AC Diplomacy

[Krill]

Working along the assumption that Vox and banana will meet at some point in the near future, which is not a bad assumption, I can't see the harm, and I can see the benefit, of telling AC and Nana what we are doing.

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by Krill
Working along the assumption that Vox and banana will meet at some point in the near future, which is not a bad assumption, I can't see the harm, and I can see the benefit, of telling AC and Nana what we are doing.

*cough*

[Krill]

Just read that..and was going to edit my post, but seems like I can't anymore...

...talk with AC asap maybe? I'll be around pretty much all night anyway for the next few nights if nye needs a hand...

[notyoueither]

I am working on a message for ACen and Nana. meanwhile, I am a little concerned about the silence from ACen.

PMed to Impaler.

Do you have time to continue our discussions?

I am in the Apolyton channel right now.

[notyoueither]

Chatting with ACen. Very productive.

Summary:
- ACen have Blake's shot and productive discussions about them have occured
- ACen are going to research Alphabet when they finish Writing in a turn or 2
- Free trade of tech is deader than a Mexican Dodo caught in the sights of Texas hunters
- Tech trading on a cash and carry basis is welcome. Issues brought up by me (these are not finalised):
1. trade techs on exchange basis
2. no retrade of acquired techs
3. trades arranged are kept even if a tech to be traded is acquired by other means
4. embargo on Vox

- A first trade might be Math, Masonry, Archery + 150 beakers for Alphabet and Iron Working
- ACen have to decide whther they will trade Alphabet. I let it be known that a situation where Nana and we could not trade is hardly tolerable for Gathering Storm.
- ACen are interested in our plans for a port (trade).

re Vox:
- ACen are aware, and seem to be accepting that help for Vox or trades with them are no-nos.

re Nana:
- ACen want us to keep in mind that ACen does not want to be rivalled by Nana at any point in this game. This could put some restrictions on what we trade with Nana in order to keep relations friendly with ACen, or even to make the Alphabet trade possible to begin with.
- We need to accept that ACen should have more influence on Nana (what they research, etc) as a quid pro quo for their taking our side vs Vox

---
Session Start: Sat Dec 16 13:24:16 2006
Session Ident: Impaler[WrG]
[13:24] nye> hello
[13:24] Impaler[WrG]> ok this looks good
[13:25] nye> i hope you ARE WELL
[13:25] nye> oops
[13:25] Impaler[WrG]> caps lock?
[13:25] nye> yep
[13:25] Impaler[WrG]> haha
[13:25] nye> next to the a
[13:26] Impaler[WrG]> yep I'm doing good, I'm working on a realy great Mod which will allow Civ4 to load modular content
[13:26] Impaler[WrG]> It could revolutionize the Civ4 moding community
[13:26] nye> sounds interesting. i don;t know too much about modding
[13:26] nye> but i take it you mean to allow mixing and matching of mods
[13:27] nye> or parts of them
[13:27] Impaler[WrG]> yes by loading little single element files
[13:27] nye> cool.
[13:27] nye> how are things with ACen?
[13:28] Impaler[WrG]> We have made the desision to go Alphabet next
[13:28] Impaler[WrG]> and are working out just what proposals for trades we will make after that
[13:28] nye> ok.
[13:29] Impaler[WrG]> We have been getting more responses from Bananas as well
[13:29] nye> we see that as well. it is a good sign
[13:29] nye> i need to give something to you, i'm not sure where to send it though
[13:30] Impaler[WrG]> They have been advocating totaly free exchange of tech, basicaly a big love fest of everyone gifting their techs as soon as their discovered without compensation
[13:30] nye> we noted that with some interest.
[13:31] Impaler[WrG]> We had to firmly tell them that was a no go with us
[13:31] nye> ok
[13:31] nye> give me a moment
[13:31] Impaler[WrG]> you need to send a file?
[13:32] nye> yes
[13:32] Impaler[WrG]> attachment on the G-mail account if you can
[13:32] nye> ok
[13:32] Impaler[WrG]> that makes it accesable to all my team-mates
[13:32] Impaler[WrG]> Is it a map perhaps??
[13:33] nye> yes
[13:34] Impaler[WrG]> ok I'll see that we recipricate with a map of our own ASAP, Do you want to share this map with Banana?
[13:35] nye> that would be ok
[13:35] Impaler[WrG]> ok I'll ask them if they are willing to send you maps, I suspect they will, then we can forward both of your maps to each other
[13:36] nye> it is not high quality, but it shows information for trade, borders, and other issues
[13:36] Impaler[WrG]> Ok cool, do you want me to go look at it right now so you can discuss the points?
[13:36] nye> sure
[13:37] Impaler[WrG]> I see mostly empty space and a read city color and a tiny corder of a blue zone
[13:38] Impaler[WrG]> Theirs a narrow jungle covered isthumus of land at the top
[13:38] nye> yes. there is a long distance to be covered for roads for trade
[13:38] nye> nana's rice is at the top
[13:39] Impaler[WrG]> ok I see
[13:39] nye> our continent joins at a narrow point
[13:39] Impaler[WrG]> yes
[13:39] Impaler[WrG]> And you have neibors down in the south
[13:39] nye> you have not heard about the red city?
[13:39] nye> yes, we have neighbours
[13:39] Impaler[WrG]> This is news to us
[13:39] nye> soon to be deceased neighbours\
[13:39] Impaler[WrG]> ???
[13:40] nye> the red is vox
[13:40] Impaler[WrG]> oh
[13:40] nye> as you can see, our caps are very close
[13:40] Impaler[WrG]> and you plan to go to war with them
[13:40] nye> we are at war with them
[13:40] Impaler[WrG]> already!!
[13:40] nye> we have skirmishers choking them as we speak
[13:41] Impaler[WrG]> pillaging everything in sight, forcing their workers into the city ect ect
[13:41] nye> yes. on top of the closeness (we could have made do, possibly) they used deceit when we first came into contact
[13:42] Impaler[WrG]> But I imagine you havent got the forces to punch through their capitol defences?
[13:42] nye> working on that
[13:42] nye> deceit/did things that really annoyed us and we warned them not to do
[13:42] Impaler[WrG]> But the economic strangulation along with your growing forces will result in inevitable victory if you controll the country side
[13:43] nye> yes
[13:43] Impaler[WrG]> What kind of stuff did they do?
[13:44] nye> they slipped the scout into and out of our sight, to try to hide contact
[13:44] nye> then we asked them to stay off our cultural border, and they said 'haha, no' effectively
[13:44] Impaler[WrG]> hide contact, why would that be advantageous?
[13:45] nye> then we told them we would go to war if they moved on our border and moved a warrior to show we meant it
[13:45] nye> then they moved the scout next to our border and our warrior. we killed them
[13:45] nye> so that they cpould scout around us without us knowing they were there
[13:45] nye> to answer your question
[13:46] Impaler[WrG]> so you didn't want your border areas explored and they continued to do so even after that
[13:46] nye> yes
[13:46] nye> and, there were two other contributing factors
[13:47] Impaler[WrG]> brb, but please go on
[13:49] nye> ok. the first other factor is that they founded hinduism. not a biggy by itself, but not something we wanted with a team so at ease with deceit and lacking in manners so close by
[13:49] nye> having our cities become their religion is not tolerable
[13:50] nye> it allows them too much intellignece and gives them distinct advantages when push comes to shove, and their attitude guaranteed pushing at some point. we chose this point
[13:50] Impaler[WrG]> oh yes the line of sight, and your tech path isn't close to an alternate religion
[13:50] nye> yes
[13:51] nye> add all that to the history we have with vox and...
[13:51] nye> the history being the other extra factor
[13:51] Impaler[WrG]> Ofcorse with the Skirmisher in an offensive role, I usualy think of it as a defensive unit but I imagine they would be good in mass even agianst Axes
[13:52] nye> yes
[13:52] Impaler[WrG]> are you refering to history in other democracy games?
[13:52] nye> and vox will never get axes
[13:53] nye> other games? yes, unfortunately it was a factor given the poor start to relations. it could have been overcome, but when they behaved so rudely it helped tip the balance
[13:54] Impaler[WrG]> I seem to recall that some of the teams in this game existed at-least patialy in other Democracy games
[13:54] nye> yes. GS and Vox
[13:55] Impaler[WrG]> I guess our team isn't so different having Alpha Centauri as our common back ground, most of us played on different teams in the two team democracy games
[13:55] nye> all the teams have background
[13:56] nye> ohh, sorry. the Horde is also from prior games
[13:56] Impaler[WrG]> On just for reference you guys are which color again?
[13:56] nye> the people on merc and sara have histories too
[13:56] nye> we are blue
[13:56] Impaler[WrG]> k
[13:57] nye> the purpose of the shot is to show the proximity of Eye of the Storm and the Voice, and to show paths for trade and to discuss borders
[13:57] Impaler[WrG]> So I imagine you will want to keep their holy city and keep Budism for yourselves
[13:57] nye> Hinduism. Most likely.
[13:58] Impaler[WrG]> opps yess Hinduism
[13:58] nye> Buddhism went to sara, IIRC
[13:58] nye> if my tracking is correct
[13:59] Impaler[WrG]> ok well border wise I think you and Bananas will have a border across the Isthmus
[13:59] nye> is that a concern to ACen?
[13:59] nye> yes re border
[13:59] Impaler[WrG]> concern over you having a religion?
[14:00] nye> it seems the land where we connect is Banana, so the border is between us two
[14:00] nye> yes, re concern
[14:00] Impaler[WrG]> Not on my part, my team hasn't realy show much interest over religion
[14:00] nye> ok
[14:01] Impaler[WrG]> We might try to take one in the future just for the happyness
[14:01] nye> they aren't as big a deal later in the game, but during an early war, to have your population annoyed when you defend yourself would be very not good
[14:01] Impaler[WrG]> I dont think anyone will be upset if Hinduism spreads north
[14:02] nye> ok
[14:03] Impaler[WrG]> As for trade I'm thinking my original coastal plan will be good
[14:03] nye> how long to that being ready?
[14:03] Impaler[WrG]> the distance and difficulty of building a road is so long that its faster to go with the sailing
[14:03] nye> yes
[14:04] nye> but there needs to be ports
[14:04] nye> or clear rivers
[14:04] Impaler[WrG]> well as were going alphabet we will be delayed in researching it, their is some possibility of getting Bananas to research it for us and trading for it
[14:05] Impaler[WrG]> but this is still being negotiated, we may end up not getting to it untill after alphabet
[14:05] nye> ok. it sounds like nana may do iron working
[14:05] Impaler[WrG]> I think by that time you guys are likly to have a coastal city
[14:06] Impaler[WrG]> actualy were trying to talk them out of IW because its a dublication of what we already have
[14:06] Impaler[WrG]> were hoping they get fish/sailing and then we trade them IW for them
[14:07] Impaler[WrG]> Which is what we originaly wanted to research before going Alphabet we want to have that covered
[14:07] nye> i can see why ACen might not like Nana's proposal for free exchange of tech, but there can be problems with pay as you go as well
[14:08] nye> will you trade alphabet?
[14:09] Impaler[WrG]> True but were willing to be generous
[14:09] nye> ok
[14:10] Impaler[WrG]> The desisions not made yet on that, I personaly think we could trade it with Storm
[14:10] Impaler[WrG]> Were willing to Trade it with the Banas but they just dont have anything remotly worth trading it for
[14:10] nye> ok. that's almost a sine qua non
[14:11] Impaler[WrG]> ??? sorry not familiar with that one
[14:11] nye> duplication is unavoidable unless the enabling tech for tech trading is itself traded
[14:12] Impaler[WrG]> Writing yes we were thinking of trading that with them, they need libraries badly
[14:12] nye> without which not... at least two teams in a three way relationship have to have alphabet
[14:13] Impaler[WrG]> So I take it Storm would like to aquire Alphabet?
[14:13] nye> it's high on the list
[14:13] nye> we can;t trade with nana without it
[14:14] Impaler[WrG]> true but as I pointed out they dont have hardly anthing as its
[14:15] Impaler[WrG]> They only just finished pottery for crying out loud
[14:15] nye> they are not the largest, that's for sure
[14:15] nye> btw, i beleive i may have been given some incorrect info for the last chat. how long are you guys to writing?
[14:16] Impaler[WrG]> I wish I kept up on that a little better, it should be only a turn or two now
[14:16] Impaler[WrG]> I dont even open the saves you know
[14:17] Impaler[WrG]> let me go see if I can figure it out
[14:17] nye> ok, good. i think we get it sooner than i was told, but not that soon. i would not have wanted to leave you with a mistake in information
[14:18] Impaler[WrG]> Bintravin didn leave a screene, but I'm shure its very soon, I remember it being 4 turns several turns ago
[14:18] nye> ok.
[14:19] Impaler[WrG]> Ok so lets look at our possible deals
[14:19] nye> there is one other thing that could prove a bit touchy
[14:19] nye> ok, deals first
[14:19] Impaler[WrG]> oh go ahead
[14:20] Impaler[WrG]> ok deals 4 tech
[14:20] Impaler[WrG]> We will have Alphabet, AH and IW whan ready to trade
[14:20] Impaler[WrG]> you will have Archery, Masonry, Math
[14:21] nye> we'll be in need of alphabet first, and will have mysticism and math
[14:21] nye> and archery
[14:21] Impaler[WrG]> we have mystisism
[14:21] nye> and masonry depending on the order of research
[14:22] Impaler[WrG]> Ok assuming AC is willing to trade Alphabet what would your offer for it likly be
[14:22] Impaler[WrG]> subject to change ofcorse
[14:22] nye> we'll have to even out beakers as best we can, by your plan
[14:23] nye> brb, just checking something
[14:24] nye> we haven't done much beaker counting yet. we've been waiting for the terms to be settled. Nana's messages confused us.
[14:25] Impaler[WrG]> I've PMed BinTravin to see if he would like to join us (being in Belgum he missed the first chat)
[14:25] nye> ok. we'd have to set up a channel
[14:26] Impaler[WrG]> he should be able to find us ok I dont think we need another channel
[14:26] nye> i don't think a third person can join these
[14:26] nye> or can they?
[14:26] Impaler[WrG]> oh...?? I gues I dont know
[14:27] Impaler[WrG]> well if he shows up in the main channel we can do something
[14:28] nye> ok
[14:28] Impaler[WrG]> but for now back to the subject, what did the bananas do that was confusing?
[14:29] nye> their proposals for free swapping
[14:30] Impaler[WrG]> yes its rather silly, their in last place tech wise and they want everyone to basicly gift them stuff
[14:30] nye> i need to grab a coffee. be gone a few minutes (~10) OK?
[14:31] Impaler[WrG]> shure
[14:36] Impaler[WrG]> I'll be posting in our forums with the hot news!
[14:44] nye> ok. back
[14:46] Impaler[WrG]> k
[14:47] nye> ok. we should claify a couple of things.
[14:47] Impaler[WrG]> I was just reading up the latest news from the Nediverse
[14:47] nye> OT is fun
[14:47] nye> you mentioned 'being generous'. could you elaborate?
[14:49] Impaler[WrG]> basicaly were not planning on using the Tech brokering to screw everyone else, you know like how you trade 1 tech to 4 different AI's and get a differnt tech from each
[14:49] nye> ok
[14:50] nye> will you trade with Vox? (this is assuming Vox have anything to offer, they have 1 city and zero workers)
[14:50] Impaler[WrG]> Were going to try not to be greedy
[14:50] Impaler[WrG]> Its our new years resolution
[14:51] Impaler[WrG]> I doubt we could even reach them in time to ever speak with them
[14:51] nye> heh. i hope you can appreciate that people on GS would be... dismayed if our freinds helped our enemies
[14:51] Impaler[WrG]> but if such a possibility would present itself, presumably because you guys halted your war efforts
[14:52] Impaler[WrG]> I would strongly recomend my team mates show them the cold shoulder
[14:52] nye> that would be appreciated here
[14:52] Impaler[WrG]> I cant realy imagine they would have anything of greater value then our friendship
[14:53] nye> i agree
[14:53] nye> and the longer it takes us to finish the job, the less help we are in trade to ACen
[14:53] nye> we know the other side has max 3 teams
[14:54] Impaler[WrG]> In any case I dont see how in their present situation (if its as bad as you describe) how any technology could bail them out
[14:54] nye> if we assume there is another, single cont
[14:54] nye> that is what i tried to hint at in the previous chat
[14:54] Impaler[WrG]> yes with Vox eliminated that leaves at most 3 teams remaining in the world
[14:55] Impaler[WrG]> yes we did detect a hint that you had come in contact with a 4th team, but we were not shure
[14:56] nye> i didn't know how legal it was to discuss Vox specifically and I did not feel I had the backing of my team
[14:56] nye> or enough agreement from my team
[14:57] nye> at any rate...
[14:57] Impaler[WrG]> Understandable, the worst possible thing is for somone else to get involved when you have your neck out in a war effort
[14:57] nye> yes
[14:58] Impaler[WrG]> well as I was speculating the other 3 teams are on a continent
[14:58] Impaler[WrG]> Mercs are by their nature suposed to be nutral for hires
[14:58] nye> we know this?
[14:58] Impaler[WrG]> just speculating
[14:58] nye> ok.
[14:59] nye> i am glad we are not in a boat with the Horde and the Mercs
[14:59] Impaler[WrG]> this would seem likly that the other two (Sarantium and Horde) might fight each other and each try to pay the Mercs to join them
[15:00] nye> possibly
[15:00] Impaler[WrG]> In any case I dont see the other teams as being as likly to coperate or have as much territory
[15:01] nye> i'm pretty sure beta would be working to get those two fighting
[15:01] Impaler[WrG]> beta?
[15:01] nye> the founder of sara
[15:01] Impaler[WrG]> Sarantium has a beef with Horde?
[15:01] nye> more the individuals
[15:01] Impaler[WrG]> please forgive my ignorace of all the past history of the other teams
[15:02] nye> and the natures
[15:02] nye> np
[15:02] Impaler[WrG]> so your saying the play styles of Sarantium is warlike?
[15:02] nye> no, the horde is
[15:02] Impaler[WrG]> oh yess that makes sense :P
[15:02] nye> and the mercs to an extent as well
[15:03] nye> sara are likely to feel very threatened
[15:03] Impaler[WrG]> but the Mercs probably wont initiate a fight unless theirs no one to contract too
[15:04] nye> theirs still the position to play. fight for position and resources, or two civs are just too close
[15:04] nye> *there's still the po...
[15:04] Impaler[WrG]> Like if their on an Island with only one other team they would probly try to knock them off
[15:04] nye> yes
[15:04] Impaler[WrG]> and make it Mercenary Island
[15:05] nye> unless it were very large

[notyoueither]

[15:05] Impaler[WrG]> Sailing around kind like Privaters
[15:06] Impaler[WrG]> It would help if naval didn't suck in Civ4
[15:06] nye> so, what we are discussing is a straight trade techs on a beaker basis... what other terms?
[15:06] nye> no retrade of acquired techs?
[15:07] Impaler[WrG]> likly
[15:07] nye> no trade with an enemy of any of the three?
[15:07] Impaler[WrG]> given the present configuration its not very likly though
[15:08] nye> btw, if you want to prevent hinduism from jumping to your cities, declare war on vox when you meet them
[15:08] Impaler[WrG]> I think no off-continent trading sounds reasonable
[15:08] nye> people on GS might want an embargo on Vox to make it official
[15:09] Impaler[WrG]> we have to have Open borders first before religion can spread, and as Vox isn't a threat to us I dont see why
[15:09] nye> no misunderstandings
[15:09] nye> open borders are not needed for religion spread
[15:09] Impaler[WrG]> I think a full non-interaction treaty might be agreeable
[15:09] nye> good
[15:10] Impaler[WrG]> We would probaly want to talk with them though
[15:10] Impaler[WrG]> just to get their side of the story you know
[15:10] nye> of course. we don't mean to isolate the individuals.
[15:10] Impaler[WrG]> by the way will they be allowed to join your team?
[15:10] Impaler[WrG]> Aka assimilation
[15:11] nye> not discussed extensively, but it is likely imo
[15:11] Impaler[WrG]> I think its a good policy, lets people keep playing the game
[15:11] nye> there are no hard feeligns among the players. it boiled down to we as gs did not feel we could trust vox as a team as an opponent
[15:12] Impaler[WrG]> Yep the writing on the wall and all that stuff
[15:12] nye> ... in their position so close to us
[15:13] Impaler[WrG]> Their were similar thoughts on our side when we meet Bananas, the relationship could have soured
[15:14] nye> i'll bet
[15:14] Impaler[WrG]> fortunatly some good juestures from Bananas which we then recipricated helped us get comfortable
[15:14] nye> Vox did the opposite
[15:15] Impaler[WrG]> Bananas have also not tried to land grab and squeeze us, instead they whent south giving us room in the west
[15:16] nye> wise of them, i'd imagine
[15:16] nye> once they started talking to us coherently a lot of concerns about them have lessened
[15:17] nye> tbh, our policy is that they are more the concern of ACen than GS assuming we can get a suitable border with them
[15:17] Impaler[WrG]> good, I think our continent will be at peace once your war with Vox is over
[15:18] nye> we would like that
[15:18] Impaler[WrG]> Ok sounds good
[15:18] nye> anything else to discuss at this time?
[15:19] Impaler[WrG]> lets see back to tech trading
[15:19] nye> ok
[15:19] Impaler[WrG]> I wanted to get a tenative idea of what you would offer for alphabet
[15:19] nye> well, it's pretty obvious you are ahead of us and will be for some time.
[15:19] Impaler[WrG]> you know were interesting in your Math and Masonry
[15:19] nye> we would obviously put math on the table
[15:20] Impaler[WrG]> math is good but I dont think we could trade that straitup for alphabet
[15:20] nye> are you interested in extending credits until later trades?
[15:21] Impaler[WrG]> Thats a possibility but I think its easier to get trades aproved that are equal at the time of trading
[15:21] Impaler[WrG]> rather then X now for Y later
[15:22] Impaler[WrG]> thats not to say one trade might not be a little more generous one way and the followup in the other direction to even things out
[15:22] nye> ok
[15:23] Impaler[WrG]> so tenativly we have math + something for Alphabet
[15:23] nye> one moment
[15:25] nye> we could do Math, masonry, Archery + 150 beakers for Alphabet and Iron Working
[15:25] Impaler[WrG]> Bintravkin just got the news about your Vox troubles, his response...
[15:25] Impaler[WrG]> As for the Vox - they must be having some weak minds at the cockpit, to annoy one of the best early rushers.
[15:25] nye> heh
[15:26] Impaler[WrG]> interesting
[15:26] Impaler[WrG]> by +150 beakers yous saying we get a 150 beaker IOU for Storm techs we may want in the future?[/q]
[15:27] nye> yes
[15:27] nye> sorry, was putting a pot of cofee on
[15:28] nye> if my math is correct
[15:28] Impaler[WrG]> Thats a good offer its definatly got a good chance of passing
[15:28] nye> ok
[15:28] Impaler[WrG]> A possible variation might be less credit and Animal Husbandry rather then IW
[15:29] Impaler[WrG]> but I assume IW is more desirable to you then AH
[15:29] nye> i think so, but don;t hold me to it. the point is we are interested in equality of trades
[15:30] Impaler[WrG]> as our we, I certanly feel the offer is fair and something along these lines is very likly
[15:31] nye> consider it a proposal for both ACen and GS to consider. as i said, we hadn't given a lot of thought to counting beakers due to nana's messages and settling the terms first
[15:31] Impaler[WrG]> Trading IW and AH are not sticking points with us, the only real issue will be Alphabet as their is a camp interested in maintaining a monopoly their
[15:32] nye> oh, well. then we have to do it ourselves and that will simply slow down trading\
[15:32] Impaler[WrG]> I am hoping they dont win
[15:32] nye> i have to share your hope
[15:33] Impaler[WrG]> Assuming I cant get aproval for Alphabet trading we would probably default back to Archery + Masonry 4 IronWorking
[15:33] Impaler[WrG]> with some credit as nessary
[15:33] nye> there are some on GS who would be against any trades without alphabet
[15:34] nye> i don;t know if they would win
[15:34] Impaler[WrG]> IC
[15:34] Impaler[WrG]> give me an impression of what we might be able to trade that 150 tech credit for in the future?
[15:34] nye> i hope you can understand that it would be a very uneven relationship until nana and we could trade
[15:35] Impaler[WrG]> Do you know the Nanas current tech list?
[15:35] nye> yes, we received an email
[15:36] Impaler[WrG]> what are you thinking of trading with them, if I may ask?
[15:36] nye> i'm not sure. as i said, we have not looked at it very much
[15:37] nye> i am improvising in this discussion with you
[15:38] Impaler[WrG]> Were currently urging them to go Fishing/Sailing for trade to us, we would apresiate it if Storm did not incentivate them away from that task
[15:38] nye> that is a fair request
[15:39] nye> i see they have a lot we need anyway
[15:39] Impaler[WrG]> consider it a counterpart to your Vox non-intercourse request
[15:39] nye> ok
[15:40] Impaler[WrG]> ??? Nanas have a lot that you need
[15:40] nye> some. AH, Meditation, Priesthood. they will have fishing, sailing
[15:41] Impaler[WrG]> I though your people were land locked making fishing/sailing of no value and with Budism founded Meditation is useless as well
[15:42] Impaler[WrG]> only Priesthood for the Oracle seems to be good, and AH which we have as well
[15:42] nye> have to go through them sometime. the point is we will have some things to trade
[15:43] Impaler[WrG]> Yes theirs always some possibilities
[15:44] Impaler[WrG]> lets see do you still expect to go for Construction
[15:45] nye> i think so
[15:45] Impaler[WrG]> if we could be confident of trading the 150 beaker credit towards that then I think we are more likly to have a deal
[15:46] nye> i think you can use the iou whenever you like so long as it is a good trade for both of us
[15:46] Impaler[WrG]> sounds good
[15:47] Impaler[WrG]> I had been toying with the idea that someone on the continent should go for Judism if it isn't taken before we trade
[15:48] nye> that could be a good tech for you guys to be first to
[15:48] Impaler[WrG]> As Vox probably isn't going to do it and their are only 3 other teams that might get their before one of us theirs a chance one of us could get it
[15:48] nye> yes
[15:49] nye> we can tell you that we have no problems if you beat us to it
[15:49] Impaler[WrG]> I'll see what my team mates think, I think its only a slim chance to still be avalivle
[15:50] nye> actually, quite likely
[15:50] nye> vox have other concerns and i'm sure the other 3 have a lot too once they discovered each other
[15:50] Impaler[WrG]> you think, It dosn't have that many requirements
[15:50] nye> yes, but you have to take time to do it
[15:51] nye> if you are alone with mercs and horde, would you take the time?
[15:52] Impaler[WrG]> true, but we will be on Alphabet for a good long time now and then actualy researching Polytheism and Monotheism is even longer
[15:52] Impaler[WrG]> I wouldn't even consider it if we weren't getting masonry
[15:52] Impaler[WrG]> in trade from you.. I hope
[15:53] nye> oh. there's one other issue to consider...
[15:53] Impaler[WrG]> yess....
[15:53] nye> assume we have arranged a trade... and then we get a tech from a hut... is the trade effected?
[15:54] Impaler[WrG]> I dont see why it would invalidate a prior agreement
[15:54] nye> -in some other dg's a clause is used that the trade goes on regardless of the source of the techs
[15:55] Impaler[WrG]> If you wanted to re-negotiate bringing the new tech to the barganing table thats also reasonable
[15:55] nye> no, i mean we have arranged for iw and alpha for whatever we give for them... and then we pop iw from a hut
[15:56] nye> techs from huts, or third parties that are already agreed to
[15:56] nye> the techs are part of the trade agreement
[15:56] Impaler[WrG]> IC
[15:56] nye> think about it
[15:56] Impaler[WrG]> well thats a good point
[15:57] Impaler[WrG]> I see from your screen theirs still un-explored space on your continent
[15:57] nye> it's happened in previous dg's
[15:57] nye> yes
[15:57] Impaler[WrG]> so you expect theirs a good posibility of you getting a pop tech
[15:57] nye> i'd say so
[15:58] Impaler[WrG]> and having killed Vox's scout theirs probably huts in the area behind their city, assuming you havent explored that either
[15:58] nye> possibly
[15:59] Impaler[WrG]> well Alphabet cant be obtained from a hut correct
[15:59] Impaler[WrG]> I belice their are some tags on the tech xml that determine this
[15:59] nye> i'm not aware of that, but possible
[15:59] Impaler[WrG]> a GoodyTech> tag or something like that
[16:00] Impaler[WrG]> I could check the source code
[16:00] nye> but there are other techs and other huts and other civs. laying out the groundwork for the general agreement, not just this trade
[16:00] Impaler[WrG]> AH and IW I'm shure are popable I've done so in Single player
[16:01] nye> same here
[16:01] Impaler[WrG]> well lets consider this possibility, if Storm pops either of thouse we could substitute the other tech in its place
[16:02] Impaler[WrG]> so if you pop IW we substiture AH and reduce the beaker IOU
[16:02] nye> but what if we have an agreement with nana for AH?
[16:03] nye> what i'm interested in is establishing the way these trades will be done. is a deal a deal?
[16:03] Impaler[WrG]> humm
[16:03] nye> can we count on it?
[16:03] Impaler[WrG]> So far AC hasn't made any binding deals with anyone, we dont realy have a formal process for it
[16:04] nye> oh
[16:04] Impaler[WrG]> I think we could come up with some process by which a Treaty document is signed off by both sides
[16:04] Impaler[WrG]> brb
[16:04] nye> it is something to think about
[16:07] Impaler[WrG]> back
[16:08] Impaler[WrG]> well I think we could make contingency plans for both of the two likly cases
[16:08] nye> let me know what you guys want to do
[16:09] Impaler[WrG]> Or as you said in their would be a clause that trade continues regardless
[16:09] Impaler[WrG]> Do you favor a particular aproatch?
[16:09] nye> that is farily common in other games
[16:09] nye> the trade continues, most likely
[16:10] Impaler[WrG]> ok I'll see what the others feel about it, I suspect they will be receptive
[16:10] nye> ok
[16:10] Impaler[WrG]> As we already have the north explored were not likly to get any more pops, and we will soon be past the popable techs in any case
[16:11] nye> lots to take back to the teams. anything else for today?
[16:11] Impaler[WrG]> I think you said Vox has only one city, is that correct?
[16:12] nye> yes
[16:12] Impaler[WrG]> Did you destroy any yet or did they just never have the chance because of the war
[16:13] nye> never had a chance due to war
[16:13] nye> this started very early
[16:13] nye> i don;t beleive they ever built a worker
[16:13] Impaler[WrG]> realy
[16:13] nye> but they got archery in time to save the cap
[16:13] nye> ... for the time being
[16:13] nye> we will have a second city next turn
[16:14] Impaler[WrG]> and they have been scraping together archer after archer from that point on
[16:14] nye> pretty well
[16:14] Impaler[WrG]> with un-improved terrain
[16:14] nye> yes, and skirms camped in some of the better tiles
[16:14] Impaler[WrG]> boy they are doomed, I dont see why they dont capitulate
[16:15] Impaler[WrG]> what do the rules say about that anyway?
[16:15] nye> it's never been proposed to them
[16:15] nye> i don;t think the rules say anything
[16:15] Impaler[WrG]> And their too pridefull to sugjest it
[16:15] nye> possibly
[16:16] Impaler[WrG]> well you said your getting a second city, will this city be coastal or will that take some time longer
[16:16] nye> or it never occured to them... or they and we are waiting for the other side to speak first
[16:16] nye> some time longer for coastal. i'll have to check with the builders for the time to a port
[16:17] nye> brb
[16:20] Impaler[WrG]> so I gather things have gone silent between you and Vox after the outbreak of hostilities, no quarter requested, none given
[16:20] nye> pretty much
[16:20] Impaler[WrG]> No begging for mercy by them or gloating by you
[16:21] nye> true
[16:21] Impaler[WrG]> Dosn't give a diplomate much to do, dose it
[16:21] nye> they called us 'mother *****es'. it was a funny message
[16:21] nye> that was right after we killed the scout
[16:22] Impaler[WrG]> I take it if we ever spoke to them they would blame the whole thing on your team :P
[16:22] nye> of course
[16:22] nye> that's always how it works
[16:23] Impaler[WrG]> besides their inflamatory actions how do you think they played?
[16:23] nye> not so good
[16:23] Impaler[WrG]> I would expect them to losse to Skirmishers regardless, but did they put up a good fight
[16:24] nye> no
[16:24] nye> to begin with, they were on religious techs and doing things that a neighbour said 'don't or else...'
[16:24] Impaler[WrG]> If no worker then I guess they tried to grow their pop initialy and whent religion
[16:24] nye> does that sound like a good move?
[16:25] nye> yes
[16:25] Impaler[WrG]> I personaly always go worker first in SP
[16:25] nye> brb
[16:27] nye> i have a couple errands to run. can we continue this later if you have other things to discuss?
[16:27] Impaler[WrG]> If start with Mystism I may try for a religion, if not I go strait for the improvment techs
[16:28] nye> Senethro is hailing me
[16:28] Impaler[WrG]> well actualy I'm about out of usefull topics and was about to de-volve into general strategy ramblings
[16:28] Impaler[WrG]> and then I was going to shamlessly plug my Mods on you
[16:29] nye> heh.
[16:29] Impaler[WrG]> Have you see the Lopez's Civilizeditor
[16:29] nye> i gotta go though. be back in 45 or 60 minutes. maybe get a channel going with Senethro and I'll come back
[16:29] Impaler[WrG]> Its an IN GAME tech tree editor that can write the changes to XML
[16:30] Impaler[WrG]> and he's extending int to Units/Buildings ect
[16:30] Impaler[WrG]> I recomend you try it out
[16:30] nye> ok. i have to go
[16:38] Impaler[WrG]> bye
[17:12] nye_away> channel: GS with pw welcome

[notyoueither]

My notes. Need someplace to put this.

- ACen
429 Alphabet
286 Iron Working
143 Animal Husbandry

429
286
---
715

- GS
357 Math
114 Masonry
85 Archery
---
556


1. trade techs on exhcange basis
2. no retrade of acquired techs
3. Trades arranged are kept
4. embargo on Vox

- Banana
Wheel
Agriculture
Mysticism
Mining
Animal Husbandry
Meditation
Priesthood
Bronze Working

[notyoueither]

Holy pooh!

Two of the ACen's members are in favour of us offering terms of capitulaton to Vox.

[Krill]

No Vassal States

[notyoueither]

Chat continued with Impaler and Senethro.

It is driven home that ACen want something for noninterference with Vox and they feel uneasy about Nana and us vs them.

And discussions of victory.

Session Start: Sat Dec 16 17:05:57 2006
Session Ident: #GS
[17:05] * Now talking in #GS
[17:08] nye_away> +p
* Retrieving #GS modes...
[17:11] * nye_away sets mode: +ps
[17:11] * nye_away sets mode: +k welcome
[17:13] * Senethro ~Senethro@host86-135-224-146.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) has joined #gs
[17:13] Senethro> hi
[17:13] nye_away> hello
[17:13] Senethro> Just reading through Impalers chatlog
[17:14] * nye_away sets mode: +o Senethro
[17:14] nye_away> i still have to make one
[17:14] Senethro> Impaler lost the beginning of his, if you could share it that would be appreciated.
[17:14] nye_away> i'll see what i can do
[17:16] * Impaler[WrG] Impaler@ip70-171-206-253.tc.ph.cox.net) has joined #GS
[17:16] Impaler[WrG]> hey their
[17:16] nye_away> hi
[17:17] nye_away> tyou're missing the beginning of your log?
[17:17] Impaler[WrG]> sorry I was posting the log of the firt portion on our forum and then re-reading it
[17:17] nye_away> ok. i should check mine as well
[17:17] Impaler[WrG]> yes the darn client only keept a running log of the P2P chat
[17:17] Impaler[WrG]> I assumed it kept a full record like the channel
[17:18] nye_away> what are you missing?
[17:18] Impaler[WrG]> everything prior to your line
[17:18] Impaler[WrG]> we know the other side has max 3 teams
[17:19] nye_away> i'll email a copy of my log
[17:19] Impaler[WrG]> ok cool I can edit it onto my post and give my team mates the full log
[17:20] Impaler[WrG]> so you and Senethro get into any good topics when I was away?
[17:21] nye_away> he got here 3 minutes beore you
[17:21] Senethro> Heh, My attention is very divided.
[17:21] Impaler[WrG]> oh
[17:21] nye_away> i'm trying to sort out logs and such
[17:21] Senethro> I'm on voicechat with my clan, a bunch of IRC channels and participating in an AC democracy game.
[17:21] Impaler[WrG]> what game dose the clan play?
[17:22] Senethro> Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory
[17:22] Impaler[WrG]> I played that once, neat game
[17:22] Senethro> Soon to be Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, with any luck.
[17:22] Impaler[WrG]> WrG is an old, now basicly dead StarCraft Clan
[17:22] Impaler[WrG]> Wraith Guard is their name
[17:23] Senethro> Ah, StarCraft.
[17:23] Senethro> I think its a bout a time a sequel came out.
[17:23] Impaler[WrG]> well Warcraft III was kind the sequal
[17:24] Senethro> I played that for a while but I find RTS too stressful.
[17:24] Senethro> So now its FPS instead.
[17:24] Impaler[WrG]> though Ironicaly StarCraft was the Sequal of WC II
[17:24] Impaler[WrG]> very much like Alpha Centauri and Civilization
[17:24] Impaler[WrG]> Civ II = WC II
[17:24] Impaler[WrG]> SMAC = StarCraft
[17:24] Impaler[WrG]> Civ III = WC III
[17:25] Senethro> nye, would you be willing to share with us the motivations of the camp in GS that requires Alphabet as part of any trade?
[17:27] Impaler[WrG]> I think he is away
[17:28] nye_away> log sent
[17:29] Impaler[WrG]> thanks nye
[17:30] nye_away> Senethro... actually, i am anticpating a little, but how workable is the relationship among the three of us if GS and Nana can't trade?
[17:31] Senethro> That depends on if Nana stop mismanaging I suppose...
[17:31] Senethro> I can see a scenario where they get left behind.
[17:32] nye_away> i suppose they might fall behind if they do not build well
[17:32] Senethro> They've not shown a propensity to good play so far.
[17:33] nye_away> that was our concern with the earlier diplomacy, or lack thereof
[17:33] Impaler[WrG]> I'm hoping they can turn it around
[17:34] nye_away> the good thing with so many techs and lines is that there should be a place for a weaker toeam to help out
[17:34] Impaler[WrG]> I dont expect them to always be a bit behind AC and GS tech wise being non-financial
[17:34] Senethro> What are they again? Creative/???
[17:35] Impaler[WrG]> Yes and we have been thinking along thouse lines, Monarchy would seem to be a possible goal for them which neither of us is persuing
[17:36] nye_away> Senethro, they are Ind/Cre
[17:40] Impaler[WrG]> Well you can understand that AC would naturaly want to keep the Alphabet monopoly to enshure it cant be bypassed
[17:40] nye_away> you mean nana and we trade without ACen?
[17:41] Impaler[WrG]> yes, generaly my strategy is to marginalize the tech leader and preferentialy trade with middle of the road players
[17:41] nye_away> or, how bypassed?
[17:42] Impaler[WrG]> atlast in SP, I admit I dont play MP
[17:42] nye_away> hmmmm... how long do you think nana would live if we were to try that?
[17:42] Senethro> To put it more directly, we want nana to never present a threat to us.
[17:43] nye_away> i see.
[17:43] nye_away> that should not come as a large surprise to us
[17:45] nye_away> how can we make ACen more comfortable with the situation? One way or the other, we or Nana will get Alphabet
[17:45] Impaler[WrG]> With our current tech lead they cant threaten us so we are keen to keep that lead at a healthy level
[17:46] nye_away> demographics tell me you should not have a hard time doing that
[17:46] Impaler[WrG]> Our concern is that you might bost them by trading to be on par with us
[17:47] Senethro> So what we'd like to do is to offer a preferential trading relationship.
[17:47] Senethro> That we trade with each other before the bananas, wherever possible.
[17:48] nye_away> hmmm. go on
[17:48] Senethro> We would give first offer of any tech trade to each other.
[17:48] Senethro> And we would be able to /politely request/ that the bananas do not receive a particular tech for a long while.
[17:49] Senethro> I suppose that techs that give offensive military units would be the most obvious example.
[17:49] nye_away> what could we tarde to them?
[17:49] nye_away> *trade
[17:49] Senethro> Well thats just it. Our ideal situation would be us trading only with each other.
[17:50] nye_away> You would never trade with Nana?
[17:51] Impaler[WrG]> Senethro is expressing his own opinions which I doupt would be excepted by AC as a whole
[17:51] Senethro> As long as they had nothing to offer us, because our cooperation kept us ahead.
[17:51] Senethro> Yes, sorry :P
[17:52] nye_away> ok. clear on that
[17:52] Senethro> I'm slightly more concerned about diplomatic security than the AC consensus.
[17:52] Impaler[WrG]> The Nanas though they are obviously the weakest researcher on the Continent can still make valuable contributions
[17:52] Impaler[WrG]> mostly researching non-military techs like Monarchy and the like
[17:53] nye_away> Senethro, I think GS should be aware of ACen's concerns and take them into account. I agree with Impaler that they can do a lot of useful techs
[17:53] Impaler[WrG]> Thats what were hoping for, them in a supporting and non-threatening role
[17:53] Senethro> And similarly, we'd like to know GS's concerns.
[17:54] Impaler[WrG]> not exclusivly in support of AC mind you , in support of the continent
[17:54] nye_away> OK, senethro. That is appreciated
[17:55] nye_away> well, by the terms of what Impaler and I discussed, Nana could not get IW from us.
[17:55] nye_away> they will have to trade with ACen for it since we could not retrade a tech received from ACen
[17:56] nye_away> and to be honest, in the long run, it serves our interests to have a major trading partner...
[17:56] Senethro> Our thoughts exactly.
[17:56] Senethro> We have no idea what those barbarians on a far continent are planning.
[17:56] nye_away> it would not serve our interests to fuel an arms race that could see outr major partner bogged down in a conflict
[17:57] nye_away> if it ever came to blows with Nana, our interests would be that it be quick
[17:58] nye_away> can i ask a question?
[17:58] nye_away> far reaching question
[17:58] Senethro> Fire away.
[17:58] nye_away> what is the preferred victory method for ACen?
[17:59] Senethro> Personally speaking: By any means necessary.
[17:59] Senethro> Whatever opportunity presents itself.
[17:59] Senethro> Impaler?
[17:59] nye_away> thing with civ is that bigger is not always better
[17:59] Impaler[WrG]> I havent seen any discussion on it, nore have I even though about it much myself
[18:00] nye_away> conquest would be very difficult given the economics
[18:00] Impaler[WrG]> To be honest I almost never actualy finish my SP games once I am way ahead in score
[18:00] Senethro> Heh, same here.
[18:00] nye_away> ever tried to conquer the world?
[18:00] Senethro> I forget, are there any forms of alliance permitted in DGs?
[18:00] Impaler[WrG]> Nope too tedious
[18:00] nye_away> yes alliance. no alliance victory
[18:01] Senethro> Meh. Sucks.
[18:01] Impaler[WrG]> So only one team can "win"
[18:01] nye_away> in this game, i think space ship is nmost likely
[18:01] Impaler[WrG]> thats going to take a LONNNNG time
[18:01] Senethro> Yeah, intercontinent warfare is difficult.
[18:01] Impaler[WrG]> though I guess with 1 less team it will speed up
[18:01] nye_away> conquest would take longer, if even possible
[18:02] nye_away> war turns take a very long time, especially later in the game
[18:02] nye_away> and then 2 or 3 well built empires can easily take down a hegemon
[18:02] Impaler[WrG]> but most of the time is actualy taken up my turns siting in mailboxes
[18:03] nye_away> as you grow, your economy turns to goo
[18:03] nye_away> true that. one less team will speed things up
[18:03] Impaler[WrG]> because of the whole upkeep mechanism
[18:03] nye_away> yes. upkeep combined with distance to palace and growing numbers of cities
[18:04] Impaler[WrG]> Theirs still a lot to be said for mass and snowballing, it wouldn't be civ if their wasn't
[18:05] nye_away> yes, but against humans it is not so easy
[18:05] Impaler[WrG]> So long term were looking at some intercontinental warfar possibly with whole continents allied against each other
[18:05] nye_away> humans in real time mp, maybe, but in email where 20 pairs of eyes are looking at the situation for days at a time...
[18:06] nye_away> we could well be looking at that, Impaler
[18:06] Impaler[WrG]> Their not stupid like the AI's
[18:07] Impaler[WrG]> Also theirs bragging rights in being second, third ect ect
[18:07] Impaler[WrG]> Vox is aparently in 7th place
[18:08] nye_away> yes
[18:08] Impaler[WrG]> unless one of the others is also at war
[18:08] nye_away> can i ask another question?
[18:08] Impaler[WrG]> but that seems unlikly right now
[18:08] Senethro> Sure, but I want to speak next :P
[18:08] Impaler[WrG]> fire away
[18:09] nye_away> what would the players of ACen think if GS offered capitulation terms to Vox?
[18:09] Senethro> What kind of terms?
[18:09] nye_away> Join us now and join our team, or take your chances later when we take your only city
[18:09] Impaler[WrG]> I personaly dont see much effect as your going to concour them anyways
[18:10] Senethro> So they would voluntarily abandon their city, let you capture it and join your team?
[18:10] nye_away> that's about it, Senethro
[18:10] Impaler[WrG]> well it dose spare your troops the bloody nose of taking the city
[18:10] Senethro> Personally, I think its your call. Not our business to interfere.
[18:11] Impaler[WrG]> but thats about it so I agree with Senethro
[18:11] nye_away> i would not have asked, but Impaler asked why we hadn't
[18:11] nye_away> players could be very touchy about collusion
[18:12] Senethro> If you were to take them as a vassal team leaving them their own cities, I would feel a bit off about that.
[18:12] Impaler[WrG]> well once their your team mates your only colluding with yourself :P
[18:12] nye_away> which is why i've never brought it up with vox despite thinking about it a long time ago
[18:12] Senethro> It would be like having too capitals and half city maintenance costs.
[18:12] nye_away> that's an interesting view Sneethro, I had not thoguht of that
[18:13] nye_away> sorry to brutalise your name
[18:13] Senethro> Something of an exploit.
[18:13] Impaler[WrG]> Admitedly though it would be legal, atleast I think it would legal
[18:13] nye_away> vassals may very well happen. they have happened before
[18:13] Senethro> So asking them to surrender is probably good game mechanics and good for including them in the game.
[18:14] Impaler[WrG]> Perhaps you would be playing the expantion :P
[18:14] nye_away> heh
[18:14] Impaler[WrG]> then it would be legal
[18:14] nye_away> but actual vassal states have happened before. twice in the ptw demo game
[18:15] Impaler[WrG]> Ceriously though the head-ache of managing that kind of relationship would be a pain
[18:15] nye_away> first a team called Lego saved Vox when GS killed them
[18:15] nye_away> then later GS saved a roll-playing team when they went down
[18:15] nye_away> *role-playing
[18:16] Impaler[WrG]> If I were personaly on a team reciving that offer I would say "just kill us and let us join your team"
[18:16] Impaler[WrG]> To accept means your just agreeing to spend the rest of the game as someones b****
[18:16] nye_away> yes
[18:17] Impaler[WrG]> but if you join the concourer it kind of re-vitalizes the game, your now in a stronger team and can take revence on inocent 3rd parties :P
[18:17] nye_away> heh
[18:18] Senethro> Ok.
[18:18] Senethro> You vassalising them probably puts a spin on what I'm about to say.
[18:18] nye_away> go ahead
[18:18] Impaler[WrG]> I remember when the Cycon faction I was on defeted the Pirate faction in the Second ACDG, they turned down our offer to assimilate we were a lame Borg knockoff anyways)
[18:19] Senethro> I was going to offer you a scam on Vox.
[18:19] Impaler[WrG]> So we banished them to a tiny city far from us
[18:19] Senethro> With your permission, we would approach Vox.
[18:19] Senethro> We would ask them to donate all their tech to us a turn before they died, which we would then use to wreak revenge on you.
[18:20] Senethro> Except of course we would share it for our mutual benefit.
[18:20] Impaler[WrG]> They must have Polytheism and maybe something else too
[18:21] nye_away> very nasty, and perhaps a good plan, but they are unlikely to develop any good tech. it may be buried in chat logs, but they have one city, no workers, and skirms fortified in some of the better tiles
[18:21] Impaler[WrG]> But I doupt you will want to string things out for the amount of time that would take
[18:22] nye_away> let me just say that any tech you could get from them without having to give them anything in return would be welcomed by GS
[18:24] Impaler[WrG]> I think its a nice plan in theory but the rewards are too slim and unlikly and the time frame is bad
[18:24] Impaler[WrG]> Our scout isn't even yet south of the Banana city
[18:24] nye_away> it is not something to waste a lot of effort on
[18:25] nye_away> and there is a lot of ground to cover and times grow dangerous
[18:25] nye_away> ANIMALS AND BARBS
[18:25] nye_away> oops
[18:25] Impaler[WrG]> I would rather use the scout to explore the west coast for establishing a trade linkage
[18:25] nye_away> i can see that being a priority
[18:25] Senethro> Could you take a rough guess at how many turns it would take to reach Vox, nye?
[18:25] Impaler[WrG]> we need a continues strip of coast
[18:25] Senethro> For a scout that is.
[18:26] Impaler[WrG]> let me look at the screen you sent us, it might be possible to calculate it exactly
[18:26] nye_away> 7+ turns depending on where you are
[18:26] Senethro> I reckon thats worth a go for Polytheism, right?
[18:26] Senethro> With the permission of the rest of the GS team.
[18:27] Impaler[WrG]> yep 7 turns from the top of that screen you sent us and were not even their yet
[18:27] nye_away> ACen should feel free. but take into account there is a lot of ground with wolfs and panthers and no other military units
[18:28] nye_away> and the odd bear
[18:28] nye_away> when are barbs due, anyway?
[18:28] Impaler[WrG]> you also have to factor in that we cant trade yet
[18:28] Senethro> Ummmm. Could we open borders and move through your territory?
[18:28] nye_away> we aren't on the way to them.
[18:28] Senethro> Eh.
[18:28] nye_away> we are beside them
[18:29] Impaler[WrG]> Senethro did you see the screenshot Storm sent
[18:29] nye_away> it's roughly the same distance to us as to Vox
[18:29] nye_away> we might be a little further due to less ideal movement
[18:29] Senethro> durrr screenshot?
[18:30] Impaler[WrG]> I think our scouts atleast another 4 turns from the top of Storms Screen shot
[18:30] Impaler[WrG]> theirs some dense jugle to plow through, I hate jungle
[18:30] Senethro> :/
[18:31] Senethro> We need to be exploring anyway and at least it'll give us a chance vs. panthers
[18:31] nye_away> are you still north of the nana city?
[18:31] Impaler[WrG]> I think they made jungle too bad in Civ4, its worse then desert
[18:31] Impaler[WrG]> were kind of circling around to the west of it right now
[18:32] nye_away> oh, yeah, can;t go through before writting
[18:32] Impaler[WrG]> more north of it then south
[18:32] Senethro> chop it down and you get a grassland.
[18:33] nye_away> brb
[18:34] Impaler[WrG]> me too
[18:37] Impaler[WrG]> back
[18:38] nye_away> browsing and typing up some material for my team. i am still here if not too chatty
[18:38] Senethro> I can't think of anything more.
[18:39] nye_away> i'll keep this open in case something comes up
[18:41] Impaler[WrG]> nye do you know anything about how Blake got his AI mods into the 2.08 patch?
[18:41] nye_away> not really, Impaler. I have been busy with work and these darned dg's
[18:41] Impaler[WrG]> I was thinking of asking him and just wondered if you knew
[18:42] Impaler[WrG]> He is on your team right
[18:42] Impaler[WrG]> I dont imagine he partispates much with all the moding work he's doing
[18:42] nye_away> yes.
[18:42] nye_away> he does a fair bit
[18:43] Impaler[WrG]> I know I barly play the game anymore outside of testing code
[18:44] Impaler[WrG]> ok well perhaps you could put in a good word for me
[18:44] nye_away> ok. i will try to introduce you
[18:44] nye_away> but i have never seen him in a chat
[18:44] Impaler[WrG]> jk I'm shure he will be receptive if I just post in his AI development thread
[18:45] nye_away> he is a very socialble guy
[18:46] Impaler[WrG]> Ok well I'm done for diplomacy as well, and I just started some Raman noodles, I'll keep this open incase anyone wants to talk
[18:46] nye_away> in that he welcomes discussion, especially on topics of interest
[18:46] nye_away> ok
[18:46] Impaler[WrG]> away
[18:56] * nye_away sets mode: +o Impaler[WrG]
[20:50] * Senethro ~Senethro@host86-135-224-146.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) Quit Quit: )
[22:06] * Impaler[WrG] Impaler@ip70-171-206-253.tc.ph.cox.net) Quit Ping timeout)

[Blake]

Hmmm.... nice.

[17:46] Impaler[WrG]> Our concern is that you might bost them by trading to be on par with us
[17:47] Senethro> So what we'd like to do is to offer a preferential trading relationship.
[17:47] Senethro> That we trade with each other before the bananas, wherever possible.
[17:48] nye_away> hmmm. go on
[17:48] Senethro> We would give first offer of any tech trade to each other.
[17:48] Senethro> And we would be able to /politely request/ that the bananas do not receive a particular tech for a long while.
[17:49] Senethro> I suppose that techs that give offensive military units would be the most obvious example.
[17:49] nye_away> what could we tarde to them?
[17:49] nye_away> *trade
[17:49] Senethro> Well thats just it. Our ideal situation would be us trading only with each other.
[17:50] nye_away> You would never trade with Nana?
[17:51] Impaler[WrG]> Senethro is expressing his own opinions which I doupt would be excepted by AC as a whole

Excellent.

It is good to have it confirmed that AC fear an alliance between GS and Nana against them. Obviously they feel that nana have no loyalty to AC.

It is nice that they are offering exactly what I want - a preferential tech trading agreement. It looks as though the opinion in AC is becoming more negative towards nana.

[18:19] Senethro> I was going to offer you a scam on Vox.
[18:19] Impaler[WrG]> So we banished them to a tiny city far from us
[18:19] Senethro> With your permission, we would approach Vox.
[18:19] Senethro> We would ask them to donate all their tech to us a turn before they died, which we would then use to wreak revenge on you.
[18:20] Senethro> Except of course we would share it for our mutual benefit.
[18:20] Impaler[WrG]> They must have Polytheism and maybe something else too

I just can't help liking team AC!

It sounds to me that their plan is to marginalize nana and presumably annex their territory once it becomes convenient to do so. Especially if Senethro has much say in AC policy . I just KNOW they'd have to be talking about doing that.


I think this is basically good news. A 2 strong civ continent should be fairly stable. Later in the game our Spiritual trait will come into it's own while AC's industrious trait wanes.

[Ennet]

A note here, nye we basically got Polytheism, (1 turn left of it) so you could put that on the table aswell..

[notyoueither]

Thanks, Ennet. I forgot all about that and in a hasty read of Nana's list assumed they had it anyway, but Nana went the other branch.

Beginnings of a message to AC. the end needs to be written.

Hello Alpha Centaurians

I am writing to let you know that our recent discussion is being greeted with widespread approval within Gathering Storm.

To recap the basic principles of technology trading and future cooperation among Alpha Centaurians, Team Banana, and Gathering Storm that were discussed:
1. technology would be exchanged among the three teams on an even exchange basis
2. each of the three civs agrees not to retrade any technology acquired in trade from one of the three
3. trades arranged are kept even if a tech to be traded for is acquired by other means
4. each of the three teams agrees to an embargo on the team known as Vox. Technology will never be traded with Vox and borders with them will remain closed forever.

We would very much like to know your thoughts on these basic points and if you can find a means of formally ratifying a final agreement as a binding treaty. We also welcome news of any points that Alpha Centaurians may wish to raise.

It is our understanding that the following technology trade is on the table:
Alpha Centaurians trade Alphabet and Iron Working to Gathering Storm in exchange for Math, Masonry, Archery + 150 beakers in future considerations.

I have some additional news. As I mentioned in our chat, I was improvising to propose possible trades. What I neglected to take into acount is that we are very near to completion of Polytheism. This was a research project abandoned in the distant past. Gathering Storm can offer that to satisfy most of the 150 beaker credit.

[notyoueither]

Followup on chat

Hello Alpha Centaurians

I am writing to let you know that our recent discussion is being greeted with widespread approval within Gathering Storm.

To recap the basic principles of technology trading and future cooperation among Alpha Centaurians, Team Banana, and Gathering Storm that were discussed:
1. technology would be exchanged among the three teams on an even exchange basis
2. each of the three civs agrees not to retrade any technology acquired in trade from one of the three
3. trades arranged are kept even if a tech to be traded for is acquired by other means
4. each of the three teams agrees to an embargo on the team known as Vox. Technology will never be traded with Vox and borders with them will remain closed forever

We would very much like to know your thoughts on these basic points and if you can find a means of formally ratifying a final agreement as a binding treaty. We also welcome news of any points that Alpha Centaurians may wish to raise.

It is our understanding that the following technology trade is on the table:
Alpha Centaurians trade Alphabet and Iron Working to Gathering Storm in exchange for Math, Masonry, Archery + 150 beakers in future considerations.

I have some additional news. As I mentioned in our chat, I was improvising to propose possible trades. What I neglected to take into acount is that we are very near to completion of Polytheism. This was a research project abandoned in the distant past. Gathering Storm can offer that to satisfy most of the 150 beaker credit.

We look forward to hearing back from you at your earliest convenience.

Regards
nye

Sent

[Arrian]

BRAVO!

I really do like AC. I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship...

They take our interests into account vis-a-vis Vox, we do the same vis-a-vis Banana.

-Arrian