Ultimate Power: a more pragmatic approach

[Verto]

Originally posted by Master Zen
you got 55 leaders in one game?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


(my record is 11 in huge)

I usually get 7.

[Arrian]

Update for any who might care:

I decided to gift techs to Korea, hoping they would get nationalism when they entered the Industrial Age. And I got lucky. So I was able to trade for Nationalism for techs everyone else already had (Demo, Steam Power, Medicine, IIRC). Then, after knocking the Mongols down to 2 cities, I got Communism for peace. The Mongols died precisely 22 turns later.

Dominae is entirely correct, btw, about my mindset. I know I didn't need Police Stations to win. But I did need them to have the empire I wanted, for fun. Just like I want all 8 luxuries. I don't need them to win, but they make my multitudes happy, and since I am a river to my people, I must have them. And I do, thanks to severe stupidity on the part of Cleopatra, and the wonders of Modern Armor (when used against poor 'ole infantry). I'm going with the SS win, though, so most of Egypt is getting razed.

Regarding Fanes' game, wow, that's some damn good leader luck with a non-militaristic civ! I mean, just getting that many units promoted to elite is impressive, let alone getting leaders out of them

Having said that, I think I mentioned that my Chinese game started with some excellent leader luck. Wanna know *how* excellent? My first archer (vet) won a battle and was promoted to elite. A turn or two later, it won another battle, and generated a leader. Shortly thereafter, my second elite archer, upon winning its first elite combat, generated leader #2.

In short, 2 early leaders from my first 2 elite combat wins. Yikes. Without that luck, things would have been much more difficult. This was like playing on a level inbetween Monarch and Emperor. Which I enjoyed thoroughly, of course.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

I was just thinking of my Seven Pillars thread for fanes7...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=67506

And there goes Arrian with a reference to "Lawrence of Arabia."

I AM A RIVER TO MY PEOPLE!!

(I feel the same, of course )

[Dominae]

Sorry to be a troll:

Having reviewed fanes7's game, I can confidently say there is nothing he is doing that justifies the appearance of so many Great Leaders (no ground-breaking strategy here). Even if it is "super luck", I'm skeptical that it can occur in all his games.

Therefore I will put forward that fanes7 is either:

1. Cheating.
2. Using modified rules without his knowledge.
3. So lucky he would be better off playing the lottery than civ.

1 and 2 differ only in intent.

But, I am open to being proved wrong. I would be interested in playing the same set of moves from a savegame of my choosing with him. If some of his "luck" then transfers to me, I'll remove my doubts.

fanes7, I think the burden of proof is on you to show how you get such amazing yet amazingly improbable results. Otherwise I'm afraid people will start ignoring you.

Again, sorry to be a troll, but no one seems to have stepped up to the plate lately.


Dominae

[Arrian]

Theseus glad you caught the reference.

Dominae - it does seem a bit improbable, doesn't it? But didn't fanes attach saves?

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
But didn't fanes attach saves?

I have neither the time nor the expertise to figure out if they were tampered with...


Dominae

[vmxa1]

I agree with Dom. The reason I did not step forward, is I can not figure out anyway it could be done, even with cheating, other than an editor. I do not even know if an editor exist.
I am not sure if endless reloading would even be able to do it, but I guess it could.
I once argued with a Might and Magic player that felt it was ok to reload a 100 times to get a scroll form a shop.
He felt that ws not cheating? I could not see the difference between that and using an editor to give yourself the scroll, except it would save time.
My point is that some people are willing to reload endlessly. It is unfathomable to me, how could one stand to do it?
Anyway great claims, require great proof. If it was me and I could do that, I would do a session game. I would post a start save. I would post periodic saves with detailed logs to make it so one could replicate the results. This is what I do in Moo2 games. That way it is plain to see how it was done and anyone can repeat it.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Dominae

Therefore I will put forward that fanes7 is either:

1. Cheating.
2. Using modified rules without his knowledge.
3. So lucky he would be better off playing the lottery than civ.

I haven't really read all the posts by fanes7 but wasn't he using a mod or something like that?

However, leader generation is hard-coded so its not like you can change the editor to get a leader for every elite victory

I too would like to see if at least random seed was checked on or off.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Master Zen
However, leader generation is hard-coded so its not like you can change the editor to get a leader for every elite victory.

Frankly, I have little idea how cheats work. I do know that they often break seemingly "hard-coded" game rules.

Perhaps it's just reloading with Random Seed off, but in my ignorance I can imagine that some more direct for of cheating could be going on.

Or, case 3 is true, and we've got one lucky sucker in our midst!


Dominae

[ChrisiusMaximus]

I think youve got one lucky sucker in your midst, hes playing the save game posted by Mountain Sage in another thread which Ive tried and got completely different results with and Toe Truck has been playing and reporting on with yet again different results.

I might be wrong but I think preserve seed is on and I dont think you can change that option in a game once it has been commenced from the set up screens! correct me if Im wrong someone.

[vmxa1]

Well I am a long time out of the programming game, but it occures to me that a disassembler will allow one with the skills and patience to find the offset for the RNG and zap it.
Now saying this as no acusation, just an FYI. Like I said I have no idea if anything funny is involved, only that all the best players I know can not do it. Not even a reasonably skilled warmonger like myself. There fore I am curious and dubious. That does not make anything true, only suspious. Something like 5 archers getting a leader is beyond my understanding and is amazing, no matter how it was done.

[Tall Stranger]

I tend to agree. It's one thing to have an unbelievably lucky game or a freaky run of good luck. But my problem is that he has claimed, in other posts, to ALWAYS get unbelievably large numbers of leaders. As I pointed out in another thread, the chances of getting vast numbers of leaders and beating the AI EVERY TIME to a Wonder are astronomical. For example, even if you manage to generate a GL and build, say, the Pyramids, you will have to generate another one incredibly quickly to prevent an AI from switching to, say, the Great Lighthouse or Colossus and beating you to it.

The reality is that, over time, the odds that are hard-coded in the RNG reassert themselves. It's like playing the slots: you may hit it big once or twice, but play long enough and you walk away with just the shirt on your back (if that!).

The key question, fanes7, is: 1) do you reload your games if your elite unit does not generate a leader or if your veteran unit does not get promoted to elite? If so, that's fine. You own the game, so have fun with it. You do, however, have a moral responsibility to say so up front. Failure to do so is blatantly misleading, and risks giving bad advice to new players.

[vmxa1]

Don't forget that the original post was at deity games. Always getting all wonders at deity. I am doing good to get two ancient ones and I will surely not have a leader very often at that stage. Attacking soon enough to get a leader for the first wonder at deity is a serious risk. I have attacked a few time at first contact and those 12 warriors had better be well spread out. If 8 or 9 show up at your capitol, you will be doing a new game.
I get a flash of Pulp Fiction "thats a bold statement" or something like that.
Anyway, I feel a bit bad about jumping on him.

[Tall Stranger]

I had forgotten that he said he did this on Diety, which raises yet another serious question about his claim.

I'm also not happy about jumping on him, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. My concern is that he has yet to explain how he accomplishes this ungodly feat without reloading or somehow messing with the program or RNG.

That wouldn't be a big deal, but new players may foolishly follow his advice. I learned a lot about playing by lurking here. I'd hate for other new players to follow the "fanes7 method" at the Diety level, get frustrated by the resulting failure, and quit playing.

Until he explains how his approach is done, I have no real choice but to assume he reloads or otherwise tampers with the game. Again, that's his choice, but not one I think others should follow.

[xinyue]

I can predicate fanes7 using some cheating method to get so many leader in the game.

For non-military trait civ, it's rare to get promoted and leader, my experience with Egypt game only few leader generated.

I think fanes7 may consider the repeat save/load a game for get LUCK battle result is not a cheat, am I wrong?

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