Vox Embassy

[Lacero]

Yes, mistake or trick?

They haven't quite covered their research bar either, unless they modified it before scribbling they're not doing much research.

[PJayTycy]

It's weird they edited out the text, but not the icon ...

[binTravkin]

Yeah, one would think if that's a trick and they switched just for the moment to take the screenie, no need to edit the text.
From the other side if they wanted to hide they building that settler, they'd again switch to something else and dont bother about the text.
I'd say it's a mistake, not a trick.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I think it shows their spirits are up, they haven't resigned to losing the game and are even taking the foresight to conceal information from us perhaps in suspicion that we might give it to GS.

If they really are going to go for a settler thats a very bold move, they will need a crap load of archers to escort the new settler to its build site but if they can pull it off their going realy start clawing their way back into the game. GS move to domestic emphisis may have been premature.

It still likely that Vox will be in trouble once GS acquires IronWorking and gets access to Swordsman.

Diplomatic response should be a friendly, "glad to see your holding your own and thanks so much for the map its going to be very helpfull, oh by the way did you forget to blot that settler out? Settler when under Skirmisher lock-down is very ballsy we wish you luck fighting out or slipping out of GS choke just be careful not to weaken your capitol to make an expansion they could get swordsman soon"

[binTravkin]

They shouldn't be having problems escorting that settler - if they have killed at least one skirmisher, that means GS is left with only 2-3 and that is way too little to do any damage to an equal amount of archers (while I suspect Vox should be now having around double the archers GS has Skirmishers).
Also GS is not likely to move it's Skirmishers out as they hold key locations, especially because their second base might become vulnerable in such case.
Their second base also must be having low production (on flood plains and they skyrocketed their GNP, which means they're actually working those plains), which means that they must've produced a little if anything military in the last turns (as capital was busy with settlers).

Did Vox list their techs last we talked?
If not so, it should be seen whether they got Bronze working at least. If they do, they can settle on a copper source and secure themselves with Axes up until ellies/cats.

I'd express Impaler's message in such an edition:

"Glad to see your holding your own and thanks so much for the map - its going to be very helpfull.
By the way did you forget to blot that settler out?
Settler when under Skirmisher lock-down is very ballsy.
We wish you luck fighting out or slipping out of GS choke, just be careful not to weaken your capitol to make an expansion as we suspect they could get swordsman soon.

Also, do you have Bronze Working? If you do, it could be wise to settle your next city on a copper source, to secure yourselves with axes in case GS attacks with swordsmen."

Thoughts?

[Impaler[WrG]]

I had a chat with Jon Miller of Vox, he had yet more good news about their war with Storm. It seems they have sent out the Settler and with escorts, this weakened their capitol enough for Storm (perhaps in Desperation) to make an all out Skirmisher attack. He reports that 3 skirmisher's died assaulting their city which held. I'm not sure if that represents all of GS skirmishers in the area but it most likely means they decided not to pursue the Settler so its safe from immediate attack. Theirs also the possibility that they could start improving their terrain once again or chop some forests. It sounds like the plan to take the battle to GS now, I suspect their preparing to build Horse Archers and their second city will be built on or near horses.

JM asked about the possibility of Tech trading and I didn't mention were prohibited from doing so, rather I just said they have nothing to offer us. They in fact do have HorseRiding but were in no particular need of it right now.

I layed out our strategy of cautious optimism and nutrality untill they are able to prove themselves capable of holding their own and we access our strength vs gathering Storm. They will likley fell down hearted when they learn were going to war against Bananas first. We might want to entertain the option of war against GS first though. A navel landing on their shore could catch the bulk of their army when its in Vox territory and might arive before catapults are on the scene in force.



FULL TEXT

[02:28] Jon Miller: ah, hello
[02:28] Jon Miller: is nice to tlak to you
[02:29] Jon Miller: we would like to know if you would be willing to join us in attacking GS..
[02:29] Impaler: I've been on hiatus but am back to do some Diplomacy for my team, things are heating up latly
[02:29] Jon Miller: hmm, for us also
[02:29] Jon Miller: in fact, we just won a great victory against GS
[02:30] Impaler: Excelent, we admire your determination in the face of an early rush
[02:31] Jon Miller: yeah, and we shall be persuing action against them
[02:31] Jon Miller: also, how interested are you in tech trading?
[02:31] Impaler: Were doing well in Tech, theirs probably not anything you could offer us
[02:32] Jon Miller: we have emphasied some techs which others might not... but understandable
[02:32] Impaler: what are your traits again, I forget
[02:33] Jon Miller: we have been injured by GS obviously, and I am sure have fallen behind
[02:33] Jon Miller: I don't remember, we are catherine I Think
[02:33] Jon Miller: no wait, we decided not to do tahat
[02:33] Jon Miller: no, we are
[02:33] Jon Miller: sorrry
[02:36] Jon Miller: the important thing is that we need to take the fight to them
[02:36] Jon Miller: can I ask a questoin.. how close are you to catulpults? I really see no serious gains made without them
[02:36] Jon Miller: or do you already have caultpults
[02:37] Impaler: I recall that the last time you spoke of a military success against GS we were able to observe a dip in their powergraph that was consistent with the loss of a unit, can we expect another such dip?
[02:37] Jon Miller: yes
[02:37] Jon Miller: you play before them?
[02:37] Impaler: so I take it you killed one of the skirmishers thats rowing your territory
[02:38] Jon Miller: 3
[02:38] Impaler: 3 skirmishers?
[02:38] Jon Miller: yeah
[02:38] Impaler: wow thats impressive
[02:39] Impaler: We though you only had access to archers
[02:39] Jon Miller: honestly, it was a chance... we took, they took, and we came out successful
[02:39] Impaler: and they were defending forests meaning it would be an excedily bloody attack to remove them
[02:39] Jon Miller: they attacked
[02:40] Impaler: oh and your city held
[02:40] Jon Miller: yep
[02:41] Impaler: yes that makes sense, I would estimate you had roughly 5 archers on defence vs 3 skirmishers thats not a very wise attack for GS
[02:41] Jon Miller: but although we are now up in who has caused the most unit loss... we are down in who controls territory
[02:41] Jon Miller: asI said, we made a gamble, and they took us up on it
[02:41] Impaler: I though you had a border expantion resently
[02:41] Jon Miller: I think they have 4 cities
[02:42] Jon Miller: we have 1
[02:42] Impaler: actualy I think their still at 3
[02:42] Jon Miller: but eys, we would be in trouble withiyt cultue
[02:42] Jon Miller: they are up to 235 points
[02:42] Impaler: that Holy city culture is proving valuable
[02:42] Jon Miller: yep
[02:43] Jon Miller: how are you doing up north?
[02:43] Impaler: Well were mosty just building up at this point
[02:43] Jon Miller: a nice spot to be in
[02:44] Impaler: Well from what we hace seen GS has some crazy good terrain
[02:44] Jon Miller: yeah, and the good terrian between us they have also
[02:44] Jon Miller: we were hoping for it when we fisrt met, buth with the skimishers we couldn't take it
[02:44] Impaler: Ours aint bad but were making very efficinet use of it and are building very efficiently with optimized whippings
[02:45] Jon Miller: excellent
[02:45] Jon Miller: I need to learn more about when to whip properly
[02:45] Impaler: theirs a lot of complex math involved but if you know the equations you can build faster then it would otherwise seem possible
[02:46] Jon Miller: can you tell me more?
[02:46] Impaler: Were at 3 cities right now and are planning the 4th
[02:46] Jon Miller: I noteice that you are still leading, I think that that truly reflects position
[02:47] Jon Miller: but don't underestimate GS
[02:47] Impaler: I'll see if I can dig up the guides that we used, If I remembr correctly Blake wrote them
[02:47] Jon Miller: hmm, perhaps I should fine them
[02:47] Impaler: they are public
[02:47] Jon Miller: we have 3 players who have decent Civ4 expeirence
[02:48] Impaler: You Dis and Eli?
[02:48] Jon Miller: and 1 hasn't been active for a while
[02:48] Impaler: no wait Dis just posts in OT
[02:48] Jon Miller: Eli hasn't contributed in a long time, Dis does but doesn't seem very enlightened
[02:48] Impaler: so your mostly running the show?
[02:48] Jon Miller: righ tnow
[02:49] Jon Miller: Donegealstill contributes, so does Dis
[02:49] Jon Miller: and a couple of others
[02:49] Impaler: I like the atmosphere in my team its rather decentralized, a few core players but no out right leader
[02:49] Jon Miller: are early turn player seemed good, but hasn't been contributing much recently
[02:50] Jon Miller: we wouldn't hvae a leader, but then we wouldn 't hvae a turn player
[02:51] Jon Miller: just to be clear, oyu are tech trading with BAnana?
[02:51] Impaler: bintravin plays our turn a lot but so dose PJ, their two of the main strategists along with me, about 5 other members also contribute mostsly to voice opinions on others proposals
[02:51] Impaler: Yea were tech leader right now
[02:52] Impaler: Score leader as well
[02:52] Jon Miller: yeah, so ni the recent past only I and Donegeal strategize, and then we have some more who just comment
[02:52] Impaler: I think Banana is second in Score
[02:52] Jon Miller: yep, GS 3rd
[02:52] Jon Miller: only we are down, score wis
[02:53] Impaler: I think the Horde on the other continent/s is also down
[02:53] Jon Miller: I thought that was the mercenaries
[02:53] Impaler: humm perhaps I got them backwards
[02:53] Jon Miller: who is Khan
[02:53] Impaler: their both kill stuff teams :P
[02:53] Impaler: my Avatar you mean?
[02:54] Jon Miller: I don't see any close alliances over there, many of the players who hated the Horde are in sarantium
[02:54] Impaler: its a character for Disney's Tail Spin adapted from the Jungle Book movie
[02:54] Jon Miller: no, mean Khan is the leader of the other civ near us in points
[02:54] Jon Miller: I know Tailspin, use to watch it and Ducktails a lot
[02:54] Impaler: what team is that?
[02:55] Impaler: Isnt Horde Mongols, it must mean Gengis Khan
[02:55] Jon Miller: that is what I wasn't sure of, I thought Khan was mercs, but yeah, they could be Horse
[02:55] Jon Miller: if it is Horde, then they aren't doing well.. but maybe there is warefare over there also
[02:55] Impaler: Well either way it looks like Sarantium is going to be the major power over seas
[02:56] Jon Miller: I would sort of expect the mercs not to do well, no way for them to win
[02:56] Jon Miller: yeah
[02:56] Jon Miller: them or Horder were the only ones I would expect
[02:56] Impaler: well thats the way they want to play, I think its a cool idea and I aplaude them for the novelty
[02:58] Jon Miller: yeah, is interesting
[02:58] Jon Miller: but they kinda got scrweed by the setup
[02:58] Jon Miller: they would have been better over here, where several teams could pay for their services
[02:58] Impaler: yea set up is half the game
[02:59] Impaler: I'm wondering if you can confirm some speculation
[02:59] Jon Miller: possibly
[02:59] Impaler: You sent us a screen shoot a ways back andheir was a picture of a Settler being built in your capitol
[03:00] Jon Miller: yeah
[03:00] Impaler: Are you guys trying to expand? I imagine you sent the settler out with escorts and the reduced defenders in your capitol was the reason GS attacked you?
[03:00] Jon Miller: is that what you wanted to know?
[03:00] Jon Miller: yeah
[03:01] Impaler: so thats the gamble you were refering too, sending out some of the archers on escort and risking the capitol
[03:01] Jon Miller: but we must expand, we might already be long temr dead since we hvae not been able to
[03:02] Impaler: yea I agree once city is totaly un-viable
[03:02] Impaler: your going to need to find some Copper too, archers wont hold out very long
[03:02] Jon Miller: it is something to consider
[03:03] Impaler: If I was you I'l plant that settler on Copper assuming their is any to find
[03:03] Jon Miller: we have plans for it already
[03:03] Impaler: It sucks for hammer production but its imune to pillage
[03:04] Impaler: ok good to hear
[03:04] Jon Miller: yep... and even with this victory GS still has the advantage
[03:04] Jon Miller: not in what we can see, but in what they can produce
[03:04] Impaler: yea they can relitivly easily rebuild their losses
[03:05] Jon Miller: yep
[03:05] Jon Miller: and they have Axemen, which is more dangerous on offense
[03:06] Impaler: Well keep on holding out, if we become powerfull enough to force GS to leave you alone we will likley send a force down to the south to 'interfere'
[03:06] Jon Miller: would be cool!
[03:07] Jon Miller: catulpults would be nice also, or construction
[03:07] Impaler: How much longer do you think you can hold out?
[03:07] Jon Miller: it will all depend on catulpults I Think
[03:07] Impaler: yea cats would be decicive
[03:08] Jon Miller: do you know how close GS is to it? we might need to trade for it, or something
[03:08] Impaler: I think their near finishing Math
[03:09] Jon Miller: that is troubling
[03:09] Jon Miller: when you be willing to trade us the techs for cats, where we trade you later techs or have some other future payment option?
[03:10] Impaler: Were not currently persuing Catapults, our tech path is rather secret right now, sorry
[03:11] Jon Miller: OK
[03:12] Jon Miller: well, we might be able to survive them ahving cats for some turns before we do, but that will be a difficulty forus
[03:12] Impaler: Were not desided yet on our long term diplomatic position on GS, so far theirs no bad blood between us but were worried about them being a long term rival
[03:13] Impaler: We dont want to see them dominate the whole of the south but we also dont wont to make a powerfull enemy
[03:13] Jon Miller: yeah, I don't know about BAnana... but GS seemed to not think they were a threat to them
[03:13] Jon Miller: right now gS is better then us, I don't see that changing unless we get assistance
[03:14] Impaler: yes agreed but we will not be able to openly support you for some time, if ever, it depends on how our own economy progresses and the diplomatic landscape
[03:15] Impaler: The stronger you are and the longer you hold out the better the possibility of assistence
[03:15] Impaler: transit times to the south alone would be nearly 20 turns by land
[03:16] Impaler: perhaps useing Gallies we could speed that up but their expensive
[03:16] Jon Miller: yeah, but if you want to dominate this continent, you need to make sure your rivals are weakened
[03:16] Jon Miller: and we aren't your rivals.. and us falling only aids your rivals
[03:17] Impaler: True IF we we had determined definitivly that we cant be at peace with GS, but thats not yet the case
[03:18] Jon Miller: GS are your rivals, whether you are peaceful rivals or not
[03:18] Impaler: getting into a stalmate war with them would weaken the whole continent
[03:18] Jon Miller: true... there are things to weigh, but supporting us is easy
[03:18] Impaler: opening up potential for attack from a Sarantium lead aliance
[03:19] Jon Miller: I don't see Sarantium ever allying with the Horde
[03:19] Jon Miller: there is real bad blood there, remember, a lot of them were in Vox before Beta founded Saratium
[03:19] Impaler: more likly they pay the Mercs
[03:19] Jon Miller: yeah
[03:20] Jon Miller: but the mercs aren't a strong ally....
[03:20] Jon Miller: as I think that they can be bought
[03:20] Impaler: One last thing you must keep all our dealings confidential
[03:21] Impaler: And not attempt to sour our relations with GS
[03:21] Jon Miller: yeah, no, we dont' discuss things with GS anymore
[03:22] Jon Miller: I had a good talk with NYE, and found that he and GS feel we scrweed them in a way we didn't
[03:22] Jon Miller: so until weare dangerous enough for them to come talk to us, I don't see us talking
[03:23] Impaler: I've gotten the story from both sides and its seems like a rather regretable series of insidents
[03:23] Jon Miller: yeah, but some of the things GS imagines never occured
[03:23] Impaler: escalations and bluffs by both sides, no one willing to make the first consiliatory move
[03:24] Jon Miller: we made a number
[03:24] Jon Miller: after they war decked us, I managed to convince my civ that they were dangerous because of the Skimishers, since than we have sued for peace
[03:24] Jon Miller: afte ra while, I talked to NYE, and found out the reasons they were against us, and many of the reasons are just in their imagination
[03:25] Impaler: that only works if the war presents a real danger of stalmating
[03:25] Jon Miller: yeah, but that is the only way I see us survivng
[03:25] Impaler: consivably they might be suffering some war weariness now and might become more receptive to the idea
[03:25] Jon Miller: unless you or Banana help out, which right now oyu aren't
[03:26] Impaler: I wouldnt't hold out much hope of help from Bananas
[03:26] Jon Miller: I dont'
[03:26] Jon Miller: I Think they are in GS pocket, to be honest
[03:26] Impaler: Their diplomaticaly scaterbrained and not really all that strong
[03:27] Jon Miller: perhaps..
[03:27] Jon Miller: I dont' have any strong evidence
[03:27] Impaler: Have you been able to do anything with them diplomaticaly?
[03:28] Jon Miller: we have tried
[03:28] Impaler: but they never respond right?
[03:28] Jon Miller: they do
[03:28] Jon Miller: plat is who I talk to
[03:28] Impaler: or take months to do so
[03:28] Jon Miller: plat is on gmail, I talk to him occasionally at like 5 am
[03:29] Impaler: Well I think their going to be hesitant to cross GS, even more then we are
[03:30] Jon Miller: as I Said, I think they might be in GS's pocket
[03:30] Impaler: possibly, its hard to say
[03:31] Jon Miller: yeah
[03:31] Impaler: well I'll tell my team mates of your successfull defence of your Capitol, any thing else you would like to convey?
[03:32] Jon Miller: I wish for peaceful relations... would like you to not talk to GS about anything.. etc
[03:33] Jon Miller: also, the idea of tech trades, possibly where we pay you back later
[03:36] Impaler: Ok and I'll add that were expecting some developments in the next few turns which will tell us ware we stand and we may begin to set down some long term plans
[03:36] Impaler: possibly I could have some good news for you at that point
[03:36] Jon Miller: cool, talk to you later
[03:36] Impaler: later
[03:36] Jon Miller: I am not always on this copmuter
[03:37] Jon Miller: but if I am, AIM will be up
[03:37] Impaler: do you have some other contact info that you use, I have AIM, ICQ and Yahoo
[03:37] Jon Miller: it is also likely to be up if I Am not, in which case I won't respond
[03:37] Jon Miller: I hae AIM, GMAIL, MSN (somewhere)
[03:37] Jon Miller: GMAIL is normally up at work, AIM at home
[03:38] Impaler: I've got Dis Eli and McMedows ICQ's of the forum and added them, I try to conduct most diplomacy with you though
[03:38] Impaler: and through the G-mail
[03:38] Jon Miller: Eli and McMEadows aren't currently very active
[03:38] Jon Miller: Dis can be contacted
[03:39] Impaler: k
[03:39] Jon Miller: (byu not ery active, they hvaen't posted in over a month (well McMeadows maybe once))

[binTravkin]

Excellent initiative Impaler!

I liked the catapults ignore maneuver, but this was simply hilarious:

Were not currently persuing Catapults, our tech path is rather secret right now, sorry

Anyways, from what I hear, they're being pretty desperate and knowing cats are going to start being produced in 20-25 turns I'd be in their place too.

The move by sending someone down to help Vox seems tempting, but we should, as you said, review our plans once we get Machinery.

Bananas aint gonna do any harm neither to us nor Vox, at least in any foreseeable future, we can leave them alone for a moment and contain Vox.
But if we do so, we deploy weak and costly forces against strong enemy.
If we get in stalemate there, we could be pretty much screwed, therefore I still prefer lightning strike on Bananas and then rush south and try to catch GS before destroying Vox.

[ForesterSOF]

More for relations then need I would consider trading for Horse Riding.

[binTravkin]

Well, that's gonna spoil relations with GS, which we don't really want at least until we get Maths

[Impaler[WrG]]

Yes its not worth it to tip our hand, as I told JM were we not going to piss off GS with anything LESS then a full scale attack.

[-SafaN-]

and how will GS find out we traded with them?

[binTravkin]

In trade screen, once we exchange Alphabet with Maths.
Also, in score screen seeing jump in both Vox and us.

I think PJay can give a definitive answer

[N35t0r]

what about they gift us HBR, and a turn or three later we gift them our side of the deal?

We can always claim we found a hut on an island after we get sailing...

[Chaos Theory]

What exactly are we going to do with HBR?

[binTravkin]

We don't really need it, so if we're gonna gift techs back and forth we rather simply gift something to Vox as HBR will only give us unneeded score boost.