Team Info and Contacts - Templars

[mostly-harmless]

They should have 152g. I would still try to get more cash out of them.
The beaker difference is 286. So the initially proposed 250g should be the minimum.
We can try for 150g now and 10gpt for 10 turns.

We should offer that in-game and write a short eMail as proposed.

mh

[Sullla]

If we ask for gold in the deal, I don't think the Templars will ever accept it. Think about it: would our team fork out 150-250g to another team to even out a tech deal? I think we would balk at that.

More importantly, is this really the impression we want to convey? Just asking for a tech deal (and bartering pretty roughly in the process) and nothing else? I know some people are still angry with Templars, but we have to put those feelings aside. Diplomacy is about Realpolitik and striking hard bargains; there's really no place for hurt feelings. I continue to be concerned that we aren't doing enough diplomatically to prevent an Imperio/Templars combination from forming against us. Templars have a pretty decent army themselves now, and if they both attack us at the same time, we WILL lose the game. I will happily turn every cheek in my body to prevent that from happening!

So please, can we try to work a little harder to iron out some kind of NAP with Templars? Our bargaining position is NOT as strong as some of you seem to think it is in this thread. If we try to take on the world, we're going to lose, and lose badly.

[mostly-harmless]

I am a bit confused here.
To me it is clear that a meaningful NAP with Templars is not going to happen. They turned down our proposal for an NAP until T134.

And we constantly keep on saying that we will lose if both come for us. So why are we hinging the whole game on an NAP with Templars, that will not happen?
Requests for barracks and units in the south are repeatedly turned down. I find that a bit dangerous to be honest.

Honorable Knights Templar,

Are you interested in obtaining our knowledge of Engineering (1430 beakers) for Drama (429 beakers), Theology (715 beakers), and a 20 turn NAP?

Sincerely,
Zeviz, interim ambassador for Team RB

I can only advise against giving them Engineering (improved road movement) in a deal that does not include some peace guarantee for a period of time (ie. gpt or NAP).
I hope noone thinks that a pure Engineering vs. Drama/Theo deal, that is in favour for Templars will have them give up any plans they have for dogpiling up on us. They will say "Thank you very much" And we see their stack next to Pink Dot anyway.

mh

[sooooo]

I am against offering the deal. At the moment we can only use one of those techs (drama). I'd rather spend 3 turns researching drama than give engineering to Templars.

EDIT: Actually, I'd be OK for the deal only if it is accompanied by a NAP.

[mostly-harmless]

. I also didn't see Drama in their available techs (maybe I was looking at the wrong team)?

You were not looking at the wrong team. Templars don't even have Drama! They are researching something since T121. Surely not Drama. Probably Divine Right for yet another Religion.

I think we should go Drama ourselves. It is only 2 turns for us. Theology was only an option anyway for Bloodbath.

mh

[sunrise089]

Perhaps....

Honorable Knights Templar,

Are you interested in obtaining our knowledge of Engineering (1430 beakers) for Drama (429 beakers), Theology (715 beakers), and a 20 turn NAP?

Although we had some difficulties communicating recently, Team RB still values our current and future friendship with the Templars. And of course the importance of tech trading should be clear by this point to every team. Unfortunately our most recent attempt towards a mutually beneficial trade ended in frustration, but RB would like to offer the above proposal as an alternative.

Although we strive for a NAP with the Templars in any circumstances, the military value of the Engineering tech makes it particularity important. In fact, such a trade could greatly benefit both of our civilizations. Obviously RB benefits from avoiding the same sort of costly military buildup we've been forced to undertake in the north to deter Imperio's aggressive posturing, but we feel Templars benefit just as much, since after all peace is in all of our best interest.

Furthermore, as a symbol of our commitment to diplomacy, we are prepared to treat the mutually-beneficial NAP as a gift to RB for beaker purposes, and offer this otherwise uneven trade.

We hope you will recognize the merit in this offer, but we look forward to any Templar thoughts on how to refine it if you feel changes are necessary.

Once this deal is accepted, we hope we can embark on a new chapter in close relations, where both of our civs can be committed to open dialog including longer-term discussion of mutually beneficial tech paths and resource trades.

If possible, please acknowledge receipt of this message and kindly inform us of your anticipated time of reply.

Sincerely,
Zeviz, interim ambassador for Team RB

[Dreylin]

I like sunrise's draft, but I would like to tie the NAP to completion of the trade.

Last time we had a NAP accepted by Templars they didn't tell us of their acceptance until 5t into the deal. This time we need to be sure that they don't assume it's 20t from receipt of our offer, but 20t from full completion of the trade - i.e. they have given us Drama.

I would suggest something along the lines of:

Are you interested in obtaining our knowledge of Engineering (1430 beakers) for Drama (429 beakers), Theology (715 beakers), and a NAP (20 turns commencing upon completion of the trade)?

[Dreylin]

Actually, on further reflection we should have it commence immediately and expire 20t after completion to avoid any non-completion shenangins. So:

Are you interested in obtaining our knowledge of Engineering (1430 beakers) for Drama (429 beakers), Theology (715 beakers), and a NAP? (The NAP to begin upon acceptance and expire 20 turns after completion of the trade)

[mostly-harmless]

Yes, I would also tie it to Drama being completed next turn by Templars. We don't want to wait more than 2 turns, do we?

mh

[sooooo]

I like Sunrise's email with Dreylin's modification. The only think I would add is a request for their ETA on Drama.

[sunrise089]

Edits made:

Honorable Knights Templar,

Are you interested in obtaining our knowledge of Engineering (1430 beakers) for Drama (429 beakers), Theology (715 beakers), and a 20 turn NAP? (The NAP to begin upon acceptance and expire 20 turns after completion of the trade)

Although we had some difficulties communicating recently, Team RB still values our current and future friendship with the Templars. And of course the importance of tech trading should be clear by this point to every team. Unfortunately our most recent attempt towards a mutually beneficial trade ended in frustration, but RB would like to offer the above proposal as an alternative.

Although we strive for a NAP with the Templars in any circumstances, the military value of the Engineering tech makes it particularity important. In fact, such a trade could greatly benefit both of our civilizations. Obviously RB benefits from avoiding the same sort of costly military buildup we've been forced to undertake in the north to deter Imperio's aggressive posturing, but we feel Templars benefit just as much, since after all peace is in all of our best interest.

Furthermore, as a symbol of our commitment to diplomacy, we are prepared to treat the mutually-beneficial NAP as a gift to RB for beaker purposes, and offer this otherwise uneven trade.

We hope you will recognize the merit in this offer, but we look forward to any Templar thoughts on how to refine it if you feel changes are necessary.

Once this deal is accepted, we hope we can embark on a new chapter in close relations, where both of our civs can be committed to open dialog including longer-term discussion of mutually beneficial tech paths and resource trades.

If possible, please acknowledge receipt of this message and kindly inform us of your anticipated time of reply. If you choose to accept please also kindly provide us with your ETA on Drama - we're committed to the above trade, but it makes the most sense if Templars will have Drama in the very near future.

Sincerely,
Zeviz, interim ambassador for Team RB

[Zeviz]

I'd drop the line about treating NAP as a gift, but it looks good otherwise, with Dreylin's modification.

[sooooo]

Yes, I agree.

Maybe wait for a few hours for any last-minute objections and then email it, along with a pm to hercules.

[sunrise089]

I'd drop the line about treating NAP as a gift, but it looks good otherwise, with Dreylin's modification.

I like that line. The reality is Templars are being ridiculous, and if diplomacy really did matter much in this game (as you know, I don't think it does) they should be going out of their way to push for a NAP. A NAP clearly benefits both of us, and the fact that we're being sensible and trying to stop pointless wars doesn't mean Templars are entitled to one-sided trades.

[Zeviz]

I am just worried about coming across as too desperate for a NAP. But if nobody else is worried about that, the message is fine as it is.