Banana: Diplomacy Thread #2

[sunrise089]

He should be willing to, since we gave him the current #1 secret, that we may attack Imperio.

His first attack has got to be overwhelmingly effective. Unless he has spies in PAL lands to ensure there is no backup army anywhere he has to kill the border city on a one-move and hope that stalls the PAL attack. As long as PAL has to march in the open towards Banana and Banana can control the road network they can play the defender and hang on, but if that border city doesn't fall then Banana has a long uphill climb to survive.

[mostly-harmless]

Just a first thought from looking at the Banana situation:
Pi-Ramesses, the border city, needs to be razed not kept.

Oh, yes. The capture of Angle is the key to defeating PAL. Clearly, there must be a secret to that city.

mh

[Kylearan]

Hi,

His first attack has got to be overwhelmingly effective. Unless he has spies in PAL lands to ensure there is no backup army anywhere he has to kill the border city on a one-move and hope that stalls the PAL attack. As long as PAL has to march in the open towards Banana and Banana can control the road network they can play the defender and hang on, but if that border city doesn't fall then Banana has a long uphill climb to survive.

I agree, and we should communicate at least this to him, plus offer more detailed help. Even if this will sound somewhat patronizing, too much will depend on the outcome of that war.

-Kylearan

[darrelljs]

surnise, is taking the fight to PAL a good move for banana? You seem to be in support of it which surprised me. Is I don't see how razing that one city will help short term or long term, they are just plain overmatched.

Darrell

[Swiss Pauli]

It would be easier to explain if I had a screenshot, but basically PAL culture bombed Pi-Ram, so if Banana can raze it then they force PAL to wade through their culture; otherwise PAL can be at the doorstep of any Banana city.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

surnise, is taking the fight to PAL a good move for banana? You seem to be in support of it which surprised me. Is I don't see how razing that one city will help short term or long term, they are just plain overmatched.

Darrell

I'm not Sunrise, but I don't see any other option if Banana wants to have at least a tiny chance of survival. They *will* be attacked by PAL, I think that much is certain, so if they wait until then, they won't be able to hurt PAL at all, only turtle up, defend, and get eliminated. If they do a pre-emptive attack however, they might be able to raze a city, get more control over the road network, and generally have the initiative - plus a psychological advantage. :-)

-Kylearan

[mostly-harmless]

My fear is, that Banana plans for an attack on T167/168 and PAL seems to be set on the same date. Donovans offensive stack might just be slaughtered.
Would be nice to have live coverage of that front.

mh

[Sullla]

Oh, yes. The capture of Angle is the key to defeating PAL. Clearly, there must be a secret to that city.

Well played, mh. Well played.

On topic, Banana has about six different cities spread out in a semi-circle around Pi-Ramesses. It's a strategic nightmare because PAL can strike anywhere they choose, while Banana has to guard at least four different places simultaneously. One of the most important rules of MP is to have only one city on the front lines; splitting your forces is asking for disaster. Needless to say, having to defend in four or more places simultaneously is simply an impossibility!

If Banana can burn down Pi-Ramesses, their cultural borders will expand and PAL will no longer have free run on 80% of the Banana core. It's really imperative that that city go, however if Banana fails in their initial strike, that will end the war (and possibly the game). This is why we really need to get Donovan into a chat with sunrise, so they can hammer out the tactical scenario!

[sooooo]

PAL took Eisenburg on T164. I presume they healed T165. If they don't have a medic III then they'll have to heal T166 too. It's quite a long way down from Eisenburg to Pi-Ramesses for 1-movers. However, they probably have a good number of curassiers down there anyway.

TBH, I think banana are screwed whatever they do. If they advance, their stack will probably just die. If they don't attack, their two northwestern cities are toast and they still have a big front to defend. Probably we can get PP, astro and chemistry from them until they disappear into the ether.

[sunrise089]

@Darrell - My assumption is there is a 99% chance PAL will attack Banana or Banana will cease to be an RB ally and instead Vassalize to PAL. In that case anything is better than doing nothing.

Our last intel from Banana told us PAL wasn't heavily guarding their border cities - probably relying on their NAP and letting them rush all of their units north. That's the right decision for PAL as long as they're confident in the NAP, but they will certainly defend those cities before the point they believe Banana will attack, so it's vital that Banana hits first.

Banana can actually hit two PAL cities on a one-move. Doing so will significantly push back PAL culture. But more importantly it will deny PAL one of the best tactical arrangements I've ever seen. PAL's front is so well situated, that in a ladder MP game (admittedly with city-elimination rules on) I would concede the game if I was Banana. But that's because in ladder civ PAL would never leave their border city empty If PAL keeps that city, they can literally split something like 5 Banana cities with troops. If that happens Banana has about 0% chance of not getting more or less crushed.

EDIT: I go to a meeting while typing my response and all my lovely points get taken. Darn ninjas!

EDIT2: @Sooooo - Well I agree Banana looses their stack if they attack. But if they loose their stack burning 2 PAL cities that's a lot better than loosing it defending 5 Banana cities that will still burn. The point is Banana has to go hard-core on military, slaving and drafting units. Making PAL take even 3-4 more turns to attack do to roads being up, and ensuring that Banana can hit PAL units with at least some cats, is about all we can hope for at this point.

[shadyforce]

You could ferry a bunch of units over to PAL's northern cities and try to raze a few of them, or at least go on a razing spree. Maybe it will be enough of a distraction to give banana a fighting chance. That's if you think Banana has no chance to win and if you think Banana's defeat means PAL's victory whether you destroy Imperio or not.

[Sullla]

TBH, I think banana are screwed whatever they do. If they advance, their stack will probably just die. If they don't attack, their two northwestern cities are toast and they still have a big front to defend. Probably we can get PP, astro and chemistry from them until they disappear into the ether.

Oh, Banana is most certainly doomed, no question about that. The "original Banana" was one of the most incompetent teams I've ever seen. (They were made up of players from the first Apolyton Demogame, in which Banana was eliminated before the AD years even began! Krill can tell you about that game.) We just need to get them to hold out as long as humanly possible, put up a defense like the Rabbits did. Imagine if PAL had conquered the north 50 turns ago - this game would be completely over!

The Demogame is essentially a race to see who can take over their continent first, PAL or RB. If we can get into a lategame Mano y Mano, we'd at least have a decent shot...

[sunrise089]

Ok guys, here is the tactical situation.

Here is what Banana can do with no warning:

Spoiler:

Here is what PAL can do if Banana lets them keep control of their border city:

Spoiler:

The 1, 2a, 2b paths involve moving in a stack of defensive units, cats, and 2-movers. You move everything to "1" where you are pretty safe. Then you split the 2-movers onto the "B" tiles. If Banana moves out of their cities to hit the 2-movers then you capture the cities for cheap. If they don't then you capture the other city.

Anyways, this is fast, high casualty, MP style play. It might not even be necessary considering how large PAL is...they can just build one giant stack and march from city to city. But if PAL wants to capture 4+ Banana cities in 3 turns, this is how they can do it.

[regoarrarr]

Okay so how do we get this info to Banana, ASAP

[sooooo]

Sunrise, are you available to chat to Donovan tonight? He was keen for that when I spoke to him yesterday. Probably you should email him a time.