Correspondance Thread - PAL

[Lancer]

Geo, we absolutely must have archery imo. We are about to declare 'war' to pass through PALs lands. What's to stop him from passing through ours? Do you think Fluffy and Daisy are going to impress? I would also switch to archery at this time but at the >>very least<< l would go for it after sailing. If we start down the alphabet road without archery..

That might not be good. Even the barbs can eat our lunch now. Soon the barbs will have axmen and our warriors will not impress them either.

IMO anyway.

My reply is done. I gotta go soon so you guys correct it as needs be. Geo, you're the man. Don't let anything get in that we'll regret later.

I want him to suggest that he takes a different path than alphabet rather than have tech duplication. That part of our reply will hopefully remain as is or close to it, but your call.

We must remember that he has given much and avoided a war, now we must show some gratitude.

[Lancer]

My schedule for the day suddenly and delightfully just opened up. I'll be around.

[FeMme]

What happens if once we pass through their capital the way is still blocked by more of their cities?? Will we remain in a state of war until we have come through the other side of their civilisation?? Also, that will leave our scout stranded until we can pick him up by boat at a later time.

With regards to Lancer's latest PAL message (see post #134) I like most of it. However, ! am not comfortable promising to give them Alphabet because that enables them to trade with everybody else. They will obviously not be able to trade Alphabet to anyone else but they can trade any tech they themselves have researched. I would like to know what techs they are willing to give us before we start offering them key future ones that are yet to be researched.

[FeMme]

Originally posted by Zoid
I think we need to make contact with whoever's on the other side asap. We don't want to bolster PAL's points too much... So trading Masonry with vague promises of future trades and then run like hell to the other side seems like a good idea

[Lancer]

My thoughts on providing the alphabet in a future trade is that they would be the ones to take the other path. As it is they suggested we take the other path and since they are allowing us passage it would make sense that we do. However as someone said earlier in this thread, we don't want that path because it doesn't lead to alph. So, if we promise to trade it to them when the time comes while at the same time stating our willingness to accept tech duplication (a bad idea) maybe they will suggest that they take the other path to avoid the tech duplication that niether of us really want. In fact my whole message to them is an attempt to accomplish this and the promise of alph is key to it. Take that out and we gut the message. We really don't want them to change their minds on letting our scout through. Without that, and without cooperation, alph is a very, very long way off, and war becomes likely just to see what lies beyond, what they offer us for free!

What they gave us was big, lets give something back, the promise of alph, in the hope they will switch their research path to the one they suggested for us. We can always make the alph trade slanted to us...they will be drooling as we would be. Essentially this message is geared to get them to make a bad call, to not go to alph. It's a bad call for the same reasons we don't want that path.

Consider too Femme, what they are giving is concrete, the right of our guy to pass. What we are giving is promises (which I fully intend to honor) and that can be hard to swallow. We are promising an alph trade which puts us down a better tech path and an alliance, both benefit both of us. They gave something which just benefits us.

If you don't want to promise alph then we should take the tech path they suggested to eliminate duplication. Of course that means we have to hope they'll trade us alph.

But whatever, if the majority wants a message without the alph promise, I'll work one up.

Regarding the scout, sure we maintain the state of war as long as needed. Or, we switch it on and off as needed. So our scout can get home in that case.

There may be something of a time constraint to consider. We send the message off, let them dwell on the declare war thing for a few hours, and then we do so and then submit our move which includes our scout heading across the border. All this takes time. If I had my druthers that message would go out soon so we can make our move incl the scout. Your call.

[Nugog]

They have said we can cross their border.

Run Rabbit - run rabbit..........

[RobWorham]

Originally posted by Chuckman

Remember the Meditation-Priesthood route sets us up for an Oracle slingshot to Code of Laws and our Rathaus.

Should we not go the above route and get our UU as early as possible. We could make our first trade with PAL their Alphabet for our whatever, thus ensuring we have Alphabet to trade with our other neighbours.......

[Lancer]

Erm, your honey just said we shouldn't trade alph to them, maybe they have honeys too.

Nugog, no running is possible until we decide our course and send the message.

Rob, you and FeMme want it changed so that the trade of alph is out, just say so. If you want to take the UU tech path for sure, just say the word. We're burning daylight.

Btw, what is our UU?

[Lancer]

Should we resign ourselves to not moving our scout this turn?

When you all decide what it is you want I still need time to write it so take that into consideration. Until I get a response I'm off to play my halfway interesting game of Civ III. I'll check in maybe every three hours to see if anything has been decided.

[Chuckman]

I would feel most comfortable if we keep balance in our trades based on beakers. We should tell them as much.

In addition we should pick general branches, South and North. I want South as it has most of the military sciences (Iron Working, Feudalism, etc.) in addition to Meditation and Priesthood.

We should also add the condition that they must send us Alphabet within three turns of them acquiring it.

Tell them we already have Masonry but understand that they will want to research it to access their stone.

Ask them directly which other civilization they have detected. Point out that three civs on an island working together is better than 2.

[Lancer]

Chuckman, you should write a reply to PAL along those lines. Maybe they will decide to send it.

[Chuckman]

Here are some thoughts in the form of edits to Lancer's proposal:

**********

Friend PAL! Thank you for your gracious reply and letting our scout pass. Our gratitude will stand the test of time. Just FYI, we have masonry, but fully understand your desire to research it now to access your stone. There may be some minor, early, tech research duplication since we also have some small short term tech desires that we don't want to wait for until someone researches Alphabet. When the time comes that allows us to trade we will provide a more expansive list of our current techs. We are most eager to see progress in your visionary proposal and can't wait for that day when we can mutually advance our techs through continued co-operation.

In the area of separate and tradable research paths, we have a strong preference for the Southern route that includes Meditation and Priesthood. Our long term research relationship should be based on beaker parity. We realize that at any given moment one may owe the other a number of beakers, but over the long term it will balance out.

If you agree to take the Writing-Alphabet route, it must include the condition that when you research Alphabet you get it to us within 3 turns.

What other civ have you detected? Three civs on an island working in concert would be more powerful than two. Especially, as you point out, if two financial civs are on the other island working together.

Since we can't sign open borders until writing we will have to have a >>>non violent<<< state of 'war' in order for our scout to pass your territory. So, we will do so and when we pass we will quickly end the 'war' and resume the 'peace'. None of this will have any effect on our current state of friendship. During the 'war' we will still be at peace and in our current state of being in each others good graces. The 'war' will be a simple expedient and meaningless as we remain your close friends. Although, if you agree, some public disinformation about our war could aid long term strategy (wink, wink.)

We would like to again thank you. It was our pleasure to have our scout do fog busting duty on your Northern border for lo these many turns, barbarians can be so pesky. I'm sure with the groundwork laid by your proposal we can find a common ground mutually beneficial that fully describes our good relations. If you agree to this tech trading proposal, the next possible topic for discussion would be non duplication of World Wonder pursuit.

Lettuce and carrots always,

Rabbit

****************

back to commentary

We ask point blank about the other civ.

We require that they get Alphabet to us right away.

We set ourselves up for the Oracle slingshot.

We also point out that we know we gave them the direct benefit of fog busting our scout did.

Public disinformation about our war could help us strategically long term.

Originally posted by Lancer
Chuckman, great investigative work!

Zoid

PLATO, so that answers that question.

So, we need to get back to PAL with the fact we have masonry, correct?

Also, we're researching sailing now then archery? Whatever order we do that in I think we really need archers so any tangent we take should happen after we aquire these techs, yes?

We can't trade for them so we need to at least thank PAL for letting our scout pass and tell them we have masonry.

-----------------------------------

Friend PAL! Thank you for your gracious reply and letting our scout pass. Our gratitude will stand the test of time. Just FYI, we have masonry and will be ready and eager to trade it when we have alphabet. There may be some minor, early, tech research duplication since we will need alphabet in order to trade with other civs outside our PAL/Rabbit alliance. If we get to alphabet first we will certainly trade it to you, you have our word on that. When the time comes that allows us to trade we will provide a more expansive list of our current techs. We openly share with you the intel that we have masonry as a sign of good faith. We are most eager to see progress in your visionary proposal and can't wait for that day when we can mutually advance our techs through continued co-operation.

Since we can't sign open borders until writing we will have to have a >>>non violent<<< state of 'war' in order for our scout to pass your territory. So, we will do so and when we pass we will quickly end the 'war' and resume the 'peace'. None of this will have any effect on our current state of (unofficial) alliance. During the 'war' we will still be at peace and in our current state of being in each others good graces. The 'war' will be a simple expedient and meaningless as we remain your close friends.

We would like to again thank you and would like to discuss an alliance based upon your gracious act or allowing our scout to pass. We will prepare a reply to your alliance proposal. Today I'm occupied by other worldly concerns but will get to it as soon as possible using your alliance proposal as a basis for our suggestions. I'm sure with the groundwork laid by your proposal we can find a common ground mutually beneficial that fully describes our good relations.

[Lancer]

That looks good. I think my early bit about us researching alph should go though. I also did some small editing. See what you think. This is good because it takes into account FeMme's and Robs considerations about alph too.
------------------
Friend PAL! Thank you for your gracious reply and letting our scout pass. Our gratitude will stand the test of time. Just FYI, we have masonry, but fully understand your desire to research it now to access your stone. When the time comes that allows us to trade we will provide a more expansive list of our current techs. We are most eager to see progress in your visionary proposal and can't wait for that day when we can mutually advance our techs through continued co-operation.

In the area of separate and tradable research paths, we have a strong preference for the Southern route that includes Meditation and Priesthood. Our long term research relationship should be based on beaker parity. We realize that at any given moment one may owe the other a number of beakers, but over the long term it will balance out.

If you agree to take the Writing-Alphabet route, it must include the condition that when you research Alphabet you get it to us within 3 turns. If no trade is possible the tally of beakers for alphabet will be to our debit and we'll pay it off with our next available science.

What other civ have you detected? Three civs on an island working in concert would be more powerful than two. Especially, as you point out, if two financial civs are on the other island working together. Lettuce be forthright and not keep these things from each other.

Since we can't sign open borders until writing we will have to have a >>>non violent<<< state of 'war' in order for our scout to pass your territory. So, we will do so and when we pass we will quickly end the 'war' and resume the 'peace'. None of this will have any effect on our current state of friendship. During the 'war' we will still be at peace and in our current state of being in each others good graces. The 'war' will be a simple expedient and meaningless as we remain your close friends. Although, if you agree, some public disinformation about our war could aid long term strategy (wink, wink.)

We would like to again thank you. It was our pleasure to have our scout do fog busting duty on your Northern border, barbarians can be so pesky. I'm sure with the groundwork laid by your proposal we can find a common ground mutually beneficial that fully describes our good relations. If you agree to this tech trading proposal, the next possible topic for discussion would be non duplication of World Wonder pursuit.

Lettuce and carrots always,

Rabbit

[Zoid]

Rabbit cooperation

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Zoid
Rabbit cooperation