Ultimate Power: a more pragmatic approach

[vmxa1]

Warriors or archers against a pike is hard way to go, that is for sure.

[fanes7]

I am just skilling in creating GL , yesterday night I fight out a GL in 3450BC in this month game-23.

I will upload at noontime.


thx all for your reply, i will explain detailed.

Originally posted by Dominae
I would rather point fanes7 to the Game of the Month, over at CFC. They are better-equipped and more used to dealing with these kinds of things.

fanes7, if you want to prove your skill, GOTM is the place to do it.


Dominae

[fanes7]

Sorry , Uthman appeared in 3150BC , not 3450BC.

I don't know if I can upload the savefile before 30 Sept.

A most important idea is : The first thing you do , when you first meet a civ, is declare war to him. Not the damnable peace, the peace must gain by the war-winning.

[xinyue]

Becuase I always play chinses version of PTW, I don't know what exact name of 1.2.1 unit after Bronze Works. Sadly in my online-dictionary, 1.2.1 spearman == 1.3.1 pikeman, now I notice it difference in CIV world.

My previous post pikeman is a mistake, I want to say it is a spearman(1.2.1) in early game.

Also I say 2 times means 2 twice their defensive unit strength or sometimes means 2 twice their numbers, I also learn correct english syntax from Master Zen how to express.

I should try play with english version, and remember hardly those unit/civ's english name. Thanks.

[fanes7]

Now I war with 4 countries at the same time in 3050BC, the carthage, ottoman, persia and india, so the battles subsequent to that is a hard baptism for me.

[vmxa1]

fanes7 you can edit any of your post to make the corrections, if you want.
Decalring war or not declaring war it only impacts your reputation, not the out come of a combat.
We understand that to get a leader for the first wonder, you will need to attack some AI unit very quickly. This I have done many scores, if not a hundred times. I can not say I have many leaders to show for it.
You will only have a warrior or an archer at that stage. You could have a spearmen soon, but they are not going to win many battles on offense. So the problem is that you have 111 or 211 units to fight with. I will ignore UU for now. This means you will be using mostly regular unit, not even vets. Once in a while you may get a vets from barbs before you must engage, but not all that often. After a number of turns, you could get a barracks and make vets. Anyway winning these battles one on one is iffy at best. Getting elites increase the odd of winning, but you still need to create a leader.
I only mention this to point out most here are well versed in the mechanics of the game. We know how to make leaders, just not at the consistancy and frequency that you seem to.

xinyue the unit you are looking for is likely a swordsmen. That becomes available with Iron Working, if you have iron hooked up to a city.

[Master Zen]

3150 BC is barely 17 turns into the game. During that time you could have built under most circumstances, 4 warriors or 2 archers. If you built archers then you'd only be able to have one far enough to have met another civ and engage in combat. With warriors, you could have had 2 in combat range and a 3rd with luck close behind.

Assuming good luck, either of these situations could have netted you about 2-4 combats at the most. Since your units had to be regulars, you would first need to make them vets then elites. The odds of getting vets (mil civ) is 1/2 IIRC. Then you'd need 1/4 to get an elite. Then you'd need what, 1/16 to get the leader?

Just look at those odds. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but to do it consistently is simply impossible. No offense but there's no way in my mind how this can be done every time....

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by fanes7
Now I war with 4 countries at the same time in 3050BC, the carthage, ottoman, persia and india, so the battles subsequent to that is a hard baptism for me.

Just to remind everybody that this is not the original game with Greece, where fanes7 had all his GL (and a Settler from the first hut!). Persia and India were not in the Greece game.

[fanes7]

All I built are warriors.

At beginning, 4 turns a warrior built,

9,10,11 turn for one,

After 11 turn, 2 turns for one.

so I have 6 warriors after 17 turns,at 3150BC.

[vmxa1]

That is nice, but what is being asked is not how many units you have, but how do they get turned into leaders at all times? If I have 6 warriors and 2 or even 3 have not gotten out of the city yet. This is because they can only go so fast and I will need at least one to stay home. The first warrior starts moving on turn 5, how far can he get by turn 17. How many units can he have met? No barbs are going to be on the scene at this stage. So even if I presume I will met an unlimited or better yet the proper number of troops, I have no way to be sure I will win all of my battles, let alone get a promotion. If two warriors have combat on equal terms, there is no skill to determine the outcome. Skill could come into play if I can get a terrain advantage, but I can not rely on that for every battle, every game.
This is the crux of the problem from my perspective.

[vmxa1]

I should have added that even if you manage to get a terrain advantage, it does not mean you will win the fight. I am sure all of the non reloading players have lost units when fortified on a hill to an equal unit and even to a weaker unit. My elite warrior on a hill, gets killed by a conscripted warrior. It happens and I have used all the knowlege I have, but lost anyway.

[Arrian]

Very true. I've lost elite swordsmen to regular archers on flat ground (swordsman attacking archer) several times. Flawlessly, even (no loss of hit points by the archer). Sometimes the RNG is cruel. Sometimes it is kind. But the odds of a few regular warriors getting throw into combat and 1) winning their battles instead of dying; 2) getting promoted twice each to elite; and 3) generating leaders... well, the the odds are low.

I love it when I get an ultra early leader from an exploring warrior who trains up on a barb or two and then takes down an AI settler team or something like that. Love it. But it's rare. And that's ONE early leader.

I find it difficult to believe that simply by building regular warrior after regular warrior and throwing them into battle, fanes7 is able to get all these leaders.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

That early GL you got was probably more like around 2000BC or later, not 34xxBC or even 31xxBC. The killer to me is sending all those warriors out to start a fight with a civ a deity. The AU starts with 12 warriors or even better. Not nice if you land next to Hammy, he may have bowman already. Anyway they have 12 to start and will be making more units, once you start a war. When I play deity and decide to go on an ealry attack with warriors (so rare as to be about 3 times), I will send my warriors to their capitol. If I do not take down that capitol first, they will probably swamp me. I am not good enough to win all my battles and will be looking at maybe 14 warriors or more by that time. I mean, I am not really a deity player, but I have played enough of it to know something of how it works. Of those 3 shots, I only managed to get 1 to work that I recall. I think one other was a draw and the other one I had got killed.
I do not consider it a startegy, rather a test that was shown to be not worth doing. You need to wait for at least archers.

[alexman]

I think the explanation for fanes' outrageous claims is that he's using the DYP mod. That mod is considerably easier for the human, because the AI doesn't know how to use the modded features, and I also think that it changes the timeline so that there are more turns before 3000 B.C. Also, growth is slowed down so you have to produce more units before settlers, but the AI doesn't know that. (I'm not actually sure of all this, as I have never actually tried the mod, but that's the only explanation I can imagine).

[Arrian]

The ultra early leader I was talking about was around 1250bc, IIRC. My general barometer is that "ultra early" means getting one before the Forbidden is an option and/or before the AI builds the Pyramids.

I will say this: getting early leaders was slightly easier under CivIII 1.29 than under PTW, because of the changes to the barbarians. In CivIII 1.29, when you popped barbs from a hut, they would suicide rush you, and if you won, you were automatically elite. So that did help a bit. Oh, if I was as good at ultra early war then as I am now...

-Arrian