Team Info and Contacts - Templars

[Swiss Pauli]

Templars have replied:

Yes Sir Aidun does speak for the Templars but as yet he hasn't posted
your offer on our boards. And yes we are interested in negotiating a
peace deal.

[sunrise089]

Excellent - a two sentence email that is more explicit than the dissertation sent over via Aidun.

[sooooo]

Shall we just forward them the pm to aidun? Technically the "lopsided" deal we offered cannot be made because they picked up engineering from Imperio. But I'm fine leaving it in as it at least suggested that we were willing to make a (trojan, ssshhhh) gift.

[Sullla]

I think that's the best thing to do. We can even pretend that we don't know they picked up Engineering from Imperio (which only just happened, and we might legitimately have missed). It makes us look better, just as sooooo said.

Excellent - a two sentence email that is more explicit than the dissertation sent over via Aidun.

sunrise, I think that the annoyance stack you have outside Jericho is paying off. Panic Templar response ahoy!

[Swiss Pauli]

Shall we just forward them the pm to aidun? Technically the "lopsided" deal we offered cannot be made because they picked up engineering from Imperio. But I'm fine leaving it in as it at least suggested that we were willing to make a (trojan, ssshhhh) gift.

I would agree with this.

I'd also like to reply to Aidun's very long PM (and I will draft something today), but we should get our actual offer out to Team Templars ASAP.

[sooooo]

I forwarded the pm.

[ruff_hi]

Aidun is back ...

Hi Ruff,

My apologies for not responding any sooner. I wanted to send you a reply last sunday, but Apolyton didn't allow me and then my study and work-related things interfered. Once more, a letter in two parts.

You wrote that you feel that I am playing a game with you to see what offer you can make to my team. I must admit that I am indeed playing a game with you, although not the game you seem to suspect me of. The game I'm trying to play is a diplomacy sub-game of this demogame our teams participate in. It has its own rules and mechanics which have no relationship to the rules of the demogame itself. The rules of the diplomacy sub-game are, however, founded on interests that rise from actions and situations in the demogame itself. I'll try to explain here.

When I wrote my previous letters I was concerned that you would misunderstand, but it is difficult to anticipate on that. However, understand this very well: this diplomacy sub-game I cannot play on my own, I need you to play it with me. As they say: it takes two to tango. That implies that in a way I am dependent on you: as high as my demands may be, they can be only so high as what you are prepared to pay. I cannot overcharge you for that would make you slam the door in my face and we would both be worse off than if we kept talking. That is why I share this with you - so that you do not completely mistrust me and at least keep the door a little bit opened so that we may talk. In that respect I should thank you that you leave me room to explain despite your or your team's opposition.

In my past two letters I have tried to explain that our different positions in the game created different benefits and costs, different advantages and disadvantages and different ambitions. These different benefits, advantages and ambitions lead our respective teams to different rational strategies.

Would I have been on your team, I would be doing everything I can to win the demogame. The war with the Templars and Imperio would be an obstacle to the fulfilment of that ambition and so I would want it to be solved. To that end I would, paradoxically, be dependent on those other teams. Even though my team would be stronger than those other two teams independently or even stronger than their accumulated power, I would still be dependent.

The Templars and on the other hand are in no position to have a shot at winning the game and have accordingly different ambitions. Compared to RB, the Templars are relatively weak, however, because RB is dependent on both the Templars and Imperio, paradoxically, the Templars are in a strong negotiating position. Even though they are relatively weak, they can make high demands from your team.

The problem with that is that to make such a demand would likely not go down well with your team. You say that you guys are willing to consider every proposal, but I doubt you would be happy to see the suggestions I have seen and which I will keep for myself now. Suppose, however, purely hypothetically, that the Templars would ask you to gift a city or for instance the exclusive control over a resource, to mention two random very expensive potential demands. If I were on your team, those are not the kind of demands I would like to see, especially not from a relatively weak team like the Templars with which 'my team' would be at war! It is afterall a kind of blackmail.

So we have this diplomacy sub-game in which we can arrange a mutually much more profitable outcome than the current war presents for both teams, but the costs one of us has to make to get there are so high, that this keeps us both from achieving that outcome - some kind of a Prisoners' Dilemma.

One possible solution would be that the Templars simply do not make their demand, however, that ignores the Templar ambition and interests. As I said, the Templars need to be convinced to adopt a different strategy and need incentives for that, which are presently absent.

My hope was to find a different way out: to let you guys make the offer without the Templars making a demand. However for that to work, you guys would need to know what the Templars would want. For that purpose I explained the Templars' security dilemma, to make you understand what the Templars would want. I hoped that you would put yourself in the Templar position and imagine what you would ask from your team if you were the Templars. Then, being aware of this hypothetical Templar demand, you could determine to which extent your team would be prepared to realise that.

As such, I am not playing a game as would I be a customer walking through a farmer's market to see which farmer would offer the lowest price for his foodstuffs. This is a genuine attempt to reach a deal that is in the future profitable to both your team and mine.

I would also like to talk with you about how we can find a solution to your team's concern about Imperio's power and how this led your team into an armsrace in an attempt to deter Imperio. The reason is that I know from the Templars that they won't agree to any solution, unless Imperio is onboard, because they understandably don't want to betray their ally.

Perhaps, as hint, I could suggest that to use the Templars as buffer between your team and Imperio, would make both teams dependent on the Templars in a way, while the Templars would be dependent on both teams for military protection and technological innovation. I have an idea of how to realize that, but I don't want to make demands.

Regarding a solution for the security delemma you have with Imperio, I am open for all ideas.

Meanwhile, I'll talk to Imperio, to exchange some ideas and see with what they would be willing to agree.

Best,

Aidun

Oh man, please say what you mean. I had a friend who was a psychologist and when his kids misbehaved, he would sit them down and talk to them about what they did wrong. It was so bad, that one of his kids (an 8 yr old) said "Dad - don't talk to me about this. Just smack me". I feel like just asking Aidun to talk plainly, ask what he wants and I promise not to laugh (too hard) or take offense.

Is the team happy with me talking this (sort of) off line and just talking to Aidun until I have something concrete to share? I will run it through our team RB gmail account so that people can follow (and we avoid this horrible poly-lag).

[sunrise089]

Since Aidum likes games how about we agree to pairs of messages with up to 100 combined words, where each word he types subtracts from that total. So if he sends a 50 word message we can send 50 back. If he wants 99 words we can only send back 1...

My thoughts:

1) We aren't unwilling to include an "exclusive control over a resource" agreement. I'm happy to give them horses in exchange for elephants, or iron in exchange for copper.

2) They've got to stop talking about security problems when they're the ones who declared war on us. I absolutely refuse to even consider that as an argument.

3) He doesn't mind typing all this text, so "I have an idea of how to realize that, but I don't want to make demands" is kinda' crazy. Can we tell him to pretend we can't understand subtlety or hints or subtext at RB? Maybe tie that to my 100-total-words idea above?

[Swiss Pauli]

Is the team happy with me talking this (sort of) off line and just talking to Aidun until I have something concrete to share? I will run it through our team RB gmail account so that people can follow (and we avoid this horrible poly-lag).

I dunno about taking this offline. It has a certain appeal as it would help to reduce the heavy text for the team to analyse, but on the other hand, he's not just shooting the breeze: he's talking about major strategic dilemmas, so it would be hard not to give away our ideas about the game.

[mostly-harmless]

I am happy for Ruff to continue this charade, but please post the messages here as well.

As for the message: Ahem, what was it he is saying? Nothing, right?
They want a city for peace and they want to accommodate Imperio in any peace deal as well, which means giving up Cape Town. What a joke. Crippling us down to the size of Imperio, so Templars can sit snug in the middle of two equally sized civs.

mh

[Zeviz]

I never thought I'd say this, but there is only one possible answer to Aidun's message: "tl, dr"

PS On a more serious note, this might be good time to remind Templars about reality:
1. They were the ones who attacked us.
2. Despite joined attack by them and Imperio and a trade embargo by PAL, we are the ones besieging their city.
3. In light of the two facts above, what are they willing to pay for peace?

[Swiss Pauli]

I never thought I'd say this, but there is only one possible answer to Aidun's message: "tl, dr"

PS On a more serious note, this might be good time to remind Templars about reality:
1. They were the ones who attacked us.
2. Despite joined attack by them and Imperio and a trade embargo by PAL, we are the ones besieging their city.
3. In light of the two facts above, what are they willing to pay for peace?

If Aidun's opinion carries any weight with Templars they won't make peace, as he recognises the reality that making peace with us will allow us to go after Imperio with our flank secured, and then to come after Templars when the time is right for us.

Aidun is looking for a comprehensive settlement ('they won't agree to any solution, unless Imperio is onboard, because they understandably don't want to betray their ally'), and it's hard to see how a white peace would change the strategic outlook in anyone's favour except our own, but I think it would be worth suggesting, if only to see the reaction from Imperio and Templars.

[sooooo]

Riiiight, now Templars want Cape Town. The very city they said we could settle in our border agreement!

Hercules did say he is interested in a peace settlement and I am interested in what their reply will be to the proposal I forwarded to their main inbox.

Perhaps we should say:

Sir Aidun,

You didn't spell it out exactly, but we think we have worked out what templars are after: Cape Town. We will not give this or any other city up to either you or Imperio. This is a firm statement, so please get the idea out of your minds. Other concessions are on the table, such as resources, cooperation agreements and techs, but you cannot have any of our cities out of principle. While your team was attempting to build wonders and founding religions, we were building settlers and workers. One member of our team has likened you to Italy arriving in the new world in the 19th century and demanding an equal share of the continent. We will listen to any offers (honestly we will, just state them no matter how silly you think they are) as long as they do not involve giving cities away. If there are no circumstances in which you will agree peace without gaining a city, then our negotiations may be at an end.

[MyOtherCar]

I like sooooo's message. With a hint of sunrise's "Can we tell him to pretend we can't understand subtlety or hints or subtext at RB? "

[ruff_hi]

I like what sooooo has said but would add ...

"Remember, you started this silly war."