Vox Embassy

[binTravkin]

No message from them yet.

[-SafaN-]

gs asked to have no contact with them ... so we will be talking behind their backs

make sure in ALL negotiations (also with bananas) there is no sign of diplomatic talks with vox.

I am pro, since their tale will tell us a lot about how to contain GS if they are planning to go on a rampage

[binTravkin]

GS asked to have no trading and other deals with Vox.
They cannot ask us to have no contact and if they do I say screw them, I'm sick of their tone already with that 'or we will research it ourselves' bit.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I'll initiate a message, just saying hello and asking "what we can find to the south" and how they are doing. If they say anything inconsistent with Storms story I'll reveal our agreement with them and dig deeper..

[Senethro]

Impaler, remember we floated the idea of scamming Vox's tech from them. Could you contact NYE and ask if GS approved that plan?

[binTravkin]

I think the last diplo from them was quite condradictional with the scam idea.

[Senethro]

Screw them, the IRC illuminati know whats best for their teams!

NYE may need reminding to try selling the idea to them.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Based on the GNP data show Vox's total GNP has remained almost equal to Storms untill this last turn when Storm jumped to a decicive lead. That means they should still be at parity though Storm will start to pull away. We still maintain the lead both in rate and in totality due to MC being up our sleave. Our position at 1st in Crops, 1st in GNP and 2nd in Hammers looks quite strong, we need to maintain and hopefully maintain this dominance in the future.

Its suprizing to see that Vox is doing only marginaly worse then Banana graph wise. Vox is doing particularly bad on Food and I would suspect their population is frozen.

[binTravkin]

As soon as our third city gets a pasture we're gonna be the first on hammers aswell and the iron mine will only help to maintain that lead.
Besides, we have the ability to build forges and build them cheaply, which we should emphasize upon in all our cities, thus improving our production even more.

[Mart]

so forges should be among first builds

[Impaler[WrG]]

Agreed, I think Tass is scedualed for one after Barracks and Iron (Monkey) city will do that imediatly after its oblisk. That will end up having a Hammer output of ~11 which will keep us firmly in the lead on Industry, not to mention that whipping ware we are more advataged as well is a big source of Hammers which when factored in realy puts us ahead right now.

Atleast one of the three undiscovered teams is doin well industrialy to beat us by two hammers so we can anticipate desent competition once we go off continent.

[Maniac]

Is it really necessary to top all (in the future six) embassies? If we have lots of diplomacy, they'll stay on top anyway.

[Maniac]

For the record, there's a chat with Jon Miller going on.

[Impaler[WrG]]

CHAT LOG, sorry it once again got cut off by my IRC client but I think I have the problem fixed. First part of chat was basicly Jon describing the situation, its exactly as Storm said, they control countryside with Skirmishers (3 acording to JM).


[Impaler[WrG]] If they were without a client it makes sense
[Jon] so they will tell the other one, buy from me or I will make trouble for you
[Impaler[WrG]] yes they could be come King Makers
[Impaler[WrG]] In any case I predict lots of warfare between the other 3 teams
[Impaler[WrG]] with atleast one eliminated before contact
[Jon] \yeah, they would like our place a lto better
[Impaler[WrG]] well lets get back to that
[Jon] yeah
[Impaler[WrG]] AC is rather far north, it would be a BIG effort on our part to actualy get into such a war
[Jon] as I said, we have time
[Impaler[WrG]] I doupt Vox could offer us anything outside of the fact that we would be sticking it to Storm and disrupting their growth
[Impaler[WrG]] or can you?
[Jon] well, we will be weaker than you
[Jon] while Storm might be stronger, especially if they take us, and have unbridled growth
[Jon] so we can be a weak ally (the best type)
[Impaler[WrG]] so were basicaly looking at defacto-vassal hood if we should come to your aid
[Jon] a strong ally, you have to worry about them taking you
[Jon] we still play our game, but yes
[Jon] I can't flat out offer this
[Jon] but that is what I would suggest to my team
[Impaler[WrG]] Even if you dont offer it, its defacto
[Impaler[WrG]] At best would could only guard your current city and drive of Storm, they would remain a potent end ever present threat in the south
[Jon] well, yeah
[Jon] the only real positions in this sort of game is weak ally, strong ally, or equal
[Impaler[WrG]] You would require a major protective force for some time
[Jon] not sure about that
[Jon] our city doesn't need guarding, the issue is the country side
[Impaler[WrG]] yes thats what I ment
[Jon] if you have even skirmishers and archers, per say, that is a huge advantage for the side with skirmishers
[Jon] but a few more troops...
[Impaler[WrG]] Units strong enough to rebuff Skirmishers would be needed
[Impaler[WrG]] Ax or Swordsman
[Jon] not singly, just so the number is enough
[Jon] I can tell you now, I think we could throw off GS control of the country side with 3 archers
[Impaler[WrG]] Are their Copper or Iron deposits near to you?
[Jon] I have to ask my team to tell you that info
[Jon] also, remember thety control the country side, so improvements are currently not an option
[Impaler[WrG]] ok, my thoughts were to your ability to produce your own advanced units
* Maniac (Maniac@252.180-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #happy
[Impaler[WrG]] Looks like Maniac will be joining us, hes one of our main active players
[Jon] hell o M@ni@c
[Maniac] That's my oooooooold nick
[Maniac] Been talking for long already?
[Impaler[WrG]] A bit
[Impaler[WrG]] mainly we have been going over the Vox/Strom war
[Maniac] do you have a log or something to catch up?
[Impaler[WrG]] Storms tale sounds to be acurate, Skirmishers control the Vox contry side
[Maniac] ouch
[Jon] you remember when we discussed Civ3 list M@ni@c?
[Jon] not completely, but enough that we arne't in a good long term position
[Maniac] uh yeah. Don't worry I'm changed now. ;-)
[Impaler[WrG]] Vox feels its not in iminent danger of being concoured
[Maniac] as I expected :-)
[Jon] I mean, the problem with stuff like Swordsmen or Axemen is that they are equivilent to Skirmishers but much more expensive
[Maniac] a whole bunch of archers are hard to penetrate
[Jon] yep
[Impaler[WrG]] So Vox is basicly under siege
[Jon] not that bad yet
[Jon] we are still (mostly) using the spots we want to sue
[Jon] I don't feel like I can tell you how many troops they have, but as I said, if you had 3 archers there we coudl remove them from the country side
[Impaler[WrG]] JM is interested in having us save Vox's bacon (as I would be too if I were him)
[Maniac] any concrete plans how to do that?
[Maniac] you mean military or diplomatically?
[Jon] the issue is that they can produce more skirmishers than us.. and skirmishers are beter than archers, so I dont' see the situation getting better without outside assitance or a screw up by them
[Impaler[WrG]] Militarily in the distant future it sounds like
[Maniac] that would be very distant though
[Jon] distant doesn't mean tanks
[Impaler[WrG]] by Distant I ment early Medeivel
[Maniac] I know. Jon, do you think you can expand a bit by then, or are you on mere survival mode?
[Impaler[WrG]] We only just got Ironworking a bit ago and its probaly something like a 20 turn walk to your territory
[Maniac] And you said you want to 'sue' tiles? Do you mean negotiating a peace settlements?
[Maniac] and a navy would too take a while to build
[Jon] no, I meant that there aren't many tiles that they are keeping us from using
[Impaler[WrG]] ofcorse, pillage and sit on the best tiles, I do that to Barbs all the time
[Jon] ursj
[Jon] yeah
[Jon] we have some that we are keeping, but it is enough on their part that expansion is difficult
[Jon] (Sm lookinh sy civ4wiki.com right now
[Impaler[WrG]] so I imagine your not working anything better then forets?
[Jon] pretty much
[Impaler[WrG]] and thouse only because you fortified some archers their
[Jon] basically
[Impaler[WrG]] so how are you doing tech wise?
[Jon] we were OK, still might be decent
[Maniac] we can exchange tech lists if you want
[Jon] that woudl need to be discussed
[Impaler[WrG]] ofcorse
[Jon] remember, we did get religion a while ago
[Impaler[WrG]] which one was it again, Hinduism or Buddism?
* Maniac has quit (Quit: )
[Jon] Hinduism
* Maniac (Maniac@252.180-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #happy
[Jon] wb
[Maniac] thanks
[Maniac] IRC kinda froze
[Maniac] seem to have that once in a while
[Impaler[WrG]] anoying aint it
[Maniac] yeah especially if you aren't logging ;-)
[Jon] I don't like logging personally
[Impaler[WrG]] ok Hinduism means Polytheism, which we lack so theirs some potential their
[Jon] I bet we have some other techs you do not
[Impaler[WrG]] I assume that if we came to your rescue we basicaly have any of your techs we want?
[Jon] I bet that woudl be reasonable
[Maniac] no trading before?
[Maniac] then you could get useful stuff earlier
[Jon] I am not certain about that, Alphabet right?
[Impaler[WrG]] Were Financial and doing well so thats still probably not much you could supply us with
[Jon] in the early going we focused on tech, which meant we had a small army when the skirmishers arrived
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well you must have Myst, Poly and Archery
[Jon] and a few more
[Impaler[WrG]] probably farming and pottery as well
[Impaler[WrG]] hunting too as you said you had a scout
[Maniac] lol
[Impaler[WrG]] probably Bronze Working
[Maniac] but no copper
[Impaler[WrG]] maybe Animal Husbandry
[Impaler[WrG]] or Masonry
[Impaler[WrG]] If I were you guys I would now go for Writing if you dont already have it
[Jon] the issue is really that GS came on us when we had no army... and so completely took control of the country side early
[Jon] if they had waited 10 turns, things woudl be very different
[Jon] screenies I think we can provide
[Maniac] hmm Imp seems idle
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well AC is hesitant to get on the Bad side of Storm, the more incentive you can privide the more likly it is, but as of now I cant realy recomend my team stick its neck out
[Maniac] ah
[Jon] hmm, well the tech thing is delicate
[Jon] you know
[Jon] I mean, I think you are our best bte
[Jon] we will provide screenshots for free, we really just need a tip to be on top
[Jon] right now
[Maniac] ?
[Jon] (on top in our area, I dont' mean taking out GS)
[Jon] let me ask something on our forum
[Impaler[WrG]] yes I realize its touchy, did I atleast guess close?
[Maniac] are there other Voci online?
[Impaler[WrG]] Voxians?
[Maniac] we're usually open abour our techs and maps
[Maniac] Voci is the Latin plural
[Maniac] I don't think Controlli is Latin though ;-)
[Impaler[WrG]] yes ofcorse *damn my Latin*
[Jon] Donegeal is online
[Jon] we can together decide stuff for Vox
[Jon] he can't chat tohugh
[Maniac] pity
[Jon] I Think I have permission to tell about GS troops
[Impaler[WrG]] no IRC client?
[Maniac] easy to download. otherwise there's Poly's java chatroom
[Jon] I Dont' know what his issue is
[Jon] I think he has tried before
[Impaler[WrG]] shurely he can use that
[Jon] I can't on my work computers
[Impaler[WrG]] oh well
[Jon] OK
[Jon] they have 3 Skirmishers and 1 Warrior fortified
[Jon] the problem is that a fortified skirmisher on forst (per say) will slaughter attacking archers
[Impaler[WrG]] yes thats what 7 defense power
[Jon] and we build slower than them, because of not being able to use the better land
[Impaler[WrG]] it will stop Ax and sword as well
[Jon] yeah, but we actually outnumber them, we just don't hvea enough troops to eliminate them, and than survive the troops GS can send quickly
[Maniac] so go pillage their lands. ;-)
[Maniac] and fortify on their forests lol
[Impaler[WrG]] no they would be picked off moving in the open
[Jon] we need to eliminate them, and then defend
[Jon] yeah, that is my point about 10 more turns
[Jon] they moved in when we had no army
[Jon] they have an army now, we coudlnt' move in just 1 archer, we would have to move in serveral so we didn't have to worry about being picked off
[Impaler[WrG]] they havent yet thrown any troops against your capitol
[Jon] nope, it would be suicide, 80% bonus I Think
[Jon] 40%
[Jon] 80% would be much bettere
[Impaler[WrG]] and 50% for archer defence
[Impaler[WrG]] are you on a hill?
[Maniac] and 25% for fortify
[Jon] not on hill
[Impaler[WrG]] so 75 plus culture
[Jon] yeah
[Jon] they need cats
[Jon] to be economical
[Impaler[WrG]] so your looking a defense strength of around 6 which would mean they need about 2 skirmishers for every one archer to break through
[Jon] yeah
[Impaler[WrG]] well If I were them cats is just what I would be getting
[Jon] that is construction
[Jon] which (is hopefully) a ways away
[Impaler[WrG]] what the defences down, suicide 2 cats for colateral and swordsman or Axmen clean up probably with light losses
[Maniac] I guess you can't construct axemen or swordsmen?
[Impaler[WrG]] Mass swordsman could be technologicaly quicker but a bit bloodier
[Jon] they took control of the country side early, we couldn't connect anything
[Impaler[WrG]] but they can
[Jon] yeah
[Jon] part of the problem
[Impaler[WrG]] do you know of copper or Iron deposits they could quickly access?
[Jon] as I said, we just need a little bit
[Jon] we don't see all their terrain
[Impaler[WrG]] hummm
[Maniac] say have you talked with the Bananas yet?
[Jon] yeah
[Jon] I haven't been involved in that
[Jon] that was before Christmas, Donegeal and Mrboo haven't had as much time since than to talk to them in as much detail as we would like
[Maniac] well they're not really military strong anyway
[Maniac] though what's their take on Vox/Storm?
[Maniac] Mental note: we should send a mail to them
[Impaler[WrG]] yes
[Jon] apolyton is being a ***** righ tnow, so am havin g hard time lookin that up
[Jon] I will need to break off and go to the gym soon
[Impaler[WrG]] k
[Maniac] hmm, will you think about tech list and map exchanges?
[Jon] map exchange is go
[Jon] as soon as Donegeal gets some time
[Maniac] ah ok tx
[Impaler[WrG]] well lets make shure we havent missed any important topics
[Impaler[WrG]] anyone have a topic not yet covered?
[Jon] we are strong, but are falling behind (as time goes on) and can't stand up to cats
[Jon] we have tech, which we probably will share, maps which we will
[Jon] GS controls the country side
[Jon] you are a distance away (I think close enough.. and you needn't do anything to GS until you get there, so if we suddenly fall you can pretend you are just claiming territory to the south)
[Impaler[WrG]] JM: You Aren't Scary, You're Scared
[Impaler[WrG]] OT :P
[Jon] long term scared
[Jon] short term not
[Jon]
[Jon] I don't think Banana has told us much of permanance
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well we will keep in touch, I cant make any guarantees but I can see AC has a very important desision regarding our stance towards the south
[Impaler[WrG]] oh by the way do you have a name for the continent?
[Jon] Donegeal might
[Maniac] oh btw do you think we four are on a continent, or is it even larger?
[Jon] tbh, I am not big on the RP
[Jon] I think we are 4
[Jon] bad day for Donegeal, he got on but left
[Jon] and I missed him
[Jon] ah well
[Impaler[WrG]] The north is fully explored
[Jon] South isn't
[Jon] by us
[Jon] but from GSes actions, we dont' beleive it to be much larger
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well unless their are any other questions
[Impaler[WrG]] I think....
[Impaler[WrG]] This has Drogue on Long Enough!
[Jon] nah, Donegeal or myself will ge tyou the map
[Jon] he is having a tough time, so I might take over
[Impaler[WrG]] ok send all comunications to our G-mail account
[Jon] OK, no PMs?
[Jon] I have gmail btw, I Can talk there as well
[Impaler[WrG]] I prefer the G-mail, the whole team has access so if I am unavalible others can respond in an emergency
[Jon] yeah, OK
[Maniac] they're fowarded automatically to my hotmail ;-)
[Jon] well, OK
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well I think this was a good chat
[Jon] let's talk to eachother later than
[Jon] I will try to get you the screen shots befoer the new year
* Jon has quit (Quit: )
[Impaler[WrG]] I'll post a log Maniac, then post your follow up
[Maniac] do ah thanks

[Impaler[WrG]]

Vox sees imediatly that us coming to their rescue is their only hope and their basicaly willing to be our vassal if we save them.

Advantages - screws Storm in its long term expantion and control of the South and gives us a vassal ride for the rest of the game

Disadvantages - risks making a perminent enemy of second strongest player on the continent and lossing the one Civ likly to keep up with us technologicaly


Possible senario - Continue with Machinery Pop and Blitz war against Bananas commencing ~25 turns from now. Initial troops end their march in the Banana southern city. Durring war a second force is created along with transport gallys. This second force sails down the coast and lands to the west of Storm, possibly destroys their second city if its near and marches towards their capitol. The recuperated Banana veterans move into a position between Vox and Storm ready to kill any Skirmishers returning from Vox area. Both forces converge and pillage Storm country side paying particular attention to cottages. Stroms capitol will likly prove too difficult to breach and we then retreat our forces to Vox for recuperation and sue for peace. Storm will be left crippled and unable to ever contest our control of the northern half of the continent without fataly exposing themselves to a Vox/AC counter-stroke. Storm territory is then carved up at a later date and split between AC and Vox.