Letter of JEFF BRIGGS to the CIV COMMUNITY

[ChrisiusMaximus]

Have you lot got nothing better to do! no job to go to? no women to satisfy? no kids to shout at?

I think all of you in this debate have repeatedly stated your points with no real impact on each other, maybe nuff said eh.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Velociryx
As to patching.....total agreement. Everybody patches, and why the heck not? With the 'net, it's easy.

Maybe too easy.

Would it be fair to say though, that there is a difference between patching to FINISH (that is to say, to bring a product up to the minimum described specs) vs. patching to enhance (that is to say, adding new features, or changing/improving old ones)? Fair to say that there's a fundamentally different mindset at work there?

Companies do not patch working products. If it worked flawlessly out of the box for everyone, there would never be a patch, or a free enhancement. Enhancements are mainly for expansions, or the next version. Lucky us they were listening and enhanced while they patched the last time around. There is no assurance they will do that again.

[SpencerH]

I think the most damning aspect of this after sales patching mentality, is the effects on customers who may not have internet access. How are they supposed to fix a game that has serious problems out of the box (both CIV3 and PtW)?

[WarpStorm]

Well, when I had to get a patch for civ2 (crashed out of box), Microprose sent me a disk with it on it. I'm sure that Infogrames would do the same.

[player1]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Then the answer would be no. Not out of the box.

Yes...with patching, but that's not the same thing.

Different question.

-=Vel=-

So we agreed.

MP was no good enough with 1.01f & 1.04f
1.14f patch came just 3 weeks after relase and fixed most of problems.

So there is realy nothing more to discuss.
Since all people who haven't bought the game unit now, will get "promised experince" (in most cases), since they will get the patches (even a casual gamers, since that MP, and word spreads quickly).

P.S.
Nothing new in gaming industry.



P.P.S.
Has this turned to flame war, just beacuse some think that 1.04f MP was "broken", while other think that it's just "not perfect"?

That's pretty much subjective thing, so I guess we shall stop discussiong about has game out of box had "broken" or "non-perfect" MP.

It's not important anyway, since NOBODY is playing out-of-box MP if there IS patch to download.

[player1]

Originally posted by SpencerH
I think the most damning aspect of this after sales patching mentality, is the effects on customers who may not have internet access. How are they supposed to fix a game that has serious problems out of the box (both CIV3 and PtW)?

Good point for Civ3, but NOT good point for PtW.
Since if somebody wants to play Internet MP he NEEDS Internet access.

And only MP was "not perfect"/"broken" (choose your word),
with original PtW.

Only PtW SP doesn't need Interenet access, and it's workiong pretty well without patches.

Exept Hotseat, which did need 1.04f patch at least.

[BottleOfPills]

In Defense of Vel

This is in response to "ItsNotYou"s post several spots up.

Criticizing Vel and a statement about PTW working out of the box, working for some people?

It'sNotYou - Name One Single Person On this Planet that Played One average Multiplayer Game through to completion with the product out of the box. Name one?

You can't. It didn't allow for it didn't work nada. As far as I'm concerned it still doesn't. My system requirements says something about a 28.8 modem. I have yet to read a post from anyone playing a successful game with anything other than broadband. How come "Broadband" isn't in the requirements for the game?

I'm with Vel and most of his points seem solid to me. The game should be playable out of the box. This game was marketed as "multiplayer", hell the title even suggests it. "PLAY THE WORLD".

This was a scam put on the civ fans as far as I'm concerned. Thankfully they've fixed it for the broadband people.

I'm Out like my hairline.

[Velociryx]

NYE....I agree with you.

"companies do not patch working products."

was your phrasing, and

It is not, I don't believe, standard policy to patch a piece of software if there are no problems *with* that software.

was mine.

Both make the same point.

Where we differ in opinion is this:

I contend that the implication inherent IN those statements is as follows:

a) companies do not patch working products

so

b) if a company patches, then something must not be working

which means, in my mind that

c) Given that there are and have been patches for both PTW and Civ3 (and more than once at that), this leads me to the conclusion that the products were not working as described

But...this apparently is a sore subject, and to even bring it up seems to invite flames, so yes....I will happily simply agree to disagree on the point.

On a completely unrelated note though, I have noticed that since I began working on Candle'Bre, my opinions on the quality and completeness of games has changed remarkably.

This is the standard that *I expect* to be held to for Candle'Bre.

I WANT YOU to hold my feet to the fire if what I describe is not what you get.

And on another unrelated note....this is gonna sound really odd, but....since I've been working on CB (and playing an active role in creating all the models for the game), I find myself creating models for....pretty much everything.

Last night, after making my last post, and before drifting off to sleep, I created a "degrees of brokenness" model, which looks something like this (for quantifying "how broke is broke."):

(Weight of Feature Importance in a given release) * (estimated # users impacted by non-functional or damaged feature/total user base)

Such that, say...if Coastal Fortresses aren't working right, but the main thrust of the patch or expansion is MP, then it might carry a weight of 0.02, but other features (MP for example), might be weighted as high as 0.75, which would provide at least a guide for the relative importance of stuff, and for prioritization.

-=Vel=-

PS: Candle'Bre enhancement packs will be free, btw. Fate card expansions, scenario packs....stuff like that....free. Patches issued to expand the functionality of the game.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Well, when I had to get a patch for civ2 (crashed out of box), Microprose sent me a disk with it on it. I'm sure that Infogrames would do the same.

That may work for one patch, but there were 4 patches for Civ3.

Originally posted by player 1

Good point for Civ3, but NOT good point for PtW.
Since if somebody wants to play Internet MP he NEEDS Internet access.

Thats true

And only MP was "not perfect"/"broken" (choose your word),
with original PtW.

But its clearly advertised as MP and thats what most people bought it for. AFAIK, even with the patch it's really only for MP for broadband users. If that was a requirement for MP it should have said so. Some people would have been annoyed, but at least they would have known what they were buying.

Look at the minimum hardware specs for CIV3.

IBM PC or 100% compatible computer
Pentium II-300 MHz or faster processor
Windows 95, 98, ME, 2000, or XP
32 MB RAM
500 MB available hard drive space
4X or faster CD-ROM drive
SVGA video card (capable of 1024x768x16-bit color) *
Windows 95 or 98 compatible sound card*

Is there anyone who thinks this game could really be played and enjoyed with a machine like this?

What this really seems to be is a question of 'truth in advertising'.

[WarpStorm]

I have 3 sets of disks for Master of Magic patches straight form Microprose. In those days registering your tiltes was actually worth something.

[WarpStorm]

Re: In Defense of Vel

Originally posted by BottleOfPills
It'sNotYou - Name One Single Person On this Planet that Played One average Multiplayer Game through to completion with the product out of the box. Name one?

I did. NYE did. As did a few people I could name.

[WarpStorm]

As far as it working modems, I played PBEM games against people using modems. Last time I checked we were in fact playing a non-broadband MP game.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Velociryx
If the product works for some, but not for others, then I would say the product is....broken.

Fine, but in that case nearly all games are broken. Even something like Civ2, that works perfectly on every computer I have, does not work on some that have sufficient system reqs. If the requirement for a non-broken game is that it works on 100% of supposedly compliant systems... I would say that CB is pretty likely to be broken when it comes out.

[Velociryx]

Given the state of the industry, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to hear that most of the games out there are broken.

If it is true that CB is broken in *any* way, even tho we'll be GIVING the game away, don't kid yourself....we'll catch every bit as much hell for each problem as the companies that charge sixty bucks for a game. Probably even moreso, now that I have committed an act of digital blasphemy by stating that a company not in charge of its own deadlines and pushed for time, released an unfinished product. (not surprisingly, under those conditions), but as I said earlier....I *expect* to be held accountable. I expect to be held to that kind of standard. If I say it ain't broke and it is, then I want people to let me have it with both barrels.

And....they will.

-=Vel=-

[player1]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Look at the minimum hardware specs for CIV3.

IBM PC or 100% compatible computer
Pentium II-300 MHz or faster processor
Windows 95, 98, ME, 2000, or XP
32 MB RAM
500 MB available hard drive space
4X or faster CD-ROM drive
SVGA video card (capable of 1024x768x16-bit color) *
Windows 95 or 98 compatible sound card*

Is there anyone who thinks this game could really be played and enjoyed with a machine like this?

What this really seems to be is a question of 'truth in advertising'.

Hey!

My machine is almost EXACTLY like that (its 333Mhz Celeron with 64MB of RAM).

And it plays perfectly well (if you don't use maps greater then standard or more then 8 players).

Although loading a game can take some time (1-2 minutes) in modern era.

And, it's key to turn OFF the music, since otherwise it's unplayable. (MP3 decoding slowsgame down)