AC Diplomacy

[Arrian]

My gut response is as follows:

I like AC. I think Banana is effing useless. I do not think they are playing us.

I could, of course, be wrong. But I don't think so.

The tech swapping with AC that was discussed in the chat sounds good, and I'm fine with trading screenshots - not least because it will allow us to openly discuss Vox. The sooner we (are able to) come clean about that, the better, IMO.

edit: whether or not it is better to try and reach a tech deal before disclosing info re: Vox or not is argueable. One the one hand, knowledge of the Voxian problem might lead AC to be less interested in cooperating with us. On the other, us doing a deal and then disclosing Vox might leave a sour taste in their mouths that would poison future relations. I think AC is interested enough in tech trading that they will do it anyway - even if they know of our war with Vox.

-Arrian

[Hot Mustard]

Edit: Oops - posted in wrong diplo thread. See Banana thread for their recent email.

[Krill]

Sign up Team Banana to start on Iron Working ASAP, if this has not already been discovered.

AC said that nana know all of the techs that AC has, and AC has, or claims to have, IW. I see no reason to disbelieve AC, either, as Blakes reasoning to me seems sound (ie I can just about follow it and it makes sense within the frame work of common sense and the demographics.) So that begs the question has Nana made a simple mistake or do they really not know that AC have IW?

[Arrian]

I think they're disorganized to the point where they're unable to function in any meaningful way.

edit: having read their missive in full, I'd like to soften the above. They're disorganized, which greatly impairs their ability to get stuff done. That will be annoying. But they may not be completely useless.

Anyway, it seems to me that a relationship with AC is worth cultivating. Banana are just trying to not get squished.

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

Realisticallly, Nana is AC's problem for a very long while... Assuming Nana will agree to a reasonable border with us we should go with the flow.

[notyoueither]

* Simplify the proposed treaty by dropping the gold to tech payment.
* State that as soon as possible (discovery of writing?) the 3 member nations freely exchange techs so that everyone has the same technologies to start with.
* Draw up a research path for each nation: AC - Writing, ...; Banana - Iron Working, ...; GS - ?, ...
* Add a clause that nations freely gift a discovered technology to member nations the same turn it is discovered, or the turn after it is discovered.
* And provide an exit/renewal clause such as, at change of age, a given tech is discovered, a given year, etc.

This is very interesting and is at odds with what AC have told us.

[Mudhut]

...not to mention factually incorrect (tech trades = alphabet, not writing)

So as I see it, the biggest difference between what AC said and what Banana said is that AC want a strict beaker-for-beaker system. What you put in, is what you get out. Banana are after a much more generous system, where we trade everything as soon as possible - but have it worked out so that by the end of the age, we've all put in the same amount of beakers (and someone can leave, if they wish). I guess that would be slightly quicker for us all techwise, but relies on a higher level of trust.

My two cents:
I'm happy to go into the free-for-all agreement, because AC will be more exposed than us. AC are a way ahead of us already in beaker research, so if they are willing to gift us stuff asap then we're better off than otherwise!

I expect we'd pass AC in research capacities sometime around the end of the ancient age, so having some sort of exit/renegotiation clause then is a good idea.

But if AC want a strict beaker-in-beaker-out method, I'm fine with that too. Whatever AC want, we go with, regardless of what Banana would prefer.

[notyoueither]

Enough time has passed and much has been gained (see Nana diplo thread). Time to roll the dice.

We have been discussing the situation among ourselves. We are ready to renew talks with Alpha Centaurians and with Nana.

Please feel free to let me know how Alpha Centaurians would like to proceed, whether by chat or email.

Regards
nye

[notyoueither]

If anyone has any reservations about information to be shared, speak now.

The next contacts with ACen and Nana need to see me adopt a more forthcoming position. If anyone has qualms about this it is time to state them.

The next big contact is to move the tech deal along. I am going to have to bring up Vox before ACen find them by themselves. I will presnt the situation as this continent has three civs and one going out. The one is going out because we are standing on their throat. They are too close.

The next seven days could see us lose this game. It could also see us very much more likely to win assuming I gain the blessings of ACen and Nana for killing Vox along with a technology sharing arrangement.

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by notyoueither
If anyone has any reservations about information to be shared, speak now.

The next contacts with ACen and Nana need to see me adopt a more forthcoming position. If anyone has qualms about this it is time to state them.

The next big contact is to move the tech deal along. I am going to have to bring up Vox before ACen find them by themselves. I will presnt the situation as this continent has three civs and one going out. The one is going out because we are standing on their throat. They are too close.

The next seven days could see us lose this game. It could also see us very much more likely to win assuming I gain the blessings of ACen and Nana for killing Vox along with a technology sharing arrangement.

Maybe start with a map share from us, showing Vox and then answering the inevitable question - just so we've followed the rules, such as they are.

[Mudhut]

You're going to show them the zoomed-out screenshot that Blake did, yes? The one which just shows the top edge of our cultural border? Sweet.

I also think Blake's summary re: Vox is a good one, which was:

Our story becomes:
1) War between GS and Vox was inevitable due to being stuck together on the bottom of the world.
2) Vox have given us no reason to trust them, that indeed they greeted us with deception.
3) And they even antagonized us at a point when we were forced to strongly consider war for reasons of basic security.

Once we can talk about Vox, everything gets a whole lot simpler. Let's get everything written down so it's easy for nye to check it all off.

List of information we want to get:
-Intended tech paths for AC and Banana
-Exact list of Banana techs
-Existence of a fifth/sixth/seventh civ on continent/pangaea (if any)
-More maps of AC land (second/third cities?)

List of information we're willing to give:
-Map of "unowned" land between us and Banana
-Existence of Vox
-General situation with us and Vox (at war, we're winning)
-Our intended tech path (which is?)
-General info about our civil development (don't give maps of our cultural land - but could give summary info, like we're just about to settle our second city, floodplains river start, no city infrastructure cause we're geared for war)

In terms of agreements, it gets a bit more complicated.

Tech trading deals, from most desired to least desired:
1. "Free" tech trading agreement with AC and Nana, where each civ instantly gets what any other Civ has
2. "One-for-one" tech trading agreement with AC and Nana, where civs trade on a per-beaker basis only.
3. Bilateral agreement with us and AC, either free or one-for-one
4. No tech trading agreement at all
5. Any tech trading agreement that includes Vox

Border deals, from most desired to least desired:
1. Border with Nana up to 5 squares S of Splitsville
2. Border with Nana 5-8 squares S of Splitsville
3. No border agreement at all
4. Border with Nana more than 8 squares S of Splitsville

Does that help? Should at least be a good starting point for more discussion.

-Mudhut

[Blake]

Originally posted by notyoueither
If anyone has any reservations about information to be shared, speak now.

The next contacts with ACen and Nana need to see me adopt a more forthcoming position. If anyone has qualms about this it is time to state them.

The next big contact is to move the tech deal along. I am going to have to bring up Vox before ACen find them by themselves. I will presnt the situation as this continent has three civs and one going out. The one is going out because we are standing on their throat. They are too close.

The next seven days could see us lose this game. It could also see us very much more likely to win assuming I gain the blessings of ACen and Nana for killing Vox along with a technology sharing arrangement.

I have faith in you .

While I expect AC to see things from our point of view and while the dice are loaded, this is no less a gamble than not revealing the existence of Vox would be. Were we to gain a reputation as those who hide information and readily resort to deceit we would probably not be in a strong position to win the game, it is unreasonable to expect any ruse involving hiding The Voice to succeed.

Banana appear to be incompetent and unreliable enough to NOT make a good ally for AC, either from the perspective that they might be turned by us against AC, or they might just plain suck (like to refuse to join in the war) and that their lands would be better confiscated. I continue to have faith that AC will be do the right think and purge the weak from the lands, especially when they see that we're doing it (Well hey! If it's okay for GS to rush their neighbor, it's okay for us! Cheerio banana, nice knowing you! thanks for the cities!).

We might want to tell Banana: STOP TRAINING SETTLERS YOU CLOWNS! AC ARE GOING TO BACKSTAB YOU! GET AXEMEN! EVEN IF AC AREN'T OF MALICIOUS INTENT YOU'LL TEMPT THEM TOO MUCH!

I dunno. Might be an idea .

[Arrian]

We might want to tell Banana: STOP TRAINING SETTLERS YOU CLOWNS!

Indeed.

As to Mudhut's list:

Regarding tech trading, option #2 is the one I personally like best (beaker-for-beaker trades with IOU's/gold to be used to cover small gaps).

Otherwise, I think that's a good summary of how to proceed. I too trust NYE to act in the team's best interests.

-Arrian

[Mudhut]

Originally posted by Blake
I have faith in you .

BTW, I too have full confidence in nye's l33t diplomatic skills. I only wrote all that stuff out because I thought it might help you in discussions, if you need to approach it differently that's fine.

[notyoueither]

The more discussion here the better. People who disagree are more valuable when they say so. Even those who agree help by saying why and what they would do.

Yes, I will use Blakes shot when the time comes.