Strategy Notes From Vel - The Early Game....

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Kriton
4. Does the AI value techs based on their research cost only?

From what i remember, NO.

A militaristic civ would value techs different to a peaceful civ, so its not based only on their research cost alone. For example, the Zulus would see "Warrior Code" or such as a must-have tech, while for the Indians, it would just be a tech to further them along the tree, to get to the cultural advances.

Hope that was understandable

[vmxa1]

No I know you can not reload to change the out come, I mean in completely separate battles with different units. Even if I concede it to a toss up (and I do not), I said vets and even elites again regulars? I agree it is fine to lose in an other wise lopside battle, just not often. You mention things that do not exist in the game as an example such as weapons and tatics as the cause as the reason to lose in those instances, I say fine, but how often can I expect to get jammed by a super smart rebel? If I am to be in a maze of stone works for them to hide in and jump out all I ask is let me know before hand. Of all the battles I see it seems they do not come out as one would expect (immortal vets losing to warriors now (new game). All are in favor of the AI, I have never had such a victory? I barely won a battle with an elite immortal on a hill against a spearman regular just before coming here. I bet if the AI had the immortal, I would have done no damage. Maybe I am being premature to make this call as I have only played 7 games so far, but it is very suspicous. The AI is smart, though, they will send in someone to attack your unit if it is wonded. They will retreat if they can save their own and will come in force, well done.

[Ghengis Thom]

Strategic resource isolation

Stiel, I swear that I had this city all by itself that had horses. And when the road was severed this city could make Horseman, it was not my capital.
I believe only Luxuries have to get to the capitol. Strategic is on a city by city basis.

Ghengis Thom

[Dark Hawk]

First things first, this thread is the god of strategy.

Brilliant strategies from everyone posting, and best of all, everyone understands that losing is a part of every and any game. Like they say, "Whatever doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger."

On to what I wanted to say. I am totally new to the civilization genre of games meaning I have never played civ1 or civ2 but I have played many games of civ3 so that should account for something.

The AI doesn't use maps. They know where you are, what weaknesses you have, and where to strike, even on the easiest of difficulties.

In one of my games, I was playing as the persians and I was at war with the indians. I was in south africa, india to the north. Basically, I pushed all my military to the borders leaving my capital undefended because it was the farthest away from the battle.

Can you say backdoor-galley-horseman rush? I mean, they didn't even establish an embassy with me yet, let alone trade world maps with me. It really sucked to see that the AI knows everything about you without having to pay for it.

Oh well, at least I learned something from that game, keep all cities defended unless you want to lose it. Simple as that.

[vmxa1]

I don't know if they cheat or not, but even in Civ2, I only leave cities uncovered if they are inland and can not be reached in one turn (no RR access). They will definetly show up if you have a hole. I like to lure them with one or two worker or even a settler close to the border and when they come, jump out with mobile force (knights/calv whatever). Kill them and recover the workers. I finaly figured that unlike civ2, you must keep pumping out troops, even when this look good. No more one or two defenders in towns. When they come it will be with numbers until you cut down their numbers.

[Just My 2 Cents]

Can't wait for your strat guide Vel, you did a bang-up job with SMACX and are THE MAN.

IMHO I feel sacrificing a couple pop points to rush build a cultural city improvement while in Despotism is totally worth it from an accumulated culture score standpoint considering it's best to lose population on the lower end than the higher end... we all get to a point where your cities are maxed at size 12 and waiting for hospitals so instead of having those cities simply wait kill off some of your citizens and rush build improvements.

I played two games, both as the Americans (not a "cultural" civ per se esp. in the early game) on Monarch level. In the first game I didn't play my usual Civ/SMACX style (expand like a maniac) and instead concentrated on building cultural improvements as quickly as possible, even at the expense of population. The second I played my usual style and had the fortune of being on a fairly large continent alone.

Long story short, in the first game I "conquered" 7 cities due to my culture (rush built temples and libraries ASAP)... by the time I achieved the spaceship victory I was first in culture. In the second game, despite the fact I had a much larger civilization (with many many more culture producing improvements) I was always lagging behind in culture to the Egyptians, Greeks and Germans.

Point is get those improvements out as fast as you can because the accumulated points make a difference later in the game. For example if you can be the first civ to build a temple or a library and can ensure that these improvements are never destroyed you will reap huge rewards by the end game.

just my two cents...

[Kriton]

IMHO I feel sacrificing a couple pop points to rush build a cultural city improvement while in Despotism is totally worth it from an accumulated culture score standpoint considering it's best to lose population on the lower end than the higher end... we all get to a point where your cities are maxed at size 12 and waiting for hospitals so instead of having those cities simply wait kill off some of your citizens and rush build improvements.

Yes, I agree. Consider that each pop is worth 20 shields. In diety/emp you get unhappy quickly. Rushing temples is great, especially if you're not a religious civ. And like you said, you may end up stagnating at 6 or 12, but by 12 I should hope you're out of despotism.

Now, I just had an interesting game. I started on the very tip of a continent as the Chinese (my fav) with the Americans above me. Indians very far and Iroquios every further . So, I started building archers early and an extra city. I took a couple of american cities and then bargained for peace. I kept doing this over and over. I found nobody else -- and I was stuck in a corner -- so I had to keep building archers, taking US cities and getting their tech through peace.

When I finally met the Indians, I was producing horsemen and rush building them when necessary. Almost all were vets. I took the second last US city and got 5 techs and all their money out of them. Then when I had enough horsemen, I went after the Indians. The problem was, they had War Elephants by this time! But my great military skill proved more than a match. I was at their capital and one unit away from victory, but my horsemen couldn't heal in enemy territory, so they got killed eventually. I opted for peace and went Republic. I never got any iron and nobody had any extra for trade, so I couldn't build my UU or even a swordsman. So I'm screwed.

Now I want to know a few things from the experts here.

1. Is it hopeless if I'm stuck in a corner (where my palace is half unused)?

2. Should I attack with archers or wait for horsemen/swordsmen?

3. Which units should I use against spearmen?

4. If I have one spearman for defence in a city, should I build a warrior or a wall for better defence?

5. What is a better unit for attack, horseman or swordsman? I figure the fact that the horseman doesn't die offsets his lesser attack/defence.

6. I find that it is cheaper to buy tech from others when I'm behind and use the extra money to rush build in Republic. Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

7. Lastly, exactly what effect does WLT*D have? Can it be used as a strategy (like growing your pop as in Civ1)?

I really appreciate the feedback so far. Thanks!

4. Does the AI value techs based on their research cost only?

I should've been more clear about this question. Question 6 above is what I was really looking for. I know techs become cheaper to research if more civs already have it, but if you buy it from them, will it be cheaper if more civs already have it?

Time to conquer! Bye...

[Kriton]

Here's a savegame. I hope somebody will look at it and give me some pointers. Thanks

[quinalla]

Thanks Vel and everyone else for all the great strategy tips. I have never played a civ game until civ 3, so I was pretty clueless when I started, but this thread helped a lot! Oh, and I gotta say I love to hate the AI, you can't turn your back on them for a second, makes it quite a challenge.

-quinalla

[Lohrax]

Playing Style

Kriton - my answers to your quesitons, which reveals a little about my playing style:

1. I wouldn't consider a corner as being hopeless unless you had no resources. Corner + relocated palace + Forbidden Palace allows for a great deal of one-axis expansion. Based on my own experience, my empires tend to form ellipsoidal shapes with the palace and FP at the focal points. That being said, most of my empires expand along only one axis anyway (more than one kills you with corruption).

2. Attacking with archers against warriors is doable, but prepare to take some losses. Attacking with archers against spearmen is worse. Horsemen allow for retreat, which means it becomes a hit point battle. Against a non-militaristic civ, I would use horsemen to hit spearman. Against a militaristic civ (whose defenders are going to get promoted faster), I would wait and use catapults + horsemen to soften up, and then finish up with swordsmen. There are inherent advantages present in using combined arms strategies - use 'em!

3. Combined arms, or wait until cavalry come along...

4. Hmmm...build warrior or wall? Well, I would build another spearman. The wall will cost you one gold, but a military unit won't (unless you've got a large army). The wall will give your one unit a defense bonus, but it is still one unit - you lose it and you're in trouble. A second unit gives you additional defensive capability, as well as mobile defense for workers improving tiles and settlers going out to found new cities.

5. Horsemen to soften up defenses, swordsman to go in and finish the job.

6. Under despotism, I trade pop for production at every opportunity; and try to max out my happiness improvements while still a despot. I use gold for buying tech and trading luxuries/resources. Under Republic, I've hopefully built all the happiness improvements so I can afford to set my science rate higher.

7. Never heard of WLT*D?

Enjoy, and I'll be taking a look at your save game tonight!

Lohrax

"I love the smell of perfume in the morning....smells like...victory!"

[Gunther]

Kriton:

Ill try to answer your questions one by one.

1. No, its not hopeless. You can always move your palace, and you can build the forbidden palace. It would be a good idea to plan your future empire now and build your palace in the location that will fit your future situation (Meaning your situation after you do all the expansion / conquests your planning on). Look at Vel’s palace and FP placement chart, shoot to make your empire look like that if you can (But don’t give up resources just to have an empire with a pretty shape).

2. I tend to build up defense and production power before I war. But I have been playing in 16 civ games lately, and let me tell you the AI is bloodthirsty! If you feel you can win and hold on to the cities you capture then I say go for it. If not, then hold off and build power. What you don’t want to do is let the AI get too far ahead of you in the tech race or let it develop its infrastructure much beyond your own. War costs money and time, and if all you do is fight the other AI civs may get ahead of you.

3. You can use a horseman / swordsman combo on spearman, use the horseman to soften the spearman up then the swordsman to finish him off. Try not to let the spearman have a terrain advantage.

4. One spearman is not good enough in a city that may be attacked. If I’m involved in a big war I to try to get 2 or 3 (or more) spearmen in those cities on the front lines plus walls plus a counter attacker for cleaning up the wounded enemy attackers (Horseman or knights are great for this but any attack unit will do). But for me I would put in a second unit then walls.

5. In regards to your question horseman vs. swordsman I think, as with many things in this game there is no real best, it’s a matter of personal preference and style.

I have found that horseman / knights / war elephants are awesome, if you employ a strategy that uses their mobility to its full effect. The obvious is that they can retreat, so they rarely die if you protect them properly, and it costs nothing to fortify them till they regain health.
Secondly, they can counter attack weakened enemy units very effectively. I like to station one or to mobile attackers in every border city (And most other cities). When the enemy attacks me and retreats with one bar of health left, I send out the horseman / knight / elephant / Calvary to kill the weak unit, and due to their mobility they can return to the protection of the city in the same turn.
Thirdly, since I keep one or 2 mobile units in most cities, I can quickly mobilize them into a very formidable attacking force. As the pesky American’s and Zulu’s will tell you in my last game, they attacked, I defended, and within 5 turns I had 10 - 15 elephants attacking one of their cities. As the city fell I moved onto the next (Since the wounded elephants are smart enough to retreat, I lost none).

Swordsmen, archers and longbow men are a little different. They are cheaper / faster to build then their elephant / Calvary counterparts, they are slower and they cannot defend well (So they require a pikeman or musketman escort) but in some cases they attack better. I find these units to be good if you want to build a cheap army quickly. 10 swordsmen have a better chance of taking a city than 10 horsemen, but you might lose a few in the process.


6. I like to buy techs from one civ and then sell it to all others. You can make some good extra gold this way.
As the game goes on (In regent anyway) I tend to become the tech leader, then I usually don’t sell military techs.


7. Not sure what you’re asking.


Hope this helps.


Gunther.

[hoyatables]

this weekend's exploits

Okay, so I had two interesting games this weekend.
I did a tiny map, four civs, and we were all on one continent. Well, I immediately got hemmed in on the east side by the British, and only had about four cities, which soon expanded to six as i settled a mountain for iron and desert for potential saltpeter.
I decided to go for diplomacy, and had a gracious rating with the Brits, Japanese, and Indians. The Japanese tried to settle in my area once or twice, but I would pretty quickly capture their cities by culture.
The only problem? I had kinda neglected defense, because I had such a great rating. Well, just as I got gunpowder, wouldn't you know it? The Brits sweep in and attack - a GRACIOUS rating and they attack? UN&*^*^BELIEVABLE! I had no response. I held my own for a while by rushing some musketmen, but when I retaliated and attacked a weakened cavalry unit, the Indians jumped in.
I did make things more interesting by getting the Japanese on my side and giving them one of my cities. eventually I gave them all and lost the rest because I didn't feel like giving in to the Brits ridiculous demands.
Moral: Diplomacy sucks. Sword is mightier than the pen.

Onto strategy lesson from game two. Went back, finally, to the French I know and love. It's just easier that way. Did panagea because I was sick of getting stuck on an isolated island, and of course I get stuck on the tip of a peninsula. But I was lucky: three of my core five cities had either Spices, Dyes, or Wine. Big groups, too. SO here's a thought - when you are exploring and find a nice trove, send out a settler right away and build a city. If nothing else, that city will have immediate access to the resources to help with happiness until you link them up to the rest of the empire. It should help.

**Got stuck with no iron or horses. No chance of an early army. I have now explored the DEPTHS of early combat with a civ other than Persians or Aztecs. NOT worth it unless you are a) Militaristic, b) sitting on top of iron and horses AND c) have at least twice what you think you need to win a battle. The costs are too high and you will stunt early growth otherwise. What I've found works best is sending out a couple of early units to explore, and when you get those cheesy warriors, bring them back to the cities for reinforcements. And If you find a trove of barbarians, send out your swordsmen/horsemen troops for some on the job training. They'll easily jump up to veteran/elite status. Building barracks also, obviously, helps out.

If you are missing these things, you'll have a devil of a time. The AI seems to have at least three units per city, defying all explanations. Very frustrating for most of my repeated efforts. From now on I will stick to fighting wars when i know I have the advantage - tanks rolling over knights is much more enjoyable.

[Velociryx]

'afternoon all! I'm chiming in late, I know....LOL...been caught up in the Thanksgiving-preparations rush 'round here, and have had only limited time to Civ....

But! I wanted to say a quick thank you for the kind words and compliments, and also mention that it does indeed appear that there will be a Vel's Civ Guide....seems like the interest in such a project is certainly there, so how can I refuse!?

I'm neck deep in writing a LONG article re: all the civs, and here's the first part of that in-depth analysis....just wanted to get SOMETHING finished today to put up here to get your opinion on!

-=Vel=-


The Factions – A closer analysis (Part One)

Before we can begin picking apart the factions (and that’s in the works as I type this….it’s just that the article wound up taking far longer to type than I had originally anticipated, and I wanted to get something out today), it would be insightful to take a close look at one of the key aspects that define Civs. Their tendencies, and the advantages of those tendencies. With that in mind, here’s a quick survey of the strengths and weaknesses of the various tendencies that define Civs:

Expansionist:
Starting Tech = Pottery (Grainery)
Free Scout at game Start (2 Move/ 0 Attack Exploration Unit)
Goody Huts = More good stuff & no barbarians

The usefulness of this trait is directly tied to world size and the amount of water you have selected for your planet. Small worlds, or worlds without much land will GREATLY disadvantage this trait’s strongest points. Conversely, the larger the planet/more land to be had, the stronger this trait becomes.

Keep in mind too, that this is an almost entirely early game trait. It’s only useful as long as there are huts to be “popped,” and land to be explored. After that, it becomes largely useless (save for the fact that you start with the tech for graineries, which essentially allows you to double your growth rates in cities, thus expand even faster!). The lesson here: Expansionist Civs live and die by their early game! A strong opener will set you up for an even stronger mid-game. Falter once during the Ancient era though, and you’ll spend the bulk of your time playing catch-up.

Militaristic:
Starting Tech = Warrior Code
Military units gain morale faster, higher chance of generating a leader, barracks are half price.

A good trait, but not a great one. Even with a militaristic civ, it’s frustratingly hard to generate leaders, and with even moderately active barbarians milling about, most civs will not have any great difficulty in training elite warriors of various stripes, thus limiting the impact of two of the strongest selling points of this trait.

Armies too, are a good bit weaker than they should be, further limiting the power of the Militaristic trait.

Still, it does have its advantages. Long-term, you WILL gain more Great Leaders than your non-militaristic rivals, which is essentially a free pass at wonder-building (and don’t bother to build a small wonder with a GL….save them for major wonder-building to steal a juicy wonder out from under a Civ that has been hard at work on it for half a century or more!). And Armies, while not the powerhouses we initially envisioned them to be, are still useful in certain situations, and the creation of your first army (actually, the army’s first victory) leads to minor wonders that cannot be created otherwise.

To a lesser degree than Expansionist Civs, Militarism’s usefulness is tied to world size in reverse. Cheaper barracks means faster barracks, and on Tiny maps, the several turns faster barracks construction can make or break your game. As world size increases, and with it, the distances between Civs, this ability begins to diminish in impact, though not nearly to the extent that Expansionistic Civs suffer under tiny maps.

In all, the Militaristic trait is a collection of decent abilities, none of which truly stand out, but when combined, make a sturdy-enough Civ Trait.

Commercial:
Starting Tech: Alphabet
Less Corruption in cities
1 Extra Gold in each 7+ City

A powerful trait by any definition, for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, with Corruption such a killer to city productivity, ANY means of combating it is a good thing, and Civs with this trait come with a built-in advantage. Thus, you can expect to see Commercial Civs with larger, more productive empires on the whole. Larger Empires = More production centers. More production centers = more territory controlled, more access to resources, and more places that units can be built in a reasonable amount of time.

As you might expect then, the Commercial trait doesn’t really come into its own until the mid-game.

After all, when you’ve only got two or three cities, and they’re all pretty close together, corruption isn’t an issue at all! But, as your Empire matures and grows….as you expand and begin to flex your muscles a bit, you’ll find this trait moves from “helpful,” to “invaluable” in its overall value.

As an added benefit, the Commercial Civ starts with a VERY attractive tech, along the path toward Republic and the Great Library!! This fact simply cannot be overstated, and is hugely important in planning your Civ’s future!

Scientific:
Starting Tech: Bronze Working
Free Tech advance as you enter each new age, lab-enhancing infrastructure is half price.

By itself, the free tech is a NICE boon for this ability to have, but when added to the fact that everything that enhances your labs (libraries, universities, research centers, etc) is half price for you, and you’ve got yourself an EXTREMELY attractive Civ trait! (mostly because there are actually quite a number of lab-enhancing facilities!).

No matter how you look at it, “Scientific” is a tough act to follow, but they have yet one more ability that the casual player may not have thought of, and it relates to their starting tech.

No…the ability to build Spearmen from the get-go isn’t it! LOL…true, that’s a nice boon, but even MORE important is the fact that the Scientific Civs are exactly one tech out from Iron Working.

He who discovers where the iron deposits are first can play a resource denial type of game with regards to city placement and find himself in an absolutely unbeatable ancient-era position very quickly! (How hard do you suppose it would be to defeat your opponent KNOWING that you had a monopoly on your continent’s iron supply, or at the very least knowing that your opponent had no iron at all for the foreseeable future?).

The proximity to Iron Working is what makes the Scientific trait a true gem….the free tech and cheaper facilities are just a wonderful bonus!

Industrious:
Starting Tech: Masonry
Double-speed Workers
Extra production shields in large cities (1 in ea. 7+ City)

The production bonus is minor, and though it’s impact will be felt for the better part of the game, it is not this trait’s strongest selling point by any means.

First and foremost is the double-speed worker ability. This simply cannot be overstated! And the first time you have to clear out jungle tiles, you’ll be eternally grateful for your industrious workers! In the early game, those workers can really be a godsend, allowing for lighting quick road construction to speed your settlers on their way, and bulking up your mineral counts at selected bases faster than you’d ever have believed possible! Worker speed alone would be reason enough to favor this Civ trait, but that’s not all you get!

Have a look at your starting tech, and the GREAT early game wonder that comes with it! (and with rapid expansion, your Civ can be working on this project well before the others even THINK about starting it!) No matter how you look at it, Industrious is one of the strongest traits in the game!

Religious:
Starting Tech: Ceremonial Burial
Happiness-producing builds are half price, anarchy only lasts one turn.

This trait is all about control of your citizens. You get a LOT of city improvements for half off, and they ALL help keep the masses content. When you want to switch from one form of government to another, forget decades of turmoil. One measly turn, and you’re back in charge and churning along like nobody’s business.

Considering that most Civ’s will make 3-4 government switches during the course of a game, and that a city totally shuts down when unhappy citizens riot, and the advantages of this trait become clear.

It’s all about turn advantage here. Your cities will be among the happiest in the world, and switching government types is a piece of cake, enabling you to take advantage of mid-game political situations, declare war (switching to communism and using population to rush….well, anything you want), then switching back when your objectives have been reached, and reaping the benefits of instant Democracy!

And, considering how many happiness-enhancing buildings there are, you can all but guarantee that you’ll be one of the leading contenders in the Culture war!

Your starting tech is on a direct path to Monarchy, which is good….the more government types you have to choose from when you go to make a switch, the better for you, and playing to your natural strength in starting tech, you’re fairly well-suited to go ahead and beeline for Monarchy in any case.

The next installment of this piece will take a look at the various factions in the game, in terms of their Civ-Traits and Special Units, and offer up specific in-game strats for getting the most out of each.

-V.

[Gunther]

I thought I would add in one of my early game strategies…

I am playing as India, and I’m having a lot of success with them because of their religious trait. It is simply awesome to have God with you in the early years during the REX phase. The ever-expanding cultural influence is a divine blessing. In a well-located city (one with good food squares) I will build warrior, warrior, settler, temple, settler… with the temple taking between 10 – 15 turns (assuming I have built a mine or the city is placed in a good spot).
By the time I get into mid REX where the AI civs are beginning to compete with me for land, all my border cities have temples, which seals the holes in the border and gives me the chance for a cultural conversion of their cities.
By the time we get into the end of REX just about all of my cities have made their first cultural border expansion, and a lot of them have made their second. So all the little unclaimed holes that are often left in the middle of a young empire, the ones that the AI loves to settle in, are safely filled. And since I can count on all this border expansion keeping the enemies out, I can safely keep my cities at an optimal distance apart. This becomes a huge plus later in the game when population gets into the 20s.
Also if I choose to take over AI controlled cities I can zip in a fast temple to help prevent cultural takeover and to fill in the borders quickly.


Benefits of Religious:
*Cheap temples. Most effective if used to build lots of temples in the very early game.
*If used to build early temples then HUGE border expansions.
*If used to build early temples them you can safely spread your cities out to optimal distance (Since your borders will expand to fill the holes).
*If used to build early temples then you end up with a HUGE culture lead.
*Happy people. In regent you only get 2 free content people, so having a temple in every city early on helps big.
*Cheap cathedrals. Again, most useful if you build them early to get a cultural lead on the AI.
*Short anarchy. I typically make 2 government switches, so its 12 turns for free.


I have played a few times like this in regent on a large map with 16 civs. And by the medieval times I have ended up with an empire that was a good deal larger than average (Usually the biggest of all) and the best culture by far. My military is usually not so strong in the very early ancient since I spend 15 shields on a temple as opposed to training a few warriors. I worry about the Persians with their immortals… at our temples we pray to avoid an early war with them.
This strategy leaves me set up with a lot of space to develop a booming economy and sets me well on the path to a cultural or space race win (Of course with such a strong economy I could do a military win later on in the game, like when I get tanks). Its biggest effect is felt if used right at the beginning, but they last till the end of the game.


- Gunther.

[Nero Would]

Great tips Vel! I have a couple of comments on your Civ Strengths summary.

You left out one of the strengths of Commercial civs - they get 1 extra gold from each pop 7+ city. As with the extra shield for Industrious civs, it's not a huge advantage.

The editor allows you to assign free techs to a civ independantly of the civ strength (e.g. you can give a Religious civ Warror Code instead of Ceremonial burial if you want). The free tech that you list for each civ strength is the one that Firaxis chose to associate with that strength: with one exception. Japan (which is militaristic) gets The Wheel instead of Warrior Code (at least the editor says it does, I haven't played a game as Japan). It's the only civ that starts with The Wheel, and the Wheel is the only tech that is given only to one civ.

One of my early research priorities is to get The Wheel and Iron Working so I can see the horse and iron resource tiles. I usually play as England, so I start near Germany and Russia who are both scientific and I can usually trade for Bronze Working with one of them quite early. So I research The Wheel first (since nobody near me starts with it) and then go for Iron Working after I have traded for Bronze Working.