Spite and Malice....

[Velociryx]

....it's the name of a card game I used to play in college when I was taking a break from Poker.

What follows is personal observation....nothing more. Make of it what you will....mostly this was written so as to give GoW and ND a place to rant at me, since they seem quite....fixated on my two letters.

It seems to me though, that the thread's title is also at the core of the matter here.

I give to you, some quotes from Spain's enemies, and let their words speak for them.

From Hot_Enamel:
And to GS .. Be aware.. That there will never, ever, be peace between our nations. Not while you have any presence on Bob. We will fight to the last city and soldier, to ensure you can never be in a dominant position. Even if it means our final destruction.

From UnOrthOdOx:
make no mistake. While I personally went into this war committed to remove RP from the game, I would much prefer now to defeat GS

And these are but two, drawn from threads bearing letters not addressed to them and theirs.

There are, no doubt, a great many other examples in the numerous threads here.

And so, by virtue of these two quotes, and by the plainly visible attitude that has been displayed for quite some time now, it becomes clear what the objectives of the machinations of GoW and ND are.

Logic is irrelevant.

Reason is irrelevant.

The current game situation is irrelevant.

Even their own doom would be irrelevant (as members of those teams have so clearly illustrated above).

Their only goal is to defeat GS. To beat the "strat guys."

The game specific situations don't matter one whit to them.

Doesn't matter if they, through their own misguided efforts or mismanagement of Empire knock themselves out of the running, so long as they get to try and beat GS.

How sad....how empty the game must be for them. It could be so rich, and so filled with possibility, and yet, for this singular focus to fill them with such hatred.

Mystifying.

It also explains much of the tension that GS has felt with various teams expressing these same sentiments as the game has developed thus far, for you see, we're not playing to defeat YOU....we're playing the GAME. We're playing and responding to game events, and team makeup and membership is irrelevant to that. There is ample evidence, however, that at least some other teams, are playing a "different" game. One which has nothing to do with the game itself, and everything to do with dragging external factors into the game and focusing on those, and the quotes above bear this out plainly.

Historically, there has never been an instance of a nation willing to fight and die to the last man to prevent another nation from being the more dominant force, and yet, this is what we face. Not because of any game-driven event, but simply because of the makeup of the team.

Very sad, that.

This is not a whine or a rant....and my words here are not spoken in anger or frustration....simply a statement of the way things are. You will, no doubt continue to play from the perspective of "Death to the strat guys" and we will continue to play the game at hand.

Just....an observation.

-=Vel=-

[vondrack]

I disagree.

I strongly disagree with the statement that GS has become the target of another team just because they'd want "death to the strat guys". I consider that statement so unfair that I feel the urge to respond despite the original post not being aimed at me or my team.

I'm following the public forum very closely and chatting with a lot of people involved in PtWDG. Out of my own experience, every PtWDG team has the reputation and goodwill based upon the deeds and behaviour IN THIS VERY GAME. The fact that GS is mostly composed of the strat forum guys is irrelevant here - to the extent that the reputation & goodwill of GS as a team in this game is very different from the reputation & goodwill of the individual members of GS. Don't ask me how that is possible, but that's what I feel.

I can see a pretty good logic behind what GoW says, even though it may be difficult to understand for people that may want to play as efficiently as possible.

One team (GS) seriously pissed off another team (GoW). Why? Doesn't really matter, it simply happened. That's what matters. The game for GoW is now to fight those who pissed them off until their (GoW's) last man dies or until you (GS) are driven back to the sea (or whatever it was they said they'd do to you). That's a pretty good logic and sounds like fun, IMO (sounds like it is a matter of honour for them).

This is a game. NOT the real life. I will grant you that in the real life, a nation would hardly commit to a war of this kind... but the beauty of a game lies in the fact that you can do things you would not do in your RL, even if you wanted to - like fighting someone you dislike/hate until your last man dies.

From what I know - and I am pretty sure I am right - no team entered this game with a set goal of defeating GS (read: specifically GS). Most teams believed they would be able to face them as equals, even if they felt respect to well-known names. If that has changed since then and a team has sworn to fight you "till death", it must have something to do with this game. Just like the fact that RP has become the target of an alliance hardly anybody would expect to emerge.

[Velociryx]

Greetings, Vondrack!

I knew when I posted the above that the response to it would be overwhelming disagreement, nonetheless, I felt it was something that needed to be said, because that feeling is undeniably "out there." I know for a fact that at least one major in-game event was driven by the very desire I mentioned above, and there's tons of circumstantial evidence pointing to a variety of others.

A quick browse through the history of threads in this very forum reveals a pattern of thought that would seem to bear this line of thinking out.

I too, follow the threads here closely (although I have only recently chosen to come back and post with regularity), and our in-game experience has been decidedly different from the one you describe. The point has been driven home continually and repeatedly that we are to be viewed with suspicion and/or targeted if we falter even once, not because we're "The Egyptians" who did thus-and-so in the ancient past, but because we're "the strat guys" (a term for us that I heard somewhere here, btw).

And, that's okay.

If that's the way it's going to be....if our destruction would be viewed as a crowning feather in someone's cap, there's certainly nothing that we can say or do to change it.....we just....have to be all the more careful, that's all.

It should be noted though, that our team has a lot of members in it. Several are and have been prolific writers in the strat forum. Several have not, but given the general sense of hostility that I have sensed in the public fora from almost day one (before there were any game-driven events to base such hostility from, btw), I figured it was high time to shine the spotlight on it.

I don't mind losing.

Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last, so that's not it at all.

I just thought it was time to put the cards on the ol' table.

There's a perception that GS is "difficult to deal with." Yes...given our perception of the prevailing environment, I think that not unsurprising.

But, having written the first post knowing the response would be overwhelming disagreement, again I say that the words were not written in anger or frustration....not written as a whine or a rant. This is hardly a sudden or new revelation for us, but it DOES mark the first time I can recall ever having seen it talked about openly, and that's progress of a sort.

-=Vel=-

[vondrack]

If your follow-up post is meant to say "I can hear you, but I insist on what I said in the first post and think you are wrong", then... well, what can I say?

I insist on what I said, too.

The principal disagreement between us seems to be that you associate the fact there is a team (or teams) hostile to GS with the fact that many/most GS members come from the strat forum - you imply sort of a "bias", an underlying, since-turn-one-present desire or goal to beat or humiliate those that are supposed to be "the best".

I am convinced that it's not true.

And that's probably where we will have to agree to disagree.

[Velociryx]

Most likey, that is true, Master Vondrack (the agree to disagree part, I mean ).

I know however, that I am not the only member of GS who has felt that very thing, and in fact, we have lost team members because of it. Smart folks. Talented folks.

Perhaps the argument could be made that they (and other members who did not leave), were all drawing the same misguided conclusion (delusion?), but....I just can't buy that. There's a REASON we've seen members leave the team, and I do not believe it has anything to do with delusions. Process of elimination and my own observations brought me to the conclusion I reached.

No matter. It was something on my brain, and I wanted to get it out in the open, because above all else, and even in the face of overwhelming disagreement....even when it is unpopular to do so, I will always be honest and forthright in my positions and opinions. I believe that's one thing that makes me a fairly effective advisor. Don't know, but that's my guess.

-=Vel=-

[BigFree]

If GS was not "marked" at the begining of the game, it is clear, by the comments of GoW memeber's, that they are now. In fact, I've been told by GoW member's that they'd rather see Lego win than to see GS win. Now what would be the reason for that? Personal grudges? They like the Lego icon better? It doesn't matter; the fact remains that they said it. I've even been told that they would like to see GS fall because GS is viewed, by them, as "arrogant." Yes, maybe GS may seem arrogant to some; maybe they just seem confident to others. Hell, I'd be a little confident too; they have every right to be.

While some of my teammates may feel the same, I'll give the usual disclaimer about this being my own personal experience and opinion in this matter.

[Velociryx]

BigFree!

-=Vel=-

[Aggie]

The dislike between some members of GOW and GS comes not from a preexisitng dislike, but from what they did with accepting cities from RP. This was seen by many on my team as an "internal" Bob dispute. That sence of betrayal has lead many to became very hostile with GS. I felt all teams had about equal talents and location and luck would have a huge impact. Now I will admit among some, there was a feeling that GS was the favorite coming in to this game. This respect for the GS team(and they are a very worthy opponent) has actually HELPED GS in this game, by causing otherwise intelligent people to hesitate. As we all know hesistation can be fatal( and was for Vox in the VOX/GS war). Personally I always assume my opponent is going to make the best moves possible so I don't have this problem and just play normally. With my humble abilities hopefully I can use the opposite advantage of being underestimated.
Aggie

[Theseus]

Haven't been posting much lately... RL woes.

I stayed out of the flame wars of the last several months, but I certainly read them all.

I am sorry to say, vondrack, but I've certainly felt the animosity... not just based on in-game issues, but who we are and, yes, how we sometimes communicate. It has been much discussed. And Vel is quite right to point out, that some of our best friends, team mates, and players have dropped out fo the game because of it.

But, hey, so be it. The currents and emotions that come with this kind of game are new to all of us, and will not always be to everyone's liking. Let's remember that most of us got addicted to Civ as solo players.

But I'm glad that Vel put the issue out there.

And vondrack, you are right TOO, btw. This is a game, and if people want to undertake course of action that are not exactly what RL would be like, well, fine, have at it!!

[I've been waiting to say this since the PTW DG was a gleam in someone's eye (Beta, I think?)]:

There can be only one.

[Theseus]

And I just saw the BEST quote on the screen after I posted:

"There are no manifestos quite like cannons and musketry."

- The Duke of Wellington

... or War Chickens!!

[Velociryx]

Aggie,

The main problem with your statement, is that I too, have heard the same comments that BigFree has heard, and I heard them LOOOOONG before landing on Bob was ever even a thought.

As to that "sense of betrayal" - a couple of points.

There is no "internal Bob" just like there was no "internal Stormia" (there is now, since we are in full command of the continent) - there's a continent with three unique, disparate cultures on it. Two of the three decided to carve the odd man out up.

Your neighbor one street over decided he'd rather not watch your little block party from afar, and decided not to stand quietly by while you and your buddy vandalized your neighbor's home.

Winding back the clock a bit, and using your own lingo for a moment, it didn't seem to be much of a betrayal to GoW when they violated our earlier agreement by landing sufficient force on our continent to take one of our cities while we were in the midst of an "internal" matter of our own....where was the GoW sense of outrage at such betrayal then, I wonder? Essentially, your argument is that what's good for the goose ISN'T good for the gander, eh? In other words, it's perfectly acceptable for you to threaten our holdings, but when the shoe's on the other foot....that's obviously no good. Ahem....right then.

Further, and the point conveniently overlooked, is that the cities in question were GIVEN (I prefer to think of it as a long-term loan) We did not land forces to take them--as some other folks attempted to do on our continent earlier This (accepting gifted cities) should not be an affront to GoW OR ND, because the cities in question WEREN'T YOURS?! GoW and ND have no authority whatsoever to tell Spain what she can or cannot do with her own holdings, or was there some secret Bobian accord which the rest of the teams were unaware?

Why does it matter? Because you'd rather die to the last man and give the game to anyone else in order to see that GS does not gain regional dominance. Forget trying to win, right? Just make sure GS doesn't gain regional dominance.

Back to Spain, our assistance was requested. And who can blame Spain for looking for help? Outnumbered two to one, facing two civs in their golden ages, and staring extinction in the face....because they're playing the game….because they’re playing for the win, they sought help.

We answered that call for help, and (no big surprise here), Spain's enemies didn't like it much. We rained on their "Let's Carve up Spain" party.

Good.

-=Vel=-

PS: With regards to the first line of your post, however, I couldn't disagree more.

Take a peek at a GoW team member's quote (in my initial post). Any time you get a guy talking about fighting to his own extinction....not to win the game (which is the goal of those for whom playing the game at hand is the primary focus), but to simply ensure that a specific someone loses....no, not even loses, just to ensure that that specific someone does not gain regional "dominance" (which is a far cry from an assurance of victory)....that's definitely NOT playing the game at hand, but falling back to some other motive.

Examining the possible list of "other motives" and given the current climate I mentioned, it's not hard to put two and two together....

[Arnelos]

For what's it's worth, some members of GoW have displayed a considerable level of personal animosity toward multiple teams which has lead them to make some interesting moves and even miscalculations.

The personal animosity between some members of GoW and RP is very real and while much of the leaderships on either side may at times be level-headed with each other, the members on each team with an emotional hatred of the other team has an impact on team policy because this is, afterall, a democracy game.

If what Aggie claims (and I've heard from MZ and Unortho as well) is true, then the GS-GoW animosity is a perfect example of GoW.... they grossly miscalculated when they became fixated on the ND/GoW -vs- RP war as an internal Bobian matter and rather than acknoweldging that they should consider the possibility and reconsidering their options, instead discounted it and pushed foward.

When it became clear that they had miscalculated the situation, rather than realizing this gross miscalculation was their own error and they should have known better, they instead projected their frustrations against GS and burned as many bridges to GS as they had already done with RP. GS became as much of an object of hatred as RP and some level of that animosity is indeed very real.

That said, GoW's animosity toward GS pre-dated GS agreeing to ally with RP. It dates a good bit further back and has been expressed in public chatrooms on Apolyton by members of GoW: They do not wish to see GS win the game because they perceive GS as "arrogant". In fact, one even stated he would like to do ANYTHING to prevent GS from winning the game.

When RP started gifting cities to GS (the first sign that we were closely allied), GoW BEGGED us not continue gifting cities to GS because (in their words) GS winning the game and the resulting arrogant bragging GoW would have to suffer was something they'd rather not suffer.

Here we see the two principle aspects that most define GoW:

1. If GoW plans to do not go off properly, the frustration concerning this is projected upon another team, which is then on GoW's ****list. Furthermore, some in GoW seem to assume that any team on THEIR ****list is so strongly disliked by everyone ELSE that arguments concerning ganging up against them are valid in-and-of-themselves and need no elaboration... because, of course, everyone hates certain teams as much as GoW.

2. GoW is in this game not so much for victory itself as for bragging rights and preventing others from being able to lord their bragging rights over GoW. Since GS is perceived (and has been for some time) by GoW as the "arrogant" team, they have long feared what would happen if GS won the game and used their bragging rights to lord their victory over GoW. GoW is also out for victory, for its own bragging rights, but seems willing to settle for other options that would still give it some measure of bragging rights.

ND, on the other hand, is altogether different from this. ND seems far more practical and coldly logical. They're attacking RP Team because its clearly in their best interests to do so, especially if GoW is eager to help out. ND would have a great difficulty winning the game if trapped in their portion of Bob with GoW and RP Team still holding their respective lands... ND simply had to take over one if not both and RP's lands were more attractive (AND GoW was willing to help out). ND seems to be in this game to win - period. They'll buy whatever friends they need to (GoW) while on the way to the top.

I think ND's philosophy is clearly superior to GoW's, but it seems that ND has made miscalculations just like every other team, just fewer of them.

[Panzer32]

I agree with Vondrack's position, the second post in the thread.

Myself, I have no personal grudges against GS and respect their members highly. However, I do have a grudge in game against the Gathering Storm team. Call this irrational, unreasonable, so be it.

As for us/anyone having an initial attitude of 'we must get GS', I completely and utterly disagree. This sort of attitude was developed in GoW after the city gifting fiasco.

[Aggie]

As I said Vel, there was some that saw GS as the Favorite to win early(I didn't) and that had an impact. I'll admit that that caused some to want to beat them. If this feeling caused some of your teamates to leave I am sorry for that and regret that fact. However, as has been mentioned this is a game and need to be viewed as such. Look at anypost I've made and you'll not see a disparaging word to the other side. I've always stressed that we can attack in game actions but should not attack the people. We are here to have fun, no more no less. I myself though disappointed by GS getting those cities see no great betrayal. Gs was strictly trying to win. But that action has really rankled quite a few of us. However, such quotes as you mentioned are more rhetoric than reality. WE WANT TO WIN. As emperor I would like to win also, for a matter of fact much of the battle plan was mine. I made it without malice to RP, they just happened to be in the way to our winning. Right now the war with GS is also just another way to win. If there was a fair peace that increased ours(and ND's) chance of winning we'd consider such a proposal. For example if GS wanted to give RP the old Vox area(after all, until a FP is there, they are effectively useless), there is a good chance such a deal would be allowed by us. Obviously peace with GS would be far more difficult since it requires removing themselves from BOB and I don't see you doing that and I don't see us allowing you to stay. Thus the REAL reason for the war(at least in my eyes). But like I sdaid, in my eyes(i can't speak for all obviously) it is nothing personal.
Aggie

[Theseus]

A couple of comments:

* No RL bridges burned with any one, for me at least. Although things have gotten heated at times, I understand and respect that everyone has their own rightful view. And I've been *damn* impressed at the quality of play and strategy / tactics exhibited, which is the measure I consider the most.

* In-game grudges, vendettas, and the like? Damn tootin'!! Bring'em on!!Speaking of which, the StormHawk Party will soon make its views known.