Imperio: Diplomacy Thread #2

[timmy827]

The deal couldn't be peacefully cancelled for 10 turns, but no restriction on going to war. That may be what confused some people.

Definitely should try.

[Dreylin]

Yep, this would be a good deal if we can swing it. Besides, the Gold only goes away for a few turns until we capture one for ourselves...

[Zeviz]

I am finally more or less caught up, so is the summary below correct?

1. Imperio is backstabbing their closest ally and research partner.
(They are still getting most of Templar GNP for free, while waiting to steal their cities, right?)

2. Imperio never promised to help us against PAL.

3. They are lying about their knowledge of English and stonewalling us the same way Templars did.
(They've managed to pull off complicated research pacts, a 3-way deal with PAL and Banana, etc.)

4. They've already broken their promise when they thought they could get away with it.
(They should have either removed the Gunpowder clause from peace deal before signing, given us free Gunpowder, or at least tried to renegotiate that part of the deal.)

If the above is correct, I'd vote for ignoring the deal completely. The plan to trap Imperio's army is appealing, but I'd rather keep all of Templar cities we capture than hope that Imperio will leave their entire army in a vulnerable spot before our medieval units become obsolete. (Note that if we do capture Jerusalem, Templars are likely to waste most of their reserves against us, so Imperio will have no reason to commit their entire SoD to Templar front.)

EDIT: So I would capture Constantinopole before Jerusalem, because it's a better city, and our army is closer to it.

PS As for the Gold deal, the question is whether we expect peace to last long enough for the extra draft penalty to wear off. If we reinforce Cape Town before enforced 10 turn peace expires, Imperio might not re-declare right away, so the Gold deal might make sense.

[Swiss Pauli]

I am finally more or less caught up, so is the summary below correct?

1. Imperio is backstabbing their closest ally and research partner.
(They are still getting most of Templar GNP for free, while waiting to steal their cities, right?)

Not exactly: they've been sponsoring Templars for thousands upon thousands of beakers, and we've been telling them to backstab because Templars suck. They got a sweet deal for peace because Banana (un)intentionally stitched us up.

2. Imperio never promised to help us against PAL.

True, they've stayed on the fence.

3. They are lying about their knowledge of English and stonewalling us the same way Templars did.
(They've managed to pull off complicated research pacts, a 3-way deal with PAL and Banana, etc.)

Not really: their English really is pretty poor, but it's certainly true that they do tend to go silent when they're faced with something they don't like. The gunpowder-nationalism-peace deal coup was really a jigsaw where all the pieces fell perfectly into place: I'd need to double check the timings, but I'm pretty sure they sent us the peace deal before making the offers in-game to PAL & Banana.

4. They've already broken their promise when they thought they could get away with it.
(They should have either removed the Gunpowder clause from peace deal before signing, given us free Gunpowder, or at least tried to renegotiate that part of the deal.)

Yes and No (as we've been discussing). But it was certainly in their interest to have replied to our email asking them to hand over Gunpowder.

If the above is correct, I'd vote for ignoring the deal completely. The plan to trap Imperio's army is appealing, but I'd rather keep all of Templar cities we capture than hope that Imperio will leave their entire army in a vulnerable spot before our medieval units become obsolete. (Note that if we do capture Jerusalem, Templars are likely to waste most of their reserves against us, so Imperio will have no reason to commit their entire SoD to Templar front.)

EDIT: So I would capture Constantinopole before Jerusalem, because it's a better city, and our army is closer to it.

I don't think that's a good idea: we need to catch Imperio with their pants down to get rid of that mega-stack, but also not to give them time to switch to military builds and techs. If we capture Constantinople instead of Jerusalem, our army may become a bit of a sitting duck: it will take 2-3 turns to get there, a couple more to bomb down the defences, and the city would still be in revolt when peace with Imperio expires, so they could attack without warning with 1 move units.

Also, there's no reason for Templars to attack Jerusalem if we take it: as you point out, Constantinople is a better city. And according to mh's calculations, most units are now tied down to their cities because of from whipping & WW.

PS As for the Gold deal, the question is whether we expect peace to last long enough for the extra draft penalty to wear off. If we reinforce Cape Town before enforced 10 turn peace expires, Imperio might not re-declare right away, so the Gold deal might make sense.

The gold deal makes sense now seeing as it masks our intentions, and gives us a happy boost. In any event, it can't hurt us to propose it.

[Zeviz]

Not exactly: they've been sponsoring Templars for thousands upon thousands of beakers, and we've been telling them to backstab because Templars suck. They got a sweet deal for peace because Banana (un)intentionally stitched us up.

My point is that if they are still getting gpt from Templars after signing a deal to split their lands, there is no reason for us not to expect the same treatment. (If they can betray their Templar allies without a warning, they can betray us without a warning too.)

As for whether to take Constantinopole, nobody says we have to leave our entire army to defend it. We can leave it with just enough garrison of drafted Oromos to present a tempting target to Imperio, and then smash Imperio's army when they capture the city. The difference between this and proposal to trap their army when they attack Templars is that it could take them a couple dozen turns to get around to capturing Constantinopole, while with sit around with largest army in the world doing nothing.

We've invested into a large army instead of infrastructure, so now the time is working against us as we pay maintenance on army that is going to become obsolete in about 30 turns, while others are enjoying benefits of their infrastructure investments. (Compare combined GNP of PAL, Imperio, and Templars with what we have to see why I am so worried.)

[Swiss Pauli]

Firstly, there's no point warning an ally that you're about to betray, is there? That's just not sensible. The element of surprise is crucial.

Why would Imperio wait a couple of dozen turns to attack Constantinople? It's clearly in their best interests to get more cities ASAP, seeing as they have a mere seven. They've already moved their mega-stack away from Cape-Chichen (as verified by Lollipop), and they need Constantinople to link Jerusalem to their empire.

If we set a trap for Imperio at Constantinople, why should they fall for it? If they can see us bombarding the city (they've told us recently how large the garrison is, so they can see into the city) then they'll see we're not repsecting the agreement, and maybe they'll just march back round to the under-defended Cape Town?

Once we take Jerusalem we abandon it, march up to Jericho to heal whilst Imperio gets to work on taking Constantinople.

[sooooo]

Yes, how to take constantinople did cross my mind seeing as they'd see us bombarding it. I still like the plan of letting them take the city and hitting their stack afterwards.

[sooooo]

I have sent this email to Imperio:

Dear Imperio,

We have offered you our wines for your gold in-game.

Realms Beyond

I think we should send an email to imperio later this turn or maybe next turn fishing for information. Something like:

Dear Imperio,

To update you: We have sent troops into templar lands to capture Jerusalem. What are your plans? Will you wait for us to capture Jerusalem or will you attack Constantinople before?

Regards,

Team Realms Beyond

[Dreylin]

Sounds good.

[Swiss Pauli]

I wondering whether Imperio will go for Damascus first to neutralise the AP, and then go for Constantinople. In any event, we can legitimately leave our main stack in Jericho, and then strike as soon as Imperio takes Constantinople. Handy that we're first in the turn order, so we get to attack after the turn ticks over and Templar culture gets wiped.

[Sullla]

Another thing we want to send to Imperio (not on this current email exchange, probably the next one after we line up a resource trade) is a strong request that they Close Borders with PAL. We can give them some numbers and demonstrate how much losing that intercontinental trade route income will hurt PAL, who of course has the Great Lighthouse trade routes and quite a few harbors. Not only does this benefit us a lot by shutting off some of PAL's income, it also helps to foster mistrust between Imperio and PAL. If/When we backstab Imperio and they go running to PAL for help, PAL won't trust them one bit after seeing how they opportunistically swapped sides over and over again at the drop of a pin.

We also need to get Banana to drop their Open Borders with PAL too, but that's the subject for another thread...

[Zeviz]

Proposed email sounds good, but should we add Sulla's suggestion to it?

Talking so much about confronting PAL diverts their attention away from the possibility of us backstubbing them.

[Sullla]

Let's take it one step at a time. Get the resource trade in place, then start talking about "closer cooperation" against PAL.

[sooooo]

How about:

Dear Imperio,

We need to coordinate our attack. What turn can you capture Constantinople? We need to know because there is no point gifting Jerusalem before the troops at Constantinople are killed, otherwise they could recapture Jerusalem (we don't want to defend your city for you ) It is your responsibility to kill the troops at Constantinople, but don't worry your army will easily kill them. The sequence will be:

1. We capture Jerusalem.
2. You kill the troops at Constantinople and capture the city.
3. We immediately gift Jerusalem.
4. You move defenders into Jerusalem.

We just need you to calculate the date you can capture Constantinople and hence the date we hand over Jerusalem.

Cheers,

Realms Beyond

P.S: Thanks for the resource trade

HINT: step 3 will actually be replaced by "we kill your army"

This email is designed to encourage Imperio to attack Constantinople, not Damascus.

[Swiss Pauli]

I'd word it more firmly: 'we're going to take Jerusalem in 3 turns from now, and we will immediately gift Jerusalem to you as agreed. We will also immediately withdraw our troops to Jericho to heal, so we advise you to attack Constantinople first to stop Templars taking back an undefended Jerusalem'.