AC Diplomacy

[Krill]

posted now cos I can't be arsed to wait for a log to be posted.

yes, AC want alpha, yes, they are a **** load closer than we are to it. Yes, thy ofered us IW.

Polytheism for AH is fair, 143 for 143, and they want the GL, so they need polytheism.

IW for archery and masonary is a push, but IW+alpha for maths/masonary/mono/archery is not...only problem is that we don;t want to do mono :s

[notyoueither]

Chat log.

Session Start: Sat Dec 09 18:21:21 2006
Session Ident: #ignore
[18:21] * Now talking in #ignore
[18:21] N35t0r> not me
[18:21] Impaler[WrG]> problem is that I told the other teams we would be meeting in #Negotiations channel, what if they cant find us
[18:21] Impaler[WrG]> never mind
[18:22] * nye_away is now known as nye
[18:22] Impaler[WrG]> no msn here either
[18:22] N35t0r> we're still on #apolyton, we'll message them when they get there
[18:22] Impaler[WrG]> sounds good
[18:22] nye> have you ever chatted with nana?
[18:22] N35t0r> I can keep a look
[18:22] N35t0r> Impaler has, he's our dip guy
[18:23] N35t0r> I'm the one that pesters by posting opinions without having acces to the game
[18:23] Impaler[WrG]> I think he is asking if we IRC chated with them, the aswer is no, I never felt the need with the slow pace of the early game
[18:24] nye> who was your contact earlier?
[18:24] Impaler[WrG]> Ok first off I need to know, NYE did you get aproval from your team mates to discuss tech plans/trades and such stuff
[18:25] nye> i have some leeway. is banana showing up for this?
[18:26] Impaler[WrG]> Maniac did Diplomacy in the very begining but then he got bored and I took over
[18:26] nye> no, who was your contact with banana?
[18:26] nye> *on banana
[18:26] Impaler[WrG]> Were still quite early, I could send them a PM
[18:26] nye> ok
[18:27] Impaler[WrG]> I dont realy know to be honest, they comunicate by the colective G-mail inbox and just sign "Banana Diplomate"
[18:28] Impaler[WrG]> dosn't look like any of the Bananas are loged onto Poly
[18:28] nye> PRex contacted me earlier via GMail chat
[18:29] Impaler[WrG]> I belive Platapus Rex will be their representative
[18:29] Krill> will, or is?
[18:29] N35t0r> Well, he hasn't arrived yet
[18:29] Impaler[WrG]> well I just messaged him cause he was the turn player
[18:30] Krill> 'k. thanks for that
[18:30] * N35t0r sets mode: +ooo Impaler[WrG] Krill nye
[18:30] Impaler[WrG]> though the last banana turn was played by some other guy
[18:31] Impaler[WrG]> the official chat period is 3:00 to 5:00 GMT
[18:31] N35t0r> Technical note: You've all got op powers, in case I get sleepy and go to bed (I'm in italy ATM, so it's 2:30 AM)
[18:31] nye> thaks, N35t0r
[18:32] Impaler[WrG]> and its only 1:30 GMT so the Nans have plently of time to show up
[18:32] N35t0r> Double-clicking on the main channel screen (in mIRC at least) you can see the channel has a password (milking) and is secret (checkbox)
[18:32] nye> main channel screen in mIRC?
[18:32] N35t0r> where all the text is
* Retrieving #ignore modes...
[18:33] N35t0r> this means it will not be seen on /list , and that a password is needed for entry
[18:33] Impaler[WrG]> I'm using XChat client
[18:34] N35t0r> if you want to get anyone else inside here, /j #ignore milking should do it
[18:34] nye> brb
[18:34] Impaler[WrG]> k I'll tell the Nanas when I see em
[18:34] N35t0r> just pm them the piece of text, using ctrl+enter
[18:35] Impaler[WrG]> I hope bintravin can make it
[18:35] Impaler[WrG]> he would be good at working out all the little details
[18:36] N35t0r> ctrl + enter if you just send them "/j ignore milking", as otherwise it'll take you here rather than send the text
[18:40] Impaler[WrG]> ok well nothing to do now but wait for Nanas
[18:40] Impaler[WrG]> or we can try to come up with some small talk
[18:41] nye> on what turn will your space ship be completed?
[18:41] nye>
[18:42] N35t0r> When the modern armor finishes building
[18:43] Impaler[WrG]> OH NO THEY HAVE DISCOVED TEH SECRET PLANS!!!
[18:44] Impaler[WrG]> ok I see Bintravin is loged on, I posted a notice on the forum for him to come here
[18:44] Impaler[WrG]> oh wait he is in Belgum its like 3:00 am their
[18:44] N35t0r> 2:45
[18:45] Impaler[WrG]> So N ware in Italy are you?
[18:46] N35t0r> Milano ATM
[18:46] Impaler[WrG]> traveling?
[18:46] N35t0r> yup
[18:47] N35t0r> visiting europe
[18:48] Impaler[WrG]> so you hail from whare, you profile says Argentina?
[18:48] N35t0r> my profile says ( o Y o )
[18:48] N35t0r> but yeah, argentina
[18:48] Impaler[WrG]> Neato, reminds me of a story
[18:49] Impaler[WrG]> My grandmother was italian
[18:49] * Maniac has joined #ignore
[18:49] Impaler[WrG]> her father followed a brother who had emigrated to the US
[18:49] Maniac> my my
[18:50] N35t0r> that was fast
[18:50] * N35t0r sets mode: +o Maniac
[18:50] Impaler[WrG]> that brother had been proceeded by another brother who had tried to emigrate to argentina
[18:50] Maniac> what was?
[18:50] N35t0r> Argentina
[18:50] Impaler[WrG]> but the boat sank imediatly off shore (of italy)
[18:50] Maniac> and Chili!
[18:50] N35t0r> your enterin this channel
[18:51] N35t0r> wow
[18:51] N35t0r> *entering
[18:51] Impaler[WrG]> he narrowly escaped with his life and ofcorse never got on a boat the rest of his life
[18:51] Maniac> really? I had to tried twice even - could've been double as fast
[18:52] Impaler[WrG]> if not for that he would have been in argentina and then his brother would have followed and my whole maternal grandmothers family would be in Argentina
[18:52] N35t0r> did you try /listing afore?
[18:52] Maniac> no, just wrote /join #ignore first
[18:52] N35t0r> without the pw?
[18:52] Impaler[WrG]> ok now that I'm done with the story
[18:52] Impaler[WrG]> Hi Maniac!!
[18:52] Maniac> hi ;-)
[18:53] Maniac> Impaler the Argentinian
[18:53] Impaler[WrG]> tha almost Argentine
[18:53] Impaler[WrG]> is it Argentine or Argentinian?
[18:53] N35t0r> both work
[18:53] Maniac> depends on language I'd say
[18:53] Maniac> Argentijns
[18:54] Maniac> in Dutch
[18:54] N35t0r> silly dutch
[18:54] Maniac> yeah I know
[18:54] Maniac> Belgians are better
[18:54] Impaler[WrG]> j is like g in Dutch?
[18:54] N35t0r> only because of waffles and beer
[18:55] Impaler[WrG]> mmmm waffles *tough hangs from mouth*
[18:55] N35t0r> belgian waffles are teh w00t
[18:55] Maniac> Imp: no - ij is a vowel - can't really think of an English equivalent
[18:55] Impaler[WrG]> yes but its a pain to get them cooked right at IHOP, they dont get them crunchy
[18:56] Impaler[WrG]> they make them all soft and doughy like its a pancake
[18:58] Impaler[WrG]> Hey you guys into Civ4 moding?
[18:58] Maniac> yes
[18:58] Maniac> I'll give a link
[18:58] Maniac> it's a mod of a mod actually
[18:58] Maniac> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192096
[18:59] Maniac> Fall from Heaven: Rise of Mania
[18:59] Maniac> try it ;-)
[19:00] * N35t0r sets mode: +p-s
[19:00] Impaler[WrG]> interesting, I've never played FFH because I'm not into the fantacy stuff but I've heard its quite good
[19:01] Impaler[WrG]> Do you code?
[19:01] Maniac> it offers much more diverse strategies than the standard game - radically different playstyles per civ. I'd say have a look since you look SMAC different playstyles
[19:01] Maniac> nope just XML and python
[19:02] Maniac> *look like
[19:03] Impaler[WrG]> I'm not good with python but I'm wiz at the C++ layer, I've been running the CCCP project or what was left of it after it kinda collapsed
[19:03] Maniac> yeah I know - a pity :-(
[19:03] Impaler[WrG]> the aim is to do non-gameplay changing extentions on the DLL, like adding new tags that are completly optional
[19:03] Maniac> but your stuff can definitely be used for C4:AC
[19:04] Impaler[WrG]> yes I also hope that project can be completed but so far its been staled
[19:05] N35t0r> I fully intend to start delving into modding civ 4 when i get back
[19:06] Impaler[WrG]> Did you hear about Trips solicitation of user mods for inclusion in the second expantion pack, I'm going to see if I cant get some of my code included
[19:07] N35t0r> lol, I wonder if they'll stop at two expansion packs this time...
[19:07] Impaler[WrG]> if they sell they will make them
[19:07] Maniac> they're probably looking more for scenarios I guess
[19:07] N35t0r> lol 'sell' LOL
[19:13] Impaler[WrG]> nye you their?
[19:13] nye> i'm around
[19:14] Impaler[WrG]> how long will you be able to stick around?
[19:14] nye> not sure.
[19:15] nye> what time were we supposed to start according to you and nana?
[19:15] Impaler[WrG]> in an hour
[19:15] nye> i'll still be here then
[19:15] Krill> blah
[19:16] Krill> night all
[19:16] nye> g'night
[19:16] N35t0r> g'night krill
[19:16] Maniac> wait!
[19:16] Impaler[WrG]> k, just that Maniac thinks he may have to go and he didn't want to miss out
[19:17] Impaler[WrG]> so lets get all non 3 way type matters cleared up now
[19:17] nye> what is not 3-way related?
[19:17] Impaler[WrG]> stuff thats just bi-lateraly between Storm and AC
[19:18] Impaler[WrG]> like a map exchange
[19:18] Impaler[WrG]> I belive I mentioned it last time, have you guys thought it over?
[19:18] nye> i see. what sorts of agreements do you and nana have now?
[19:20] nye> if i may be honest with you. my sniffer is going overdrive
[19:20] Impaler[WrG]> we have some loose borders and some mutualy respected claims on land and the tech trading plan
[19:20] N35t0r> sniffer?
[19:20] Maniac> is that a dog or an electronic device?
[19:20] nye> describing communications with nana as a shambles would be being charitable
[19:21] nye> we came here to discuss among 3 teams, but it seems we are down to 2
[19:21] N35t0r> They're not answering much?
[19:21] Impaler[WrG]> their rather slow to respond to comunications thats true, but their answers are coherent
[19:21] nye> they claim to be almost incapable of answering
[19:21] nye> PRex claims to know nothing of chat otyher than MSN
[19:22] nye> this despite they invited us to chat through Yahoo
[19:22] Impaler[WrG]> he dosn't read the G-mail inbox?
[19:22] nye> we get incoherent messages about messages we never sent
[19:23] Maniac> hmm
[19:23] nye> but there seems to be no shortage of AC to chat with...
[19:24] nye> given the above, i feel it would be best for GS to withdraw until we can find out just what exactly is going on with the 2 civs we are prepared to talk to
[19:24] Impaler[WrG]> well I guess thats a complement on my diplo skills
[19:24] Impaler[WrG]> why do you feel you should do that?
[19:24] nye> hense, my sniffer is going overdrive. i smell being played
[19:25] Maniac> ??
[19:25] Maniac> you mean what exactly are AC-Banana relations?
[19:25] Impaler[WrG]> You suspect the situation is some kind of ruse?
[19:26] nye> i have to
[19:26] nye> the level of competence of banana communications has been so bad that it could only be intentional
[19:26] nye> so i must ask myaself, why?
[19:27] Maniac> might be but what does that have to do with us?
[19:27] Impaler[WrG]> Why would they do that, act incoherent on purpose?
[19:28] nye> good question, Impaler, and I'd like to know the answer...
[19:28] nye> but given the state of affairs, can you blame us for being a little less than forthcoming?
[19:28] Maniac> and you're gonna get that answer by not talking to us?
[19:28] Impaler[WrG]> Well my guess is their activity level is low and the left had dosn't know what the right is doing
[19:29] nye> here i am talking, Maniac. what remains to be seen is what i would be willing to talk about
[19:29] nye> i am being honest with you about a concern of GS. That's a start, yes?
[19:31] Impaler[WrG]> ok I agree voicing your concern is honest
[19:32] Impaler[WrG]> dose Storm fear some kind of Banana-AC aliance?
[19:32] nye> we can't discount the possibility
[19:32] Impaler[WrG]> and your trying to figure out exact nature of our relationship
[19:33] Maniac> why would we want to harm you lol?
[19:34] nye> we are faced with the prospect that a team that can't chat, can't use email meaningfully somehow has a comprehensive agreement for the trade of all the ancient age techs (for all we know)
[19:34] N35t0r> With four civs (very possibly) on the other continent, we should cooperate on this one
[19:34] nye> susopicious?
[19:34] N35t0r> The bananas haven't been answering us lately, we could consider dropping the tech exchange proposal with them if we can get a similar deal with you. We can always add in the nanas whenever they feel like answering
[19:34] Impaler[WrG]> I can tell you what I've already told you we have been friendly with them
[19:36] Impaler[WrG]> as my colleges stated the bananas do take ex exorbedent amount of time comunicating
[19:36] nye> N35t0r, you would drop your deal with nana?
[19:37] Impaler[WrG]> I've asked them to let us speak without interuption
[19:37] Impaler[WrG]> As you can see some on AC are as anoyed with the Bananas as you guys are
[19:38] nye> i see
[19:38] Impaler[WrG]> but realize we have been sending back and forth comunications for more then a month with them
[19:39] Impaler[WrG]> we have tenative tech trade proposals being worked on with the bananas
[19:39] nye> tentative?
[19:39] Impaler[WrG]> the exact techs that will be ready by the time alphabet is researched are not well established
[19:40] Impaler[WrG]> theirs also the need to balance points equily
[19:41] Impaler[WrG]> We are willing to trade with Storm under the same rules and with equal access, we will not show any favoratism
[19:41] nye> ok. so where are we?
[19:41] nye> all trades are open?
[19:42] Impaler[WrG]> as in all techs are open for trade, none would be off the table?
[19:43] nye> yes
[19:45] Impaler[WrG]> so long as the other team can present equal beaker value worth of techs that the other needs we agree to that
[19:46] Impaler[WrG]> ofcorse their would be some little IOC's between trades to "make change"
[19:46] * Maniac is now known as MarkG
[19:46] * Krill is now known as settler
[19:46] Impaler[WrG]> Haha you cant fool me Maniac
[19:46] nye> IOC's?
[19:46] Impaler[WrG]> IOU's sorry
[19:47] * settler is now known as Krill
[19:47] nye> so, we would discuss a 2 way deal for tech trades?
[19:47] Impaler[WrG]> like if we trade a 100 point tech for a 90 point tech, their a 10 point IOU that should be made up on the next trade
[19:48] nye> no-trade clauses?
[19:48] Impaler[WrG]> if either side wants them ofcorse
[19:48] nye> when are banana due here?
[19:49] Krill> c. 15 mins
[19:49] Impaler[WrG]> They should be here soon, but I would not be wholy suprized if they dont show
[19:49] nye> i will go grab a cup of coffee and see if they make it
[19:49] Impaler[WrG]> k
[19:50] N35t0r> Tea
[19:56] * MarkG is now known as Maniac
[20:00] * Maniac is now known as joncha
[20:00] * Krill is now known as Asher
[20:01] * Asher is now known as Krill
[20:01] * joncha is now known as Drogue
[20:01] * Krill is now known as Sid
[20:02] * Drogue is now known as Brian
[20:02] * Sid is now known as Sid_Meier_aka_God
[20:05] * N35t0r is now known as YOUR_FACE
[20:07] * YOUR_FACE is now known as N35t0r
[20:08] * Sid_Meier_aka_God is now known as Krill
[20:08] Impaler[WrG]> ok Bananas are officialy late, if their a no show what do you want to do NYE?
[20:08] nye> i'm thinking of the possibilities
[20:09] Brian> wasn't there some thought about telling each other what techs we have?
[20:09] Impaler[WrG]> My plan had been that all the teams would reveal what techs they currently posses
[20:10] Impaler[WrG]> and then we brainstorm on Beelines
[20:10] nye> that would be premature, given the circumstances. how do we know this is not part of a plan?
[20:10] nye> who is brian?
[20:10] * Brian is now known as Maniac
[20:10] Impaler[WrG]> thats just Maniac messing around
[20:10] Maniac> read the apolyton channel ;-)
[20:10] nye> ok. i see. i was getting coffee
[20:11] N35t0r> If we want to trade techs, one of us has to head for alphabet.
[20:11] Impaler[WrG]> well as AC is in the stronger tech position its actualy us who take more risk in such a situation
[20:12] nye> this is true
[20:12] nye> i do have a few questions
[20:12] Impaler[WrG]> ask away
[20:13] nye> is there a lot of land up there?
[20:13] Maniac> wanna trade maps? :-D
[20:13] nye> i ask this beacuse we would like to see a border around where nana put their second city. is that acceptable to ac?
[20:14] Impaler[WrG]> well define a lot, we have enough
[20:14] Impaler[WrG]> a border between us or with Banana?
[20:14] nye> one moment
[20:14] nye> border in general
[20:15] Impaler[WrG]> I dont understand we hace a border with Bananas and their in the middle, your border with them would seem to be independent of us
[20:15] nye> you see nana second city now, yes?
[20:15] Impaler[WrG]> yes we found it just like you said
[20:16] nye> would you and nana have enough room if there were a border at that city?
[20:17] Impaler[WrG]> I cant speack for them, but I would presume thats a reasonable amount of land for them
[20:17] nye> one mioment
[20:17] Impaler[WrG]> they could build a good half dozen cities with whats north of that
[20:21] nye> can i ask, did it ever occur to ac to just kill nana?
[20:22] Impaler[WrG]> Every possible strategic options was explored
[20:23] nye> ok
[20:23] Impaler[WrG]> as I'm shure your team has done too
[20:24] nye> we look at scenarios
[20:24] nye> may i propose a scenario?
[20:25] Impaler[WrG]> certanly
[20:25] nye> first, how stable do you think a 3-civ continent would be?
[20:26] Impaler[WrG]> It would depend on how mutualy benificial the relationship was and how great any external threat was
[20:26] nye> my experience is they are not very stable. 2 undoubtedly go for 1
[20:27] nye> usually the 2 who are most afraid of the other
[20:27] N35t0r> Like the C3CISDG?
[20:27] Impaler[WrG]> that would be logical
[20:27] nye> yes, like that
[20:27] Impaler[WrG]> shhh please
[20:27] Krill> I was going Krill = n00b?
[20:28] Krill> I was going to say...
[20:28] nye> if i could assure you that the other continent is 3 civ, and GS cares not much for the fate of nana, what would your response be?
[20:32] Impaler[WrG]> I would say we dont try to regulate your relationship with them, we would not get involved
[20:32] nye> ok
[20:32] nye> we would say the same
[20:34] Impaler[WrG]> AC seeks to have friendly relations with everyone for tech trading
[20:34] Impaler[WrG]> and trade
[20:35] nye> alright. i came here for 3 way talks. those are not to be, it seems. would ac want to have 2 way talks?
[20:35] Maniac> duh
[20:35] Impaler[WrG]> its seems thats all were left with
[20:35] nye> may we resume tomorrow afternoon in NA?
[20:36] nye> i need time to confer with my team due to changed circumstances
[20:36] Impaler[WrG]> I'm going to be indisposed tomorrow, I was hoping to finish tonight
[20:36] nye> unfortunate.
[20:37] Impaler[WrG]> I take it then your not ready to do tech trade talks?
[20:37] nye> on bahalf of gs, i would like to explore ways for ac and gs to cooperate for mutual benefit. however, i feel i should discuss the changing landscape with my team
[20:38] nye> tech trade talks? maybe...
[20:38] nye> where would we start?

[notyoueither]

[20:38] nye> where would we start?
[20:38] Maniac> by telling what we have?
[20:38] Maniac> and plan to research?
[20:38] nye> i think we could begin with what we each have
[20:39] nye> as a show of faith
[20:39] Impaler[WrG]> yes as Maniac says thats the most logical means
[20:39] nye> who goes first?
[20:39] N35t0r> Agreeing on who should research alphabet should be the start...
[20:39] Impaler[WrG]> We can go first
[20:40] nye> what of N35t0r's proposal?
[20:40] Impaler[WrG]> that will depend on who is closest/fastest
[20:40] nye> ok
[20:41] Impaler[WrG]> let me pull up a tech tree
[20:43] nye> btw, before anyone says anything...
[20:44] Impaler[WrG]> go on
[20:44] nye> this information is not to be disclosed to any other team. agreed?
[20:44] Impaler[WrG]> if by the Nanas they already know or are you talking a 4th team?
[20:45] Impaler[WrG]> ok I guess IF you know a 4th team dont tell them and we agree to keep everything you say confidential
[20:45] nye> any other team. there are large areas we know little of. i would suspect the same is true for ac
[20:45] Impaler[WrG]> ok shall I continue
[20:45] nye> to be clear. this information is not to be disclosed to any other team. agreed?
[20:46] Impaler[WrG]> agreed
[20:46] nye> agreed
[20:46] Impaler[WrG]> on my Centaurian honor
[20:46] Maniac> on my Spartan honour
[20:46] Maniac> oh wait
[20:46] nye> hehe
[20:47] Impaler[WrG]> We have......
[20:48] Impaler[WrG]> farming, mining, mystisism, hunting, the wheel, pottery, bronze working, animal husbandry, iron working
[20:48] nye> We have Agri, Wheel, Pottery, Hunting, Archery, Myst, Mining, Broze Working
[20:48] Impaler[WrG]> yep thats about what we expected
[20:49] nye> same here. we saw huts
[20:49] nye> you are on writing?
[20:49] Impaler[WrG]> you got pottery early to develop your finacial trait
[20:49] Impaler[WrG]> yep, and you
[20:49] nye> yep
[20:50] Krill> gateway tech and all that
[20:50] nye> you are going writing, alphabet
[20:50] nye> ?
[20:50] Impaler[WrG]> your currently researching?
[20:50] Krill> writting
[20:51] nye> sorry, i thought i answered that with the second 'yep' i should have been clearer
[20:51] Impaler[WrG]> oh I see
[20:52] Impaler[WrG]> were about 4 turns to go I think
[20:52] nye> ok. we are farther
[20:52] Impaler[WrG]> almost done
[20:53] nye> problem is we have to do it to get where we are going
[20:53] Impaler[WrG]> whats your ETA to Alphabet if you did that next?
[20:54] nye> longer than you since you are farther along
[20:54] nye> ~30 turns
[20:54] Impaler[WrG]> I though you said you were further along?
[20:55] nye> s
[20:55] nye> s
[20:55] nye> nye> longer than you since you are farther along
[20:55] Impaler[WrG]> ok
[20:56] Impaler[WrG]> whom would you prefer research alphabet?
[20:57] nye> seesm to be yours, since you are closer
[20:58] Impaler[WrG]> I think my team would prefer you guys research it as were interested in doing some other stuff imediatly following writing
[20:58] nye> heh. same here
[20:59] Impaler[WrG]> were planning on developing fishing sailing then masonry
[20:59] Maniac> perhaps the question could then be: what would you guys like to have?
[20:59] Maniac> there you already know ours ;-)
[20:59] nye> we can cover masonry for you
[21:00] nye> it is in our plans
[21:00] Impaler[WrG]> and what else are you planning
[21:01] Impaler[WrG]> we can trade you Iron working when were able too
[21:01] nye> yes
[21:01] Impaler[WrG]> good for chopping through thouse infernal jungles
[21:02] nye> we are planning writing-math-masonry-cionstruction
[21:02] Maniac> w00t
[21:02] Impaler[WrG]> sounds good
[21:02] nye> this fits well, then?
[21:03] Impaler[WrG]> I think so
[21:03] nye> very good
[21:03] nye> you would do writing-alpha-fishing-sailing?
[21:03] Impaler[WrG]> we might modify our plans by droping masonry
[21:04] Impaler[WrG]> I'd have to get aproval from my team to do alphabet
[21:04] Impaler[WrG]> but its an idea
[21:04] nye> ok.
[21:05] nye> we should both post, let the teams mull it over, and see how we can help each other
[21:05] Impaler[WrG]> some of our team members are interested in the Great Library so I could see us going Liturature
[21:05] nye> ok
[21:06] Impaler[WrG]> ok are their any wonders your planning to aim for in the near future
[21:06] nye> not any fixed on
[21:06] Impaler[WrG]> so we can avoid steping on each others efforts
[21:07] nye> are you on one now?
[21:07] Impaler[WrG]> were interested in the Great Lighthouse, Great Library and Collosus
[21:07] nye> or planning to be on one soon?
[21:08] Impaler[WrG]> not on any right now, might start one up in 20 or so turns
[21:08] nye> as are we. maybe we, but no immediate plans. perhaps we could revist the topic
[21:08] Impaler[WrG]> light house after we get the masonry would be the earliest
[21:09] nye> ok.
[21:09] Impaler[WrG]> brb
[21:09] Maniac> we like wonders :-)
[21:10] nye> they are popular ;-)
[21:12] Impaler[WrG]> having a comparitive advantage in building the (industrious) we naturaly will be trying for a few of them
[21:12] nye> that is logical
[21:13] Impaler[WrG]> ok I think we made a lot of progress on that issue
[21:13] Krill> night all, need sleep, have to be up in 5 hours
[21:13] * Krill has quit IRC (Quit: )
[21:13] Impaler[WrG]> night
[21:13] nye> he wastes no time
[21:14] Impaler[WrG]> ok what else would you like to discuss
[21:14] nye> yes, a lot of progress
[21:15] nye> you mentioned a trade of maps.
[21:15] Impaler[WrG]> yes thats right, would Storm like to do that?
[21:15] nye> one moment. have to check something
[21:16] nye> left gmail open. wanted to check for messages from nana
[21:17] nye> we should maybe hold off until i have discussed with the team. when could you resume?
[21:17] Impaler[WrG]> it looks like their is a Banana online now
[21:17] Impaler[WrG]> the EPW member who played their last turn
[21:18] Impaler[WrG]> I could try roping him in here
[21:18] nye> perhaps that would be good
[21:18] N35t0r> I just PM'd him
[21:18] nye> if he is here to talk
[21:20] Impaler[WrG]> I dont know I've never spoken (as far as I know) with this Banana, he's just the only one online
[21:21] Impaler[WrG]> thanks N35, lets see if he shows up
[21:21] N35t0r> He hasn't opened it still
[21:21] Impaler[WrG]> give it a whial, in the meantime
[21:21] Maniac> aha is Blake online?
[21:22] Impaler[WrG]> check poly, is his light on
[21:22] N35t0r> he's still online
[21:22] N35t0r> I get told that as well
[21:22] nye> hail him in the apolyton channel? open a private channel and say hi?
[21:23] Maniac> he's been idle for 24 minutes there
[21:23] Maniac> Why didn't we notice earlier ;hmmm:
[21:24] Impaler[WrG]> If Storm desides it want to trade maps, just send us your map in an atachment and we will send ours in a reply
[21:24] nye> try double clicking on his name?
[21:24] Maniac> damn I even talked to him but didn't know he was a banana
[21:24] Impaler[WrG]> We can ofcorse only send you a map of our territory, none of the Banana territory would be included
[21:24] * Maniac bangs head against wall
[21:25] nye> i suppose we are advertising this meeting to anyone in the general channel then
[21:25] Maniac> err oops
[21:25] Impaler[WrG]> opps
[21:26] Maniac> any people of other teams?
[21:26] Impaler[WrG]> I dont think so
[21:26] nye> who knows who is whom
[21:26] Maniac> damn of course
[21:26] Maniac> now everyone will know GS and AC have met
[21:26] nye> yes
[21:26] Impaler[WrG]> who reads the chat room anyway
[21:26] nye> and calling banana in
[21:27] Impaler[WrG]> well whats done is done, next time we will wisper
[21:27] Maniac> okay this is kinda hilarious. All of Apolyton has been able to see this the whole night lol
[21:27] Impaler[WrG]> see if you cant get him in here still
[21:27] N35t0r> I'm on that
[21:28] * Maniac is now known as NothingGoingOnHere
[21:29] nye> Impaler, I am going to assume we will have more to discuss after tonight. When are you available again?
[21:30] Impaler[WrG]> hold up just a moment talking with EPW
[21:30] Impaler[WrG]> maybe this time tommorow night but not earlier
[21:31] nye> This time tomorrow, or a bit later would be fine
[21:31] * EPW has joined #ignore
[21:31] EPW> ok that did it
[21:31] N35t0r> good
[21:31] nye> is this a banana?
[21:31] Impaler[WrG]> hey their
[21:32] Impaler[WrG]> nye = Gathering Storm
[21:32] EPW> hey
[21:32] NothingGoingOnHere> hey
[21:33] NothingGoingOnHere> don't mind me - I'm in disguise
[21:33] Impaler[WrG]> The original purpose of this meeting was 3 way tech trading talks, Bananas and AC originaly knew each others techs and plans
[21:34] Impaler[WrG]> Now Gathering Storm and Bananas can talk over their plans
[21:35] Impaler[WrG]> cool?
[21:35] nye> i'm not certain epw is the right banana to talk to
[21:35] nye> is he?
[21:35] NothingGoingOnHere> but who is?
[21:35] Impaler[WrG]> are you??
[21:35] nye> good question
[21:35] EPW> uh
[21:36] EPW> apperently I'm co-leader or something
[21:36] Impaler[WrG]> EPW can you fill us in on WHO is running Banana?
[21:36] EPW> but daddy=o is are diplo guy
[21:36] EPW> platypus
[21:37] nye> we (GS) have had a difficult time communicating with your team. nothing of any consequence has been said. just a lot of garbled, incoherent messages
[21:38] NothingGoingOnHere> *sighg* gotta go I'm afraid. Sleepy... ;-)
[21:38] nye> g'night
[21:38] EPW> hmm
[21:38] EPW> night
[21:38] Impaler[WrG]> Likewise we have waited typicaly a week or more to get responses to our messages (AC)
[21:39] NothingGoingOnHere> see ya
[21:39] EPW> I'm not sure if I should speak for the team
[21:39] * NothingGoingOnHere (Maniac@147.124-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has left #ignore
[21:39] nye> if you are not sure, then you are correct to defer.
[21:40] Impaler[WrG]> Were just confused, is your team inactive or are you giving us the cold shoulder?
[21:40] EPW> I think there was some confusion over when the chat was
[21:40] Impaler[WrG]> If its plain old inactivity we can understand that and just need to know who to prod
[21:42] Impaler[WrG]> how so, I sent a very detailed message to your G-mail
[21:42] EPW> Well I would say we have been pretty inactive
[21:43] Impaler[WrG]> Do you personaly check the G-mail account or dose just Daddy-O
[21:43] EPW> Daddy-o and platypus mainly...i
[21:44] EPW> it looks like neither of them could make it
[21:44] EPW> no insult was intended...
[21:45] EPW> I honestly I wasn't keeping up with the thread
[21:45] EPW> and just came in here by chance
[21:45] Impaler[WrG]> I wish they had specified, I said if the time was not good it could be reschedualed
[21:45] nye> i'm not insulted, but we at gs wonder why nothing of consequence is ever communicated by your team
[21:45] nye> forget about today
[21:46] EPW> Sorry about this, we really only have 2 active members....and me
[21:46] Impaler[WrG]> Thats rather thin I must admit
[21:47] nye> yep
[21:47] Impaler[WrG]> maybe you should try to rally some of the inactives
[21:47] EPW> Well I'll tell Daddy-o and Platypus what happened
[21:47] EPW> we can try to reschedule?
[21:48] nye> let us know when your team has something they want to talk about
[21:49] EPW> okay one of us will
[21:49] Impaler[WrG]> I'd like to get some clarification on what Banana members are authorized to say/do
[21:50] Impaler[WrG]> I take it your not able to negotiate, and Daddy-O or P-Rex have all the power
[21:50] EPW> I could probably negotiate, but I don't know what we want....
[21:51] Impaler[WrG]> I see, if we talk with Daddy-O can he make agrements unilaterly or must he confer with P-Rex
[21:51] N35t0r> They can talk about it and tell us
[21:53] EPW> Daddy-O can make agreements
[21:53] Impaler[WrG]> ok thats good to hear
[21:54] Impaler[WrG]> Ok any messages Bananas want to convey?
[21:54] EPW> We do want peace, and we would like to engage in tech trading, but thats all I can say
[21:54] Impaler[WrG]> AC has the same position
[21:55] nye> ok
[21:55] EPW> as for the details, we really havn't sorted them out yet
[21:57] Impaler[WrG]> Banana has plans for trading with AC, I hoped to get Storm involved to see what they had to offer
[21:59] Impaler[WrG]> nye, do you want to aproatch Bananas for a private two way trade talk of your own
[21:59] Impaler[WrG]> I'd sugjest doing so
[21:59] nye> i'll wait to see what banana might have to say
[21:59] nye> so far that's been a whole lot of nothing
[22:00] EPW> I'm sorry, I really can't get into a trade talk now, its Daddy-O's area
[22:01] nye> i understand that, epw.
[22:01] Impaler[WrG]> would you like me to log off so you two can be alone together
[22:01] nye> no
[22:01] * EPW (juser@adsl-75-26-202-208.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: Bye bye)
[22:01] nye> as i said, we are waiting to hear from banana
[22:01] Impaler[WrG]> well I'm sorry this didnt work out so well
[22:02] nye> honestly, impaler, i would not rely on them to tie their own shoes
[22:02] Impaler[WrG]> Well at least we got some insight into whats happening over their
[22:02] * EPW (juser@adsl-75-26-202-208.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net) has joined #ignore
[22:02] EPW> accidently closed the browser
[22:02] Impaler[WrG]> ah
[22:02] nye> hello again
[22:03] EPW> hello
[22:03] EPW> was there anything further to discuss?
[22:03] nye> not much. ball is in banana's court.
[22:04] EPW> we will get back to you as soon as possibe
[22:04] Impaler[WrG]> nothing official, you can convey messages and thats about it
[22:04] EPW> I've said all that I can
[22:04] EPW> well if thats it, I'm off
[22:04] EPW> good night
[22:04] Impaler[WrG]> night
[22:05] nye> g'night
[22:05] N35t0r> bye
[22:05] * EPW (juser@adsl-75-26-202-208.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: Bye bye)
[22:05] N35t0r> Well, I guess that's all
[22:05] N35t0r> nye, want the log?
[22:05] nye> at any rate, Impaler, I would be open to continuing discussions tomorrow
[22:05] N35t0r> Impaler, I'll post it in our thread
[22:06] Impaler[WrG]> thanks n35
[22:06] nye> N35t0r, that would be nice of you.
[22:06] Impaler[WrG]> one last thing
[22:06] nye> go ahead
[22:06] Impaler[WrG]> nye I hope your less suspicious of us after tonight
[22:07] nye> time and events will tell. i've put my neck out a long ways tonight
[22:08] Impaler[WrG]> I realize that and because of it we made a lot of progress
[22:08] nye> i hope we can develop a good working relationship with AC, as you are obviously a team that takes this game seriously.
[22:08] Impaler[WrG]> This is my third Democracy game, I enjoy them very much
[22:08] nye> i do question how much land should be set aside for a team that can't be bothered to answer messeges
[22:09] nye> experience helps
[22:09] Impaler[WrG]> is this your first DG?
[22:09] nye> heh, hardly
[22:09] N35t0r> lol
[22:10] N35t0r> nye, pm, email?
[22:10] Impaler[WrG]> my previous ones were the second SMAC game as Cycon and the third one as Morgan
[22:10] nye> email please, N35t0r.
[22:10] N35t0r> ok
[22:10] Impaler[WrG]> yours?
[22:10] N35t0r> lol
[22:10] nye> i have heard of the ACen DG's. Pretty competetive
[22:11] nye> the ptw dg, the ptw isdg, the c3c isdg
[22:11] nye> those were the mp dgs
[22:11] Impaler[WrG]> accronim overload
[22:12] nye> i skipped the 2nd ptw dg. too many games...
[22:12] Impaler[WrG]> isdg = intersite democracy game
[22:12] nye> yes
[22:12] Impaler[WrG]> c3c = Civ3 call to power?
[22:12] nye> ptw, play the world
[22:12] nye> c3c civ 3 conquests
[22:12] Impaler[WrG]> k
[22:13] Impaler[WrG]> play the world is Civ3 expantion?
[22:13] nye> the first one
[22:13] nye> it opened up pbem and then the first mp dg started
[22:13] Impaler[WrG]> ok got it, and these were all team based
[22:13] nye> yes
[22:14] nye> before that i was in the first civ3 sp dg
[22:14] nye> i think ACen were at it sooner though
[22:14] Impaler[WrG]> I've never yet partispated in the One Big team against AI type games
[22:14] nye> it was fun because it was novel
[22:14] Impaler[WrG]> the First AC game was like that but I wasnt in it
[22:15] nye> ACen had 2 MP DGs, yes?
[22:15] Impaler[WrG]> yes the second and third were multi-human teamed with some AI's mixed in
[22:16] Impaler[WrG]> 5 teams on the second and 4 in the third
[22:16] nye> i figured most of you would have some maxy when it comes to these things
[22:16] nye> one of the probklems in the civ ones is that anyone and everyone starts a team
[22:17] nye> the ptw game was the only one that actually worked well, imo
[22:17] nye> the second one was started with sillyness in mind
[22:17] Impaler[WrG]> and then they drift off and you end up with team Banana
[22:17] nye> food teams, and such
[22:17] nye> yes, and now we have banana
[22:18] Impaler[WrG]> In ACDG 2 the University faction decayed to 1 person
[22:18] nye> that can be a problem
[22:19] Impaler[WrG]> Kody did some amazing stuff with the Hive that game and just steam rolled the competition
[22:19] Impaler[WrG]> brb
[22:19] nye> ok
[22:22] Impaler[WrG]> back
[22:22] Impaler[WrG]> ok when would you like to have the follow up
[22:22] Impaler[WrG]> I'm thinking our teams will need some time to debate the proposals
[22:23] nye> sooner rather than later. let me know when you are available in the week
[22:24] Impaler[WrG]> This time at night is good for me any week day
[22:24] nye> ok. let's keep each other up to date on progress of in team discussions and resume when we have something to talk about
[22:24] Impaler[WrG]> infact even tommorrow this time I'd probly be avalible, just not earlier as I'm having dinner with the family
[22:25] nye> i'll see you then if we have anything to say
[22:25] N35t0r> I'll wake up early on monday then
[22:25] Impaler[WrG]> sounds good, I think my team should have made up its mind before next weekend
[22:25] nye> ok
[22:25] Impaler[WrG]> I'll send G-mail
[22:26] nye> ok
[22:26] Impaler[WrG]> when I think theirs something to discuss
[22:26] Impaler[WrG]> bye
[22:26] nye> g'night
[22:26] * Impaler[WrG] (Impaler@ip70-171-219-4.tc.ph.cox.net) has left #ignore (Leaving)
[22:26] N35t0r> good morning
[22:26] nye> good day then
[22:35] * N35t0r (~o@62-101-126-237.ip.fastwebnet.it) has left #Ignore
Session Close: Sat Dec 09 22:56:14 2006

[notyoueither]

We need to decide...

Are we being played by Nana and AC?

Are we willing to proceed with just AC?

What are possible trades?

[Blake]

I think we should trust AC and send them the information on Vox as a gesture of good will and trust-building, send the screenshot I took (or something like it), no reciprocation required. If AC want to volunteer us map information, that's fine, but we make it clear that we are trading the map because it contains information critical for coherent diplomacy and their long term decision making.

I also say that we should tend towards relationship building exclusively with AC and simply ignore nana. Banana are weak, incompetent and frustrating to deal with.

I suspect that once AC learn we are destroying Vox, that it might get their hawks a bit excited and maybe shift forward any plans AC have to destroy nana.

Once AC knows about the Vox situation, AC will realize that GS doesn't hesitate to kill off weak neighbors, so that GS will probably expect to be invited to share a Banana Split, at least once GS has finished off Vox and has run out of room. Maybe a standoff where neither team kills Banana could be maintained - but if Banana dies, it'd have to be a shared effort, by that point in the game.

But by striking Banana sooner, while GS is still occupied with Vox, AC would get all the Bananas for themselves.


The AC love for tech trading does seem to be sincere I think (whenever anything is emphasized so much it's cause for suspicion). In SMAC since some techs were really overpowered (D:AP, MMI, Fusion Power come to mind) trading to quickly gain those critical techs gave a decisive advantage, lack of tech trading could put one in an impossible situation. So I think that AC really do want a tech trading partner so they don't fall behind.

I think that's why they are friendly towards Banana - they wanted a tech trade partner more badly than we did, so while we decided to kill Vox, AC decided to befriend Banana, even knowing they were weak and incompetent.

Well now, we can be the tech trade partner they want. We can be a better tech trade partner than Banana. Combined, the research efforts of AC and GS would outstrip that of any possible alliance on the other continent. We can be a pact of equals.

I really don't see what we have to lose by embracing AC as a trade partner, there's just no scope for conflict for a long time and the potential profits are immense. If Banana gets removed from the equation, one way or another, it's all the better, less complex that way.


I also wish to note that I'm not impartial here, SMAC is very much in my roots and if I were on any other team it'd be AC, in fact AC was the only team I expressed interest in joining (I was invited into GS). It pleases me to see AC doing well, and they'd be a team I'd even personally be willing to share a victory as equals with. Of course I'd still go to war against them all the same if that's what the situation calls for .

[Krill]

and they'd be a team I'd even personally be willing to share a victory as equals with

:vomit:

No. Shared. Victory. End of Discussion. ThoughI pretty much agree with the rest.

[Blake]

Oh I wouldn't expect the rest of the team to be willing to do that .

I wouldn't trust AC not to backstab us anyway .

[notyoueither]

Blake, are you familiar with many of the people on AC? If so, which ones.

[Mudhut]

Here's suggestion - We raise the issue of not-disclosing-contact with AC in the following way.

-We still are a little suspicious about the possibility that AC and Banana are playing us.
-One reason that we're suspicious is that AC knew about us before we met.
-The demogame rules explicit forbid discussing a third team until that team is known by both teams
-We think this rule is stupid, by the way. Especially since you can get around it by trading maps showing the third team!
-But we want to know exactly how AC knew about us before we met, and why Banana told them.

This makes it clear that we're a play-by-the-rules-even-when-they-are-stupid type of team. Should be much easier for them to understand when we finally say "see, here are Vox -> this is why we couldn't show them to you".

I am very concerned that we go out of our way to make sure that AC don't think we're being duplicitous at all.

[Mudhut]

Also, if they are smart, they will realise that our current tech path is all towards catapults (and elephants).

Currently, this will make them think that we're very keen on war with Nana (who else are we going to attack?) They might get a bit nervous/cagey about us cleaning up Nana without them.

So it isn't all bad if AC meet Vox -> at least then they will understand that we're not after Banana land for ourselves, which should mean that it plays out as Blake says four posts up.

[notyoueither]

I agree. We have to bring Vox in. It is a matter of timing.

[Mudhut]

Originally posted by notyoueither
We need to decide...

Are we being played by Nana and AC?

Are we willing to proceed with just AC?

What are possible trades?

Also, my two cents on these direct issues.

I don't think we're being played by Nana and AC. It's just vaguely possible that AC are the masterpuppeteers behind an incompetent Nana, but it just doesn't seem likely.

I'm all for proceeding with bilateral tech and map trades with AC. If Nana get their act together, that's fine, but otherwise forge on with us and the other serious team.

Possible trades - first, I really don't think we can deviate from our current tech path (straight to catapults). It's just too important that we get rid of Vox quickly.

On to tech trades themselves - I've taken costs from the CFC technology factfile, cause I can't open Civ here at work. As a result, I've "scaled back" the tech I do have the actual figures on in order to keep it all consistent, figuring that the proportions are the most important aspect. If someone has more accurate details, let me know and we can update.

Both: agriculture, hunting, wheel, mysticism, mining, pottery, bronze working,

AC: animal husbandry(100), iron working (200), four turns from writing (60/120?)

Us: Archery (60), eight turns from writing (52/171 scales back to 36/120), one turn from Polytheism (134/143 scales back to 94/100).

So at the moment we are behind in tradeable beakers - by about 160 or so.

If they go writing-alphabet(300), then they have 600 beakers of tradeable stuff. In the time it takes them to get to alphabet, we could presumably only go one more tech. So if we continued writing-maths(250) then we've got 310 beakers to trade. If we "waste" a turn completing poly, then we've got 410 beakers to trade.

So at the first opportunity to trade, we're still a way behind, but could presumably offer:

OPTION 1:
We give: Poly(100)+maths(250)
They give: Animal Husb (100)+Iron Working (200).

Note that we'd have archery up our sleeve, they would have alphabet up their sleeve. We get a 50 beaker IOU.

OPTION 2:
We give Poly(100)+maths(250)+archery(60)
They give Alphabet(300)+animal husb(100)

They have iron working up their sleeve, we get a 10 point IOU.

Would love to put correct figures in there - anyone able to oblige? But that should be a good starting point for discussion. I'll stop spamming now

[Blake]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Blake, are you familiar with many of the people on AC? If so, which ones.

Well I know that a number of members are intellectually fearsome which could be defined as "Someone who on occasion can correct me or knows something I don't". As far as I'm concerned, Googlie is probably the biggest name on AC.

Googlie, Darsan, Chaos Theory, binTravkin, Maniac, mart7x5 are all active Multiplayers - at least in SMAC (unknown in CIV) - others may be too, I just don't recognize their names.

Impaler[WrG] seems to be one of their diplomats and has been known to have a less than stellar understanding of game mechanics, but very enthusiastic. Illuminatus is pigeonholed similarly.


I think I can say that as a rule, those SMAC players who embraced CIV have joined CIV teams - probably GS or Sara, most likely. In other words, AC do not have the best CIV players.

What team AC do have is a heck of a lot of MP and DG experience, not all of it applicable to CIV, but the concepts are solid - all the human nature stuff which doesn't change game-from-game. And they have the experience in DG's to be highly organized and have the intellectual grunt to form detailed long term plans and run simulations and so on - at least on par with GS and Sara, in many ways the ability to form such plans makes up for a lack of specific experience, when a situation can be "solved" there's less need for intuition from experience.

Team AC may be lacking in CIV-specific experience, or skewed by playing too much AC and too little CIV. Such skewing may include an obsession with tech trading, overvaluing wonders (Secret projects were overpowered in SMAC) and being brutal warmongering bastards - not that the latter isn't equally applicable to CIV. They have certainly chosen a good leader in Qin for their Wonder Building and teching and I have no reason to believe they wont play Qin to his strengths - use financial to finance research and a large army and Ind to grab a few key wonders.

For sure I place AC as one of the top 3 teams - the other two being of course GS and Sara. They may not have the most collective CIV experience but they will be playing deadly seriously and with utmost efficiency - it would be most foolhardy to assume anything lesser and so far their demographics supports this assertion, they have gotten a good start and capitalized on it. That they are doing so well is certainly not a fluke, any team would probably be doing reasonably with their start, but not any team could create those runaway demographics.

[notyoueither]

That's sort of what I was thinking.

We have 2 annoyances for neighbours and AC.

I will continue to do what I can to forge cooperation with AC.

[notyoueither]

... but we have to admit the possibility that they may favour a close relationship with a team they can dominate (Banana).

It is unknown what effect the knowledge of Vox will have on them.

Were I to have a strong building position, and a cat's paw as a neighbour... and then I discover the largest threat to me is at war with another civ very early and unable to take them out foreseeably... I would be very happy and do nothing to help the threat along the way.

This is the crux of my problem with this situation.