against asking the question - then there will be no bad reflections on those who stick to the rules.

[Aeson]

I wasn't part of most of the pre-game discussions. But, given the rules decided upon before the game:

Until Vox and AC are aware of the other's presence through allowed channels, you can't discuss the third party.

Screenshots (modified, doctored, or not) are allowed to be traded.

I agree this creates a rather sticky and unnecessary situation. Technically, given the wording of "contact" in the rule, AC could be made aware of Vox via screenshot, and you still wouldn't be able to discuss them. Though with careful wording you could avoid breaking the rule while discussing plans for "areas on the map", which the info in the screenshot would fill in the blanks. For example: instead of, "GS is choking Vox", "GS has Skirmishers controling the areas [some coord system noted on screenshot]" would convey the same message.

Given the circumventable nature of the rule once screenshots are traded, and snoopy's earlier interpretation, I think it would be ok to allow discussion of any features (including civs who's borders/units are visible) in a screenshot you have traded, and using the team name (Vox) in any of your discussions about plans that could otherwise be referenced to areas on the screenshot you have traded. Just as a means of eliminating unnecessary complexity in discussions.