Team Info and Contacts - Imperio

[mostly-harmless]

Jerusalem would be down to size 6 when we capture it and would come with a forge, a lighthouse and a barracks at at maximum. (I am not sure how that improvement things works. I think all cultural buildings get autorazed(?), so the Terrace/Granary gets razed.)
And it would come with two religions (holy city) obviously.

Are we prepared to give that up? I think no.
mh

[sooooo]

OK, they say that if they let us have Jerusalem then PAL will attack them. Why do we need to explain our deal to PAL? It is none of their business. I do sympathise that they are nervous of sharing a border with PAL.

Dear Imperio,

We want to agree to peace but think that razing Jerusalem is very wasteful. It is a large city, well defended and we want to keep it. There is no need to explain our agreement to PAL - it is none of their business. If we capture Jerusalem then I doubt they will attack you. Just say that we got there first! Also PAL are busy with Rabbits and then Banana.

We will definitely help you if PAL attack you. But I doubt it will happen for a long time. You are their only tech-trading partner. Their threats to attack you if you let us capture Jerusalem are not nice - that is blackmail and we will help you.

We promise we will stay in Islam. That way the holy city of Jerusalem will give off no culture and will not pressure Constantinople.

Also, if we agree to fight Templars together then we need a peace deal. We cannot cooperate while at war.

RB

[regoarrarr]

Since they seem to be more concerned with raw city count than useful cities, can we explicitly point out cities that they can settle?

[mostly-harmless]

@ soooo: Sounds good. But it is not very specific with respect to getting anything agreed on this turn.
@ regoarrarr: No, I would not do that now. At the moment we are just talking. Nothing has been achieved. "The Tile" flip next turn. Then they might think they will get lucky with Cape Town. etc. Once we have a deal we can surely help them.

mh

[sooooo]

OK, I'll add a "please let us know before our turn".

[dsplaisted]

Sooooo's draft looks pretty good.

How long are we going to stay in Islam? Are we saying we will *never* revolt to free religion?

Also, I might add something along the lines of: "We understand that it can be difficult to communicate in a different language and we appreciate the effort that you have taken to do so. As always, feel free to respond to our emails in Spanish if it is easier."

[T-hawk]

(I am not sure how that improvement things works. I think all cultural buildings get autorazed(?), so the Terrace/Granary gets razed.)

Building survival percentage chance is defined for each building in the XML. It varies, some buildings like courthouses are higher. Most cultural buildings have 0% chance but that is not universally true. Academy is a notable exception. I don't have the XML available right now and this parameter isn't in the reference charts. I can check later for Terrace, but I'd be surprised if Firaxis thought to change the UB's survival chance. I also don't know if the UB gets downgraded to the standard building before or after the survival check.

Back to the discussion - why in the world is Imperio so fanatical about the religions at Jerusalem? Is this some kind of roleplaying, or do they not understand that holy cities really don't mean anything without the shrine, or are they trying to keep/deny religions towards a cultural victory?

If us razing Jerusalem will get Imperio to sign peace, I say to take the offer. Whatever marginal difference there might be regarding keeping/razing/moving/resettling will completely pale to insignificance against having Imperio on our side. We keep making the error of playing well in Civ terms but getting into trouble in demogame terms. Let's finally flip that around.

Keeping Jerusalem will not win the game. Allying with Imperio will.

[Dreylin]

Wow, you go to sleep for a few hours and two pages of posts go by!

I suspect PAL are concerned about shrine income from Jerusalem, which would greatly aid our economy. BTW, where is the Apo palace located?

I like the latest message, though I doubt Imperio will go for it. They (and Templars) seem obsessed by "fair division" of lands and cities, which is really butting with our approach of grab what you can defend.

In the interests of RB winning the game, we may need to agree to the demand about raising & replacing Jerusalem if it gets them to agree to a long-term NAP and alliance against PAL. We shouldn't be blinded by the shiney city and lose sight of the fact that if we can assemble an alliance with Imperio and Banana we can deal with Pal and then take the game for ourselves.

[mostly-harmless]

I am in another chat with Imperio, right now. Before, I talked to Kelben. Now I am talking to Naldorinho.

mh

[sooooo]

Here is an alternate email for if the raze-and-replace option is preferred:

Dear Imperio,

We have talked about your offer. Razing and replacing Jerusalem would be a big waste, but we reluctantly agree so that we can work together. We will raze and resettle Jerusalem and you will have Constantinople, Damascus and Acre.

However, we must insist on a peace treaty. We cannot cooperate while we are at war. We have backed down over Jerusalem, now you must compromise by signing a peace deal and a NAP.

By the way, there is no need to discuss our deal with PAL. It is none of their business and if they are threatening to attack you if we capture Jerusalem then that is not nice. That is blackmail and we will help you.

We can discuss resource trades, tech trades and a defensive pact against PAL later. But for now we need an answer to the peace deal and the agreement to divide Templar lands.

Please give us an answer before our turn.

Thanks,

RB

[Swiss Pauli]

Maybe PAL is worried about the AP messing with their plans for world domination? I've no idea whether destroying the holy city breaks the AP, but I'd guess it does. The AP itself is in Damascus.

[darrelljs]

They won't make peace until we have an agreement, because it takes away their leverage. We'd have 10 turns to finish off Templars.

This negotiation is probably going nowhere. They want to come out of this with a shot to win the game. The only way they can do that is to get major concessions from us, which they won't. Maybe we can give them a game long NAP, allowing them a shot at culture victory? I feel confident with T-Hawk that we'll be able to outrace them.

Its funny, not that long ago it looked like us against the world (and Banana). Its possible that just a few turns later its the world against PAL.

Darrell

[regoarrarr]

I'd be okay with giving Imperio a game long NAP

[mostly-harmless]

I'd be okay with giving Imperio a game long NAP

I am not.


Anyway, here my second chat with Imperio today.
They want to sit back and relax, while we do all the work.
read from bottom to top.



I also think this is getting nowhere.
We cannot agree to defeat Templars for them and then hand over the complete eastern half of the continent to them. I think they underestimate our military power.
The best way forward would be to capture Jerusalem quickly and then re-negotiate.

I think their grasp of the diplo situation is a bit naive.
mh

[sunrise089]

Okay, another American with quick thoughts:

1) Lets make sure we want to make any sort of deal. If we smash the remaining Templar army surely we can out-produce Templars enough to take the remaining cities, right? If Imperio jumps on the bandwagon then at least we won't have to agree to silly city-division rules. The current offer is going to let Imperio capture more cities than us, and really do it on the cheap.

2) If we do make a deal, I don't care if we raze Jerusalem. Obviously Imperio is scared of non-existent culture and PAL is scared of a cultural victory (do they not know we already have many religions?), but re-settling isn't too painful.

3) Constantinople would sure be nice to have from a defensive point of view. I'd way rather let Imperio have the un-settled spot on the coast east of Jerusalem. If we get that spot, don't expect to be able to hold it without a huge spy network.

4) Imperio lusts after cities. Can we sweeten the pot by offering to gift them settlers? We could agree to take Constantinople and Jerusalem, and then not settle any further east. Plus we'll gift Imperio 3 settlers. We'd have 15 cities and Imperio would have 12, but at a much lower cost.

5) How the heck can we get Imperio to realize having troops pass through their land is a non-issue? As long as they stay out of a war their land doesn't get hurt. And if they're in a war then all of our combined forces will be working to defend them and control the channel.