Vox Embassy

[Chaos Theory]

It looks like the timetable for GS conquering Vox is substantially longer than our timetable for conquering Bananas. If we want to help Vox, I'd say the best time is after eliminating the Bananas, because before CKNs, we don't have anything to actually attack GS with. Swordsmen would be the next best, but fall to axemen, and so aren't good to send alone.

[Maniac]

If we use the engineer to pop Machinery, I say we should forget about Vox and focus on Banana.

If we use the engineer for the pyramids, we could use the extra time to build a galley with axemen/swordsmen and come to Vox' help. According to them not that much would be necessary to liberate the countryside. Even two units cold probably suffice to tip the balance.

[Impaler[WrG]]

They feel they can hold out untill Storm gets Cats which we estimate is still a ways away for them, they need to do Math and Construction, but Storm did show a large GNP jump so we should revise our estimates. Time table

Turns from Now

20 - get Great Enginer pop Machinery
25 - Initiate Operation Banana Peel (thats the war in case your wondering)
35 - Completion of Banana Peel
45 - Landing on Stormy Coast
55 - Intense Pillaging of Storm heartland

Our biggest worry would be Storms aquisition of Construction for Eles and Cats. Eles can be stoped by cutting off Ivory supplies (hopefully they will be vulnorable) but Cats are for shure if they get them. Cats and Skirmishers alone can make a good combo when used in mass against stacks. If faced with them we should likly retreat untill horse archers, Maceman or Cats of our own can be brought to the battle. A road southward from the Bananas southern city will be critical to maintaing force levels in the south.

[Impaler[WrG]]

f we use the engineer for the pyramids, we could use the extra time to build a galley with axemen/swordsmen and come to Vox' help. According to them not that much would be necessary to liberate the countryside. Even two units cold probably suffice to tip the balance.

Their are Skirmishers fortified in Forests, 6 defence, 8 for forest hills. Also consider that Strom will continue to incresse its troop levels in Vox territory so by the time such forces could reach the area they would be insufficient.

I am reminded by a quote from Machiavelli going aproimatly
"Do not do people small injuries for they will seek their revenge, when you cross someone crush him so you need never fear his revenge".

If we cross Storm we must not simly kill a few skirmishers and force a retreat from Vox territory we must Crush them so we need never fear them again. Remember BLAKE is on this team and I for one would fear his revenge if Storm has any kind of functioning economy after we cross them.

[Maniac]

[SIZE=1]Time table

That seems optimistic to me. IIRC binTravkin said it would take ten turns to build up our army. And Banana being conquered in ten turns seems also too little. Simply walking to their capital will already take ten turns.

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I am reminded by a quote from Machiavelli going aproimatly
"Do not do people small injuries for they will seek their revenge, when you cross someone crush him so you need never fear his revenge".

From my Spartan days I seem to remember limited wars work just fine. And they're more fun!

Remember BLAKE is on this team

Yes and? He's not God or something. Most people are unnecesarily scared from well-known and *supposedly* good players such as Blake or Velocyrix. I bet I could beat them in a game of SMAC.


Btw, the plural of Vox is Voces, not Voci.

[binTravkin]

Atleast one of the three undiscovered teams is doin well industrialy to beat us by two hammers so we can anticipate desent competition once we go off continent.

I am thinking that Mercs are the ones currently in the lead, seeing how they are only ones beside us to have 3 cities.
I am also somewhat sympathetic to Mercs as I hope they will keep their declared neutrality.

Is it really necessary to top all (in the future six) embassies? If we have lots of diplomacy, they'll stay on top anyway.

At least now they aint messing things up as there's not so much activity.
If activity climbs so that the active discussion list becomes too big or if any of the civs get eliminated, I'll detop them.

one Civ likly to keep up with us technologicaly

Isn't really a disadvantage..

It looks like the timetable for GS conquering Vox is substantially longer than our timetable for conquering Bananas. If we want to help Vox, I'd say the best time is after eliminating the Bananas, because before CKNs, we don't have anything to actually attack GS with. Swordsmen would be the next best, but fall to axemen, and so aren't good to send alone.

Second that

Turns from Now

20 - get Great Enginer pop Machinery
25 - Initiate Operation Banana Peel (thats the war in case your wondering)
35 - Completion of Banana Peel
45 - Landing on Stormy Coast
55 - Intense Pillaging of Storm heartland

Our biggest worry would be Storms aquisition of Construction for Eles and Cats. Eles can be stoped by cutting off Ivory supplies (hopefully they will be vulnorable) but Cats are for shure if they get them. Cats and Skirmishers alone can make a good combo when used in mass against stacks. If faced with them we should likly retreat untill horse archers, Maceman or Cats of our own can be brought to the battle. A road southward from the Bananas southern city will be critical to maintaing force levels in the south.

This seems too optimistic, but the whole plan aint that bad


We basically have following option paths:

A pop machinery with GE regardless of whether Pyramids available
AA go for Bananas
AAA then go for GS
AB go for Storm with Galleys
ABA attack Bananas aswell
ABC get Bananas as partners in attacking GS (being minor, they should agree)
AC get Bananas as partners in attacking GS and ask them to build road for quick troop transfer (with our assistance)
ACN betray any of Vox/Bananas and mop them up, then betray the other - continent for us alone


B build Pyramids if available (else revert to A)
BA go for Bananas
BAA then go for GS
BB go for Storm with Galleys
BBA attack Bananas aswell
BBC get Bananas as partners in attacking GS (being minor, they should agree)
BC get Bananas as partners in attacking GS and ask them to build road for quick troop transfer (with our assistance)
BCN betray any of Vox/Bananas and mop them up, then betray the other - continent for us alone


I myself consider variant BA the best, because:

If we go the all-out war paths (A), we risk getting involved in too many wars and expierencing a setback, especially if GS and Bananas form an alliance.
If we go the cooperative bashing paths (C), we dont get Banana territory (although by later betraying we could get it anyway), meaning we're still too small to have a chance of victory in the long run and we could be running into situation where there are 2 civs, which are strenghtened by our mutual war and become much harder to crack later.

Having said that, I admit I like the idea of having two weaklings down south there.

IF it's possible I would like to have a following scenario:
1.We build Pyramids
2.Conquer the Bananas
3.Get our veterans involved in GS-Vox war

Knowing that we must finish a 1001 beaker tech for Chukonus and GS needs to do a research of 357+500+114, I'd say we'll arrive at Machinery only some 5-10 turns before GS gets Construction, and our war with Bananas will end roughly at the same time GS-Vox war ends.

Here's a plan to both delay GS a bit and give us some more lead:
Ask GS to research Masonry + Polytheism in 13 turns (OR we will do the former ourselves and trade the latter from the Vox) and offer Alphabet for them both (but with a credit balance going into the next deal, which would be IW for Maths).
That way we will
- delay GS' acquisition of Maths and Construction a bit
- get a shot at Monotheism after Alphabet (and switch Organised religion together with Representation for even more boosted production)

[PJayTycy]

Can't we quickly contact the mercs and ask them to defend Vox ?

[Snoddasmannen]

Although I initially loathed the idea of not using the GE to get chuks early, I'm afraid I must now side with BT and go for option BA. It's likely the best thing long term, assuming the Bananas don't get some boosting from a third part.

I almost hope somebody else nabs the pyramids however

Btw, the Bananas are actually quite a nuisance to Storm, no wonder they want to partner up with as to get rid of them. They will be tied up in conflict with Vox for some time, leaving the Bananas time to fester on their northern flank.

[binTravkin]

I almost hope somebody else nabs the pyramids however

Was feeling the same for some time
I am very skeptical about Bananas getting any outside help. If we're really 4 on this continent, an expedition force is highly unlikely, and the Bananas aint gonna get Alphabet for long enough to keep them from getting crucial military techs if only GS decides to stab us in the back and provides them with Construction.


If we could get Bananas to aid Vox, we could stay out of trouble and maintain a good fasade vs GS.
That, however, involves risk of them doing some mil buildup which isn't really desirable to us. Im also afraid Bananas cannot be trusted - they seem a bit too sympathetic to everyone and their diplomatical stances are somewhat unstable.

[binTravkin]

A message which came to my box yesterday, Im apparently checking pm's not often enough

We have stumbled upon your exploring scout near

Let me say a quick 'Hello!'.

Our team is working on an actual greeting, but with the holidays, I am not sure when that will get done.

Nice to see there are atleast two oter peaceful teams on this continent!

Donegeal, The Voice of Voxism

[binTravkin]

Just read the log (at last).
We need to get to know their techs.

They apparently lack Masonry, so we should probably hint them to research it and build walls - that will rise their defense by 10% and make them more resistant against bombardment aswell.

The next thought is that they need either a handful of chukonus or Construction to get them out of trouble.
Both involves betraying GS at some point.

[PJayTycy]

What are our priorities ?

Getting Bananas out of the way or slowing down GS?

I think spending resources (build-queue-time) only to slow down somebody else is not good, except if we are clearly in the lead of everybody else.

I'd say screw Vox. We need to be the strongest of the 2 players on our continent, but the most important part of that = 2 players on our continent.

We are now in the lead, mainly due to our lucky tech-pop, not because we play better or have that much better terrain. We can ofcourse use this one-time benefit to stay ahead awhile, but our current "strength" is not fundamental and will vanish.

The only way to stay in the lead is to actually use our advantage, which is we're very close to our chokunus and nobody expects it. The longer we wait to use them, the more other teams will think we might have them, especially if we give GS and/or Banana Alphabet.



This whole Vox-thing is not to my liking. Screw them and get the 3-way techtrade deal going, then smash the Bananas.

[ForesterSOF]

Take out Nanas first then reevalutate which side (Vox or GS) is best for our long term plans.

[Lacero]

by the time bananas are taken out gs will be better long term, unless we do something sooner. Vox can't found cities or link up resources, if they're very lucky they'll stay still power wise. I agree with PJ.

[binTravkin]

We need to be the strongest of the 2 players on our continent, but the most important part of that = 2 players on our continent.

We need to be the strongest on our continent regardless of the civ count here.
Being strongest is a tad easier when you have 2 weak opponents fighting each other and the third just being a sitting duck (or involved in the weakling fight too).
Im feeling there's still much illusion in the air about GS role.
I just wanted to remind that coop victory is off which means GS will plot against us sooner or later and we better have them weak at that point.

In other words, divide and conquer.

We are now in the lead, mainly due to our lucky tech-pop, not because we play better or have that much better terrain. We can ofcourse use this one-time benefit to stay ahead awhile, but our current "strength" is not fundamental and will vanish.

If we dont screw things up or someone else doesn't get as lucky as we are, I dont see how it should be wanishing.
If we use our forges and early Colossus (and maybe Pyramids) to the best, that advantage will translate into even more advantage.

The only way to stay in the lead is to actually use our advantage, which is we're very close to our chokunus and nobody expects it. The longer we wait to use them, the more other teams will think we might have them, especially if we give GS and/or Banana Alphabet.

Staying on top in research does not necessarily mean using the military part of our current advantage.
It does, however, imply keeping other potential research powerhouses as low as possible.

I think spending resources (build-queue-time) only to slow down somebody else is not good, except if we are clearly in the lead of everybody else.

We can use other means to tip the balance in our favour.
Gifting Vox a tech or two doesn't cost us much but can prove quite valuable to them.
Similarly, tricking/bribing Bananas into aiding Vox does not require us to spend any resources apart from probable tech payment (which they shoul be very eager to accept).
With Bananas stranded in a long-term war with GS and GS paused by Bananas-Vox alliance, we can request Bananas passage right as if we were to assist them in their struggle (which I expect wont be going very good for them), then as our units are positioned right next to their cities, declare war, take their cities and then proceed to some 'peacemaking' in south..
That would also give us a somewhat less suspicious outlook while doing military buildup as Bananas will be thinking we want to strike GS.
From the diplomatical viewpoint it would be quite logical if we were wanting to take out GS, as they are the only real opposition here to us.