Vox Embassy

[-SafaN-]

uhu the most important thing is that vox stays alive, just to annoy GS.
Imagine vox having longbowmen

[binTravkin]

Crossbowmen would be fine too
In fact we should push diplomacy after trading Maths to the point we're clear about GS' further course (including trade of Construction to us which I find very unlikely, as opposed to trading it to Bananas).

Then we can declare TTT void (along with our 75/150b IOU ), invade Bananas and gift Vox whatever can help them, on the basis they become our allies/vassals.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Jhon Miller tells me over AIM that Vox will be sending us a formal letter by G-Mail requesting a trade of IronWorking 4 Archery & horse back Riding. They want to trade ASAP. The only downside is potentialy tipping our hand to GS and angering them

[Chaos Theory]

Horseback riding is worthless to us. We have no reason to turn on GS for such little value.

[PJayTycy]

The letter Donegeal wrote up:
"Esteemed Centaurians:
Greetins. It has been some time since a formal communication between
ur two nations has occurred, and I feel that this is something that
must be corrected.

As you are well aware, the people of Vox have been in what appears to
be a loosing war with Stormia for well over 1500 years. Resent events
have altered this state.

For centuries, Stormia has had invading armies in Voxian lands,
killing our women and raping our herds, all at the door steps of The
Voice. They are no longer there.

Twenty-five years ago (turn 77), Stormia saw fit to attempt to destroy
The Voice and the entire people of Vox. Although numbers were vastly
in their favor, they failed; and at the end of the Victory at The
Voice, not a single Stormian remains alive in Voxian lands.

The tide of the war has begun to change with the Victory at The Voice,
but the war is not won yet. Voxian forces are already taking the fight
to Stormian lands and very soon we will be capable of great victories
with fast and powerful military divisions. Unfortunately, Stormia is
capable of building a means of hindering these new divisions. We know
of a division to counter Stormian Spears, but lack the resources to
build them. The good news is that our scientist have told us that
there is an alternative technique to building the units to protect our
Horsemen, and with the lack of copper in our lands, we are confident
that this alternative metal will be within our grasp. While perfectly
capable of discovering this technique ourselves, we understand that
you already possess this knowledge. In light of this, we are offering
you both the techniques of Archery and Horseback Riding for that of
Iron Working.

Respectfully,
General Donegeal"

Some additional points. This trade is in your favor, I can't see GS or
Banana complaining about you taking it.

Another note from Donegeal "Archery cost 110 beakers. HBR cost 250.
Iron cost 200. Right off the bat, you are 160 beakers in the plus and
we'd still be in your debt. Try getting a deal like that from GS.
Every deal they make has to be even or to their advantage. They don't
understand the term "ally"." (This is based upon past experience)

More notes from Donegeal (he had outlined an his points):
"GS has copper as we have seen a Stormian Axeman.

We lack copper, and therefore lack the means of protecting our Horse
Archers from GS Spears and Axemen. Because we lack copper, and this is
a "fair" map, we figure we should have iron somewhere near by and
probably within our cultural borders as we have alot of culture.

Despite anything GS has told you, with iron, Vox will be able to crawl
out of the hole GS has put us in. It will be a fair fight.

Now I believe that the true question behind this trade, is do you want
a GS superpower in the southern half of the continent, or do you want
an ally in every sense of the word with Vox?

What will happen if you don't make the trade? Vox will get iron
eventually, but it might be too late. Now GS has the entire southern
half of the continent to settle. What do you think will happen when
the masters of micromanagement have such a large section of land to
micromanage? No one will be able to compete with them. The best and
only real chance there is from preventing GS from becoming a
superpower is Vox.

So, do you want a "cautious" Superpower in the South that is difficult
to get along with, or do you want a "friendly" Ally in every meaning
of the word?"


Jon Miller

[PJayTycy]

I agree horseback riding is of no use to us.
I'd rather give them iron working and have them in debt to us than receiving worthless "payment"

However, we are not sure at all they'll even have iron...

[binTravkin]

Archery cost 110 beakers. HBR cost 250.
Iron cost 200.

Archery costs 85, Iron Working 286.

Gifting them IW will make quite a bump in their power score, easily recognisable by GS.

Let's ask GS how long does it take them to finish Maths, this is when they can trade it.
After we have Maths, we can gift IW and forget about friendliness with GS (especially if we have Machinery).
It should take them 3-4 more turns to finish it.

[Lacero]

"Some additional points. This trade is in your favor, I can't see GS or
Banana complaining about you taking it."

I can't see why they put that in, of course GS would be upset about us taking it even if they hadn't asked us not to trade with them.

Vox would say they think they have iron, even if they didn't really believe it. Either way it declares us as an enemy of GS and that could help them more than iron working itself.

[PJayTycy]

vox is probably delaying their turn for diplomacy to catch up.


If GS does anything similar to our foreign intelligence, it will be impossible to hide.

Vox got a new tech 2 turns ago, so if GS sees Vox got an era2 tech in 3 or 4 turns + an era1 tech some time later, they'll know something fishy is up. At this time we are the only ones who've got alphabet, so it's no guess who they'll suspect.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Vox says they just began researching IronWorking themselves, I think the only way we could assist them without exposing ourselves to GS is for Vox to switch to a different Tech (Monarchy most likely) and for us to gift them IW at the point they would otherwise have researched it or atleast sufficiently delayed so that their researching of it atleast seems plausible.

Of course doing this would essentially seal a secret alliance with Vox against Strom which is itself attractive but carries the risk of permanently souring the Strom relationship if we are found out.

The mood seems to be that defeating Strom is more desirable then cooperating with them and hitting the 'Trifecta' is key to having the economic and military power to do this. Vox's military successes have been as good as could possibly be hoped for and are quite inspiring. Theirs a considerable window of opportunity here of preserving Vox and using them to cripple Storm. That window will likely close soon after Storm reaches Catapults. A modest force of Chucks in the south at the right time could tip the balance and blunt Storms Cat attacks as they could devastate Melle Units while Vox Horse Archers destroy Cats. It might even be wise to prioritize such an effort ahead of Operation Banana Peel by sending the first few chucks southward in Galleys and the second wave towards the Bananas.

[ForesterSOF]

I would want the souring to occur after we start pealing the bananas.

When they are cream pie would be better.

[Mart]

i noticed banana power recently jumped up. was that noticed/discussed?

[Chaos Theory]

I'd rather have GS munching on Vox and too distracted to bother us with the nanas than give them every reason to let up on Vox and support the nanas against us. If they end up dominating the southern lands as a result, well we have the northern lands. After the wonders we'll pocket, I like our odds head-to-head against GS at that point.

[-SafaN-]

mart, banana is creative, and as a result gain land more quickly then everyone else

ontopic: if we gift IW, GS will only see a jump in score for vox

they cannot say why, and actually the last thing they will think about is that AC broke the tech rule. GS will only know for sure when Vox tells them we gifted it.

The question is will Vox betray us, and tell GS, to get them off their own ass?

Even if GS declares war right here and now
they still have vox to deal with, and they are as far from us as we from them.

I'm not sure yet what we should do ... delaying it till math is an option ...

[binTravkin]

I noticed banana power recently jumped up. was that noticed/discussed?

We traded IW to them

I'd rather have GS munching on Vox and too distracted to bother us with the nanas than give them every reason to let up on Vox and support the nanas against us.

I would bet that there already is some effort on GS' part to play Bananas against us.

After the wonders we'll pocket, I like our odds head-to-head against GS at that point.

There are two problems with this one:
1. The southern continent is ~ 50% bigger.
2. They have a lot of floodplains.

I think idea about Vox researching something else is good, but the question is how long it would take them to research IW all by themself. I'd bet it's no less than 15 turns, which is too far away in future.

I'd prefer a following plan - we trade Maths, output our first wave of units, throw them at Bananas, then gift IW to Vox.
Why after trading maths - we want it and GS aint trading Construction to us (at least I don't believe they will).
There's no way GS can support Bananas except only garrisoning their southern city which imo is useless from strategic viewpoint.
Bananas have all the mil techs GS has and those few economic techs they don't aint gonna help them if gifted.

Vox should be able to hold out until GS gets ellies/cats, which I figure is some 25 turns from now (around which time our chukos should be near south of Banana territory).
We could even use a third wave of chukos/spears mounted on galleys and dispatched south as proposed.
Or if our first wave is completely successful at taking capital, we can send second one on galleys right to 2nd Banana city, make an amphibious landing, conquer the city and move south to Vox (that is, if the road we'll be building and the ones Bananas have won't be built to the southern city yet).