Spite and Malice....

[UnOrthOdOx]

I suppose this is as good a place as any to post this.


What very well could be the motto of thise game:

"No fact is right or true only it is the persons interpretation of what they think they see or hear." - Clyde Lewis

[E_T]

First off, I've waited a while to read this thread, as my time has been very pressing to try to keep up with so many things...

Originally posted by donegeal
My take on Spite and Malice:
[snip]
It is quiet the contrary. .... I even have tremendous respect for my old nemisis, ET from the original SPDG. Him and I had banged heads constantly in that game. But the one thing I grew to understand, is that he knows the mechanics of the game as well as the coders of the game do. All the disagreements were game related and are behind me. I have even had a private conversation with a high ranking RP member telling him that I hold no true "Spite" or "Malice" towards him or any RP member

Thank you Donegeal.

As you might be aware (although some others won't be), Even after all of the attacks in the old SPDG, I had still wanted to have you work with me (as past of my team) and not against me. Having to explain things to you about some of the things that I was doing in that game, helped me to gather my arguments and make better presentations to the whole of the DG. And there were times that I found that you were right and I was wrong and that was one of the main reasons that I had continually asked you to work with me, even after some of the things that you had said there. I have NEVER felt that you were an enemy to me or the opposite.

And I still had a lot of things to learn, even now, I am still learning things about this game.

Thank you again.

E_T

[E_T]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
The problem is that most GS members try to validate every action they take as the high moral ground.

Morality is in the eye of the beholder. One persons morals are another's degredations. You can't expect everyone to agree with your points of veiws, because sometimes they just can't see it from that perspective. The theory of Relativity extends to the realm of social interations, but it's not accepted as being such.

E_T

[E_T]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
This old Hawk can say without any presumptions that the fact that there was a certain concentration of DIA members on RP it most certainly did play into his voting. At least as much as the Togas incident early in the game.

So, yes, I am guilty of targeting RP slightly more than other teams before the game started simply due to their members, though I would have laid that aside until the incident that happened IN this game. Beyond that I admit to deriving a little pleasure from being at war with the DIA members of RP.

I was never a Hawk nor a DIA member (or any other party). My philosophies ascribe to both and neither, but never one over the other. That's why I was able to go from DM to SMC in the old SPDG and was able to be successful in both.

E_T

[E_T]

Re: Tsk Tsk

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
WOW....

I have been lost to RL for over a month and a half... After reading this thread (It took 2 days to get through it), I think I am going to stay there a bit longer. It is a shame that folks need to bicker back and forth (so viciously) over something that doesn't really matter.

What have we all learned from all this?

I have learned that Civ is a Machiavellian game and as long as folks want to play the game emotionally (that is ...allow it to affect their actual emotional state), there will be interpersonal problems to contend with and the emotions will drasticly affect diplomacy.

I have also learned that in a forum..."No matter how careful you are, what people say is different than what they mean which is different from what is heard by others"

These days I have FAR more importent things to be doing, so I regret not doing my share here, but in all reality, does any one of us really need this ****e?

Remember...
Don't take life so seriously. You'll never get out of it alive.

Mss

/me nods and applauds MSS's post

Yes, I was first shocked and amazed, when I had first started learning of people leaving teams ( not just the one) because of they way that they took the things that were being said on the public forum a bit too seriously.

It then had became a form of sadness, because I know that they will be missed, for whatever reason.

Then a form of pity, for those people aren't able to put these things aside, not let them bother then and allow themselves to move on.

Are these observations cold, somewhat. Are they true, as far as I can see, yes. What can we do about it, well, really nothing, because it's up to them to see those facts for themselves. All we can try to do is to point them out, help them to see, but in the end. it's up to them.

Yes, Life is too short and there are more important things in life to worry and fret about, but this game shouldn't be one of them... atleast not on the scale that we are seeing.

E_T

[E_T]

And with all of that being said (and finally being caught up in this thread), I can say that this is the strangest game that I have ever been envolved in. It's been interesting, it's been fun at times and sometimes, not so fun. But it's not been entirely booring, either.

As for the flame wars, well if that didn't go on, this public forum would almost be dead. People say that they don't like the flames, don't like being called (through whatever perceived means) various bad things that they feel that they aren't. Some want (or EXPECT that it should be) this forum to be a social interaction so that they can still be freinds with the other players and are hurt when it isn't. But, if it's hurtful to them, they still comeback and subject themselves to more, until they can't take it any more and leave for good. Some of them have even left the site, from what I have come to understand, because they didn't like the way that they were treated by their "freinds".

People, this is a game. All of this flameful interaction that has happened, not only in this war, but the other wars in the past, ARE going to be a part of it. AND, some of it, is part of the war, because Phycological Warfare is STILL a form of war. And don't tell me that the smarter of the people who have been posting, in the past, haven't realized this fact (at least in your subconscious). Because it's what has been happening, to some extent. And yes, there have been casualties, maybe unintended, but nontheless casualties.

Being able to realize all of these things is what is needed to try to make this all fun again.

And before people get into another multiplayer DG, they have to realize that these things are going to happen and decide for themselves as to if they will be o.k. with those facts. If not, then it's sad to say, but then they don't belong here.

I think I've said all I have to say on this matter, now, lets kill some Riders and Ansars....

E_T

[Panzer32]

E_T

[Master Zen]

minus the very last sentence

[Theseus]

E_T, you actually just brought up the FIRST new concept (or said it in a new way) to cause me to materially respond in this thread.

Here's the thing:

It is not just a game. This, the PTWDG, to me, is not just a game.

And no, of course, it is not RL, either.

Damn, what a conundrum!

I speak for GS (or just me), at least. We, as individual RL human beings, have chosen Civ3 as one of our main passions in life for the last 1.5+ years. We have chosen to invest our time in not only playing, but in sharing our experiences and teaching each other and others what we have learned. We like to think that we have participated in creating the best such community in that light, and there are a number of principles and mores that have been inherently part of that effort. We've also created some strong bonds, friendships, and a common language along the way.

I care about every single bit... a lost production shield, or a mis-move of a Galley, gives me a heart-ache.

Call me crazy.

I know all the teams, and the team members, do not feel the way I do...

So, is it a game?

Sure.

Is it RL?

No, but I *CARE*. Civ3 is part of MY REAL LIFE. And 'poly is part of MY REAL LIFE.

I know that the members of GS who have walked away feel the same.

So, ipso facto, for some of us 'poly and this the DGs are REAL LIFE...

Settle down, OK?

[Harovan]

Sure it's a part of my life. It's the entertainment I seek after a long day of work. Although there are other options. Like having a beer with friends, a nice walk over the hills or an evening with the family. As long as it's an interesting challenge with friends, I'm game. If it turns into a trolling and flaming contest, then sorry, my spare time is too precious to participate in this mess. And yes, I disagree with some of the chief trolls here. It's not "just a game, so take it". It's my free time, which can be either well spent or wasted. As long as it's well spent, I'm in. Doesn't feel so, lately.

[E_T]

Yes, It is (and has been) a part of our lifes, otherwise we would not be here. But when people can't take a little (or in some cases, a lot) of stupid sillyness that is cloaked in trash talking and let their emotions get involed, post those emotions, which then gets someone else going and they post, etc, etc, etc.....

It's when that first person lets it get to them and not let it go as what it's really meant to be, then that's were the problem comes from, and gets passed around.

[a simplified example]
It's like getting into a school food fight, it's fun at first, until they start throwing the plates, silverware, glasses and then someone gets hurt, sometimes seriously. But that wouldn't have happened if the people who had started throwing the plates, silverware and such, had just kept to the fun part of a simple food fight and then no one would have gotten hurt.

In a way, that's what's happening here. And the thing is, that like, in a Groundhog day kind of way, the food fight will always take place. And it's up to us to have fun and laugh while we are getting plastered with todays menu, instead of feeling that the spagetti that was just dump on our heads is too much of an affront and we start slinging plates and such around (and others start to join in because they were hit with that first plate).

It's not up to the other person to make it fun for us, it's up to ourselves to keep it fun for us all.

E_T

[Master Zen]

I just want to ask a question, very respectfully, no flame or sarcasm intented, to the GS members.

In my months here and from what I've heard, I've seen flames shot back and forth between every team towards practically every other (perhaps sparing Lego since they have yet to get involved fully in any conflict).

However, I seem to notice that the people who have most been offended by it and have left have been certain GS members regardless of the fact that GS hasn't been the only team victim of that sort of thing.

I'd like to think that this is because most GS members seem to behave rather professionally in this site as a whole. Most of them I rarely see outside the demo game, general or strat forums. Most of their posts are game related, and from what I've heard, handle their teams affairs very meticulously and down to almost perfection.

However, on the other hand we have another 5 teams perhaps don't act so professionally though with no less desire to win. The way I look at it, is like a grown up playing with a bunch of kids and who doesn't find all the fighting and screaming so fun.

Now, I agree totally with Theseus on how this is more than just a game to us, but I also agree with E_T's approach. This might seem contradictory, in fact, I think I've condradicted myself more than once saying similar things, but there is a bit of truth in both: on one hand, it's an activity that we dedicate a huge amount of time (dare I say most of our spare time some of us), but in the end it is but a game for one simple reason: there are many things that should for any reason end up being a necessity, we would put (not without some sacrifice) before the demo games or civ in general.

so, my question is, is GS's professional take of this game discouraging some of its members when faced with the less serious approach of others? In that case some of us have a share of the blame in all this by thinking that GS would take the non-seriousness like we do, but on the other hand GS should also understand that (most) others are taking this, no matter their desire to win, as just a game ultimately.

[Harovan]

You see I still bother to read your posts.

Originally posted by Master Zen
The way I look at it, is like a grown up playing with a bunch of kids and who doesn't find all the fighting and screaming so fun.

That nails it perfectly. Perhaps it's so, because some of our more active members (like Theseus, notyoueither and myself) aren't teens or twens anymore and have other standards about what's still fun and what did already cross the line. May be I'm wrong, but at least for myself it's true.

As I already said a couple of times, I left (or let's say better: reduced my level of participation) not because I'm offended or insulted or anything. I just can think of a crapload of other things much more entertaining and relaxing than to participate in trolls and name calling. Doesn't matter at all if it's meant serious or not.

[Shiber]

Well put Sir Ralph.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Theseus
E_T, you actually just brought up the FIRST new concept (or said it in a new way) to cause me to materially respond in this thread.

Here's the thing:

It is not just a game. This, the PTWDG, to me, is not just a game.

And no, of course, it is not RL, either.

Damn, what a conundrum!

I speak for GS (or just me), at least. We, as individual RL human beings, have chosen Civ3 as one of our main passions in life for the last 1.5+ years. We have chosen to invest our time in not only playing, but in sharing our experiences and teaching each other and others what we have learned. We like to think that we have participated in creating the best such community in that light, and there are a number of principles and mores that have been inherently part of that effort. We've also created some strong bonds, friendships, and a common language along the way.

I care about every single bit... a lost production shield, or a mis-move of a Galley, gives me a heart-ache.

Call me crazy.

I know all the teams, and the team members, do not feel the way I do...

So, is it a game?

Sure.

Is it RL?

No, but I *CARE*. Civ3 is part of MY REAL LIFE. And 'poly is part of MY REAL LIFE.

I know that the members of GS who have walked away feel the same.

So, ipso facto, for some of us 'poly and this the DGs are REAL LIFE...

Settle down, OK?

Theseus,

Nice post .. however could you please define what you mean by "Game".

To me, the PTWDG Game includes everything.
Yes .. the lost shields/wrong moves/ tactics and such..

But for me, it also includes the trash threads, diplomacy, taunting, negotiating, claiming of foul deeds and counterclaims of whether spaniards take baths or not.

To me.. this is all part of the I call "The Game".

Many from GS (from what I understand) do not like this human element of the game.. the trash threads, humor, and taunts...and have since left the game.
I personally find this disappointing. Sir Ralph has the right attitude that I respect ..He doesnt like it so he limits his time reading the trash threads.
We all have our opinions.

If there are people like yourself who prefer to stick with the study of the game mechanics and squeezing every bit of efficiency from every turn, then why is it not possible to do this and not read the public forum ?
Set me and Master Zen on ignore ?
Or simply not read any thread that starts with "The Glory of Manifestos" or "Spite & Malice"

Theseus, I respect your comments and hope that I have not misinterpreted what you are trying to say.
If so .. I appoligise in advance.

For you .. it is more than a game..fair enough.
But for me..it is only a game.

Regs