Team Info and Contacts - Imperio

[mostly-harmless]

1.) I agree, we can keep the stand off at the Cape (Imperio is going for infrastructure, for god's sake) and finish off Templars in 10-15turns.
2.) Ok, as long as we resettle in place.
3.) They will never agree to allowing us Constantinople.
4.) see above.
5.) This is something I also don't understand. Are they afraid, we will wear down their roads, or what?

mh

[darrelljs]

Yeah, but again (and this time they say it explicitly), they want to come out with a chance to win. They can't earn it in game, so they want to earn it meta game. I can't blame them, it is the correct tact to take.

The question is do we feel we should bend over backwards for this alliance, in the hopes they keep it and don't go running to PAL when they realized they still can't win? Given how they turned on the Templars, I vote no. Let's just keep taking cities and see how things develop. The tenor changed quite a bit with operation Joshua, after all .

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

Again, I am with Dreylin here. They are prepared to dishonor their agreements with Templars and PAL to get a chance to improve their situation. We have not exactly a record of trusting each other.
I say we keep on going, Jerusalem, Constantinople. And see what they will do. Allying with PAL will just mean, they are getting killed next.

mh

[sunrise089]

How about

Imperio,

We are very glad to be talking again. We are sure we can make an agreement and both have a chance to win the game. But it is not fair for RB to fight all of the Templar units and get fewer cities and worse land.

Right now we can agree that if Imperio declares war on Templars Imperio can have Acre and Damaskus. RB will take Jerusalem and Constantinople. This is an even division of cities from the time Imperio would be at war with Templars.

If you agree to this we will raze Jerusalem and put another city on the same spot. We will also gift you drama. Of course we also need a NAP.

If you don't like this deal we can keep talking. However we are going to work towards taking Templar cities as fast as possible.

-RB

Really this whole discussion is silly. Imperio should just make peace and sign a NAP with us. They have a better army in the Templar theater than we do. We could just race to take cities and then make a long-term deal after the war.

[mostly-harmless]

I like that message.

mh

[darrelljs]

Well, if we are going to offer to raze Jeruslaem (why again?), let's at least first offer to keep the city and split the shrine income. We also should ask them to cancel all deals with PAL...you can't serve two masters after all .

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

What shrine income?

Lets not drop the word "master" with them. I think they can get into an alliance as equals.

mh

[dsplaisted]

Also how about offering them a couple of settlers in exchange for not razing and resettling Jerusalem?

[Sullla]

Wow, I knew something was up when there were 3 pages of responses in this thread! Before anything else, I'd like to say thanks to mostly_harmless for chatting up Imperio and posting the results of the conversation here. That was a lot of work, especially given Imperio's rather bizarre views. (They seem to think that their land stinks, because they are "in the middle." I'd say that having the game's best collection of resources and unbelivably fertile territory more than makes up for it!)

On the issues floating around, I'd say we should be willing to consider razing and replacing Jerusalem - it's not the greatest spot in the world anyway - but nothing further. I also believe we should tell them that any agreement with Imperio is void until they actually sign peace with us and declare war on Templars. We are not going to do their dirty work for them; if we capture Constantinople while they are still sitting on the sidelines, it's our city. I'm fine with taking a hard line as sunrise mentions in the post above. Definitely worth it to raze and replace Jerusalem if we can grab Constantinople as part of the exchange. I think Imperio needs us on their side a lot more than we need them at the moment.

We could also make some nebulous promise to help them get more cities on the Terra continent to even things out, if it makes them feel better. (I think we all agree it's only a matter of time until we turn on Imperio in a post-Templar world. They clearly will turn on their agreements the minute they cease to be useful to them.)

[sooooo]

Offering a deal in which we get Constantinople is just silly - they have made it plainly obvious that that's not ok. Constantinople is a pain for them to defend anyway - we can swamp it with culture from Jericho and Jerusalem.

I think we send one of the two emails I drafted above, either saying we'll keep Jerusalem or saying we'll raze and replace it. Suggesting we keep Constantinople is not productive. It's right on their border and would be hard to defend.

[Swiss Pauli]

Calling our Spanish speakers! Now that we have some kind of positive communication with Imperio, would one of be willing to step forward and have a chat in-game with Imperio?

It would be less of a chat, and more about letting them express themselves in Spanish, and offer the odd 'si', 'no', or 'no saber'. We're losing quite a lot in translation here, and it's hard to tell if their ideas are all nuts, or whether they're only nuts when they try to express them in English.

Any volunteers?

[sooooo]

I'm pretty sure peace with Imperio is worth it. I think we'd get our trade routes back with Banana and Rabbits. We still had them despite closed borders with Imperio, so I think we'll get them with closed borders with PAL.

A simpler email:

Dear Imperio,

We have discussed and agree to raze and resettle Jerusalem in return for you signing peace with us this turn and agreeing a NAP. You must declare on Templars by the end of T153.

There is no need to mention to PAL any of our discussions.

Team RB.

[Dreylin]

I am fine with the simple approach.

[sunrise089]

Offering a deal in which we get Constantinople is just silly - they have made it plainly obvious that that's not ok. Constantinople is a pain for them to defend anyway - we can swamp it with culture from Jericho and Jerusalem.

I think we send one of the two emails I drafted above, either saying we'll keep Jerusalem or saying we'll raze and replace it. Suggesting we keep Constantinople is not productive. It's right on their border and would be hard to defend.

I disagree on both points.

First, I feel Constantinople is more valuable than Imperio entering the war. Who cares if Templars remain alive if RB has captured the two additional cities we want. Sure Imperio's entry frees up our stack, but I think that's counterbalanced by the increase in Imperio's strength courtesy of two new cities.

Second, I'd much rather defend a single city close to enemy borders than a pair of cities. Not even close. Civ is all about concentration of forces....as long as we hold a single tile around Constantinople we're fine. If Imperio holds Constantinople they force us to split our units between Jericho and Jerusalem.

[dsplaisted]

I speak decent Spanish, and I'd be willing to chat with Imperio. I would prefer to do it outside of game (MSN Messenger, Skype, IRC, or whatever), that way it's easier to get a transcript and I don't have to worry about accidentally cancelling deals or moving units.

I propose the following message, which is one of soooo's messages with some modifications.

Dear Imperio,

We want to agree to peace but think that razing Jerusalem is very wasteful. It is a large city, well defended and we want to keep it. There is no need to explain our agreement to PAL - it is none of their business. If we capture Jerusalem then I doubt they will attack you. Just say that we got there first! Also PAL are busy with Rabbits and then Banana.

We will definitely help you if PAL attack you. But I doubt it will happen for a long time. You are their only tech-trading partner. Their threats to attack you if you let us capture Jerusalem are not nice - that is blackmail and we will help you.

We are in Islam, so the holy city of Jerusalem will give off no culture and will not pressure Constantinople.

Also, if we agree to fight Templars together then we need a peace deal. We cannot cooperate while at war.

We are happy that you are talking to us but we think our communication suffers because of the language difference. One of our team members speaks some Spanish and we think it would be helpful for you to have a live chat with him in Spanish to help us understand your concerns better. If you agree, let us know what times would be good for you and whether you would like to use MSN Messenger, Skype, IRC, or something else.

RB