Letter of JEFF BRIGGS to the CIV COMMUNITY

[BigBen]

First time poster here. I played CTP back in the day, and have seen countless hours of my life sucked away by Civ3. Actually, now that PTW tells you how long each game lasts, the hours aren't countless anymore, just embarrasing. As are my scores, but I digress.

I just wanted to make an outsider's observation on the community. I've come from a year long obsession with the BBS for a totally unrelated game (Motor City Online), and am struck by some similarities.

1. The developers will never do enough in the eyes of some
2. The developers will do no wrong in the eyes of others.
3. These two groups will have the same arguments regardless of the game, developer, community, state of the world, etc.... For example, there's always someone saying the developer is near folding due to their ineptitude, and there's always someone else saying that everything will be fixed in the next patch.

This biggest difference in the Civ3 community seems to be in its grammar and vocabulary. No one here has said that Frixas SuXX0rz in the threads that I have read. Yet. I'm not holding my breath.

The gaming industry has established fast paced, "release and patch" pattern that will last as long as we all keep dishing out money for nearly done games (which I will keep doing, as the alternative is to not game at all).

We could save a lot of time if we consolidated all complaints and defenses of the way devlopers handle games to a single unified BBS, and leave Apolyton to what it does best, which is provide a dynamic, wonderfully deep, discussion of, and improvement of a game which is good enough to stir this many emotions in this many people. I mean, any game that generates this much discussion has to be pretty good. They don't get this hot 'n heavy on the Mario Cart boards....

Sorry, terrible tangents. Great game, glad for the patches (and the public statement).

BigBen

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by woody
Perhaps you should take off your fanboy glasses and see that not everyone who criticizes Firaxis hates Civ. (That was a shot, but clearly you deserve the favor in return.)

Do people have reasons for criticizing Firaxis apart from Civ3? I don't see how the two are distinguished, unless there is some festering hate leftover from SMAC or Simgolf.

My point is: if you don't have a problem with Civ3 (as you state), then why do you have a problem with firaxis? Why do you care what they do or say? I don't. I don't "know" firaxis apart from their games, nor do I care. If I like the product, it doesn't matter to me if the producer is an *******., I dont' think about them while I'm playing the game. I don't think "damn that jeffrey morris for blah blah blah." If I did that, then why would I waste my time playing at all, i have better things to do than that.

I just want a game thats enjoyable, which for me PTW is. Call me names for that opinion or whatever, I don't care. I'm going to enjoy myself with a game now while you continue to complain, who's getting the better deal?

[Cian McGuire]

Cian McGuire you are correct, that is what I get for doing things so late at night or early in the morning.

No worries

[gaikokujin]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet


I hold the opposite viewpoint.

They owe us absolutely nothing. If we don't like their games we don't buy them.

A lesson in logic is required here.

Clearly this is not true, and further, is contradicted by Firaxis' own apologetic tone in the message that began this thread. "If we don't like their games we don't buy them." would seem to imply that, if we bought the game (and, therefore, supplied them with revenue), we must like the game, both before and after the purchase.

But the real issue is, having bought the game for multiplayer over the internet, we find that this key functionality doesn't really work. Since they already posess the revenue in exchange for the game as advertised, they most certainly "owe us something". The CEO of Firaxix agrees, and is to be commended for recogizing a simple reality.

If you bought Civ3 or PTW and don't like it then return it to the shop for a refund. That is your right as a consumer.

This is also not true: there are no real "rights as a consumer". Try taking a game back for a refund at CompUSA, for instance.

Nobody is forcing us to play Civ3 and nobody is forcing Firaxis or Infogrames to keep funding the development team.

Nobody forces us as adults to eat or breathe, either, but if we stop, we die. In this case, of boredom.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by gaikokujin
Nobody forces us as adults to eat or breathe, either, but if we stop, we die. In this case, of boredom.

Great sentence! I'm considering to grab it and use it as a signature. It's just a bit meaningless, out of this thread. Oh, well: nothing is perfect.

[statusperfect]

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith Oh, well: nothing is perfect.

I am.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by gaikokujin

This is also not true: there are no real "rights as a consumer". Try taking a game back for a refund at CompUSA, for instance.

Read the EULA you agreed to, you have a right to send it back to Infogrames for a full refund within 90 days if and I quote:


Infogrames Interactive warrants for a period of ninety (90) days following original retail purchase of this copy of the Software that the Software is free from substantial errors or defects that will materially interfere with the operation of the Software as described in the Documentation.

[SMIFFGIG]

Letter was likely:
Typed by his or some other Firaxis secretary
Whilst being narrated by some Firaxis Public Relations guy

With Jeffs name and company position typed at the bottom name at the bottom

We certainly regret that PTW’s debut was less than what people have come to expect from Firaxis Games

Well people have generally come to expect just this im afraid, Civ3 wasnt exactly a finished product when it was released, so what are you talking about ?

We appreciate your helpful feedback and continued patience.

Patience is the one thing that the remaining fans here are gifted with conveinently

and err Mr Briggs tell us something we dont already know, please

[MarkG]

SMIFFGIG, i(and millions of amazon customers) recently got a personal mail from Jeff Bezos! yeap, the man himself!

when you put your name on something, you put your name on it. that's all that counts.

[MarkG]

"If we don't like their games we don't buy them." would seem to imply that, if we bought the game (and, therefore, supplied them with revenue), we must like the game, both before and after the purchase.

arguments are not mathemetics
a=b doesnt necessarily mean -b=-a

[Coracle]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

Do people have reasons for criticizing Firaxis apart from Civ3? I don't see how the two are distinguished, unless there is some festering hate leftover from SMAC or Simgolf.

That's a fair point. I will clarify.

Let me say that you should presume criticism of Firaxis is of that company IN ITS PRESENT MANIFESTATION; that is, in all likelihood it is now a company seriously pressured by its parent company, Infogrames, to market beta, buggy, flawed products to get as much quick cash for the financially troubled Infogrames.

You want us to EXPLAIN all that every time we criticize Firaxis, its products, and poor customer support? That is not feasible.

I hadn't looked at a Civilization site in months, and was amused last week - though not surprised - to see the typical huge number of bugs and patch problems for PTW. So, Jeff Briggs has offered up not just another game with inherently flawed concepts, but one rushed to market long before it was ready.

With tax, the game, and useless "strategy guide", cost me close to $70, not including phone bills for the PC as I downloaded patch after patch, tried to contact Firaxis by e-mail, and in discussing it online. That also doesn't include about a hundred hours of my valuable time expended trying to get working a game with serious conceptual problems besides all the bugs, crashes, slowness, typos, etc.

But Mr Briggs can prove how amazing he is by sending me a personal letter of apology by e-mail through this site, along with arrangements for a complimentary copy of a finished PTW. It will be poor financial compensation, but I will consider it an example of good will - not BS - and I will say no more about Civ3/PTW, especially as I know Infogrames has been pushing them to market buggy beta stuff just before the Holiday buying season. I won't hold my breath waiting for either.

[player1]

Originally posted by Coracle
But Mr Briggs can prove how amazing he is by sending me a personal letter of apology by e-mail through this site, along with arrangements for a complimentary copy of a finished PTW. It will be poor financial compensation, but I will consider it an example of good will - not BS - and I will say no more about Civ3/PTW, especially as I know Infogrames has been pushing them to market buggy beta stuff just before the Holiday buying season. I won't hold my breath waiting for either.

Great idea.

So let all of us get free copy of PtW.

Even those like Coracle, who haven't bought PtW, but still complain about it.


P.S.
By the way, exept for MP problem, PtW is pretty much bugless compared to original Civ3.

[MarkG]

I hadn't looked at a Civilization site in months, and was amused last week

1) glad you finally took everyone's advice and started doing something more meaningfull than hoping from thread to thread repeating the same "arguments"(and forgeting to respond the replies you got)

2) you admit that firaxis has given you amusement. you therefore got something back for geting civ3. further demands("i've now mastered the art of whining, get me a free copy so that i can shut up") should not be made

3) for the gazzilionth time: free time is called "free" cause it has nothing to do with money

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Coracle
...
With tax, the game, and useless "strategy guide", cost me close to $70, not including phone bills for the PC as I downloaded patch after patch, tried to contact Firaxis by e-mail, and in discussing it online. That also doesn't include about a hundred hours of my valuable time expended trying to get working a game with serious conceptual problems besides all the bugs, crashes, slowness, typos, etc.
...

Let's see, for me it was (chronologically):
Strategy Guide ($15-25?)
Windoze computer system ($1,300), mid October '01
Civ3, "the tin edition" ($65)
Civ3 for Macintosh ($45-50)
PTW ($30)

Figure 20-30 hours per week for the last 13 months. Consistent patches with significant changes/fixes with which to learn new things. I have never had such a fulfilling "waste of time" in my life!

[Panag]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Let's see, for me it was (chronologically):
Strategy Guide ($15-25?)
Windoze computer system ($1,300), mid October '01
Civ3, "the tin edition" ($65)
Civ3 for Macintosh ($45-50)
PTW ($30)

Figure 20-30 hours per week for the last 13 months. Consistent patches with significant changes/fixes with which to learn new things. I have never had such a fulfilling "waste of time" in my life!

hi ,

yeah rub it in some more ; capitalist , .......


hey its a joke hé

well you pay PTW cheap ! the max now is at 76 usd , ......

but its a given fact that many of us like indeed to invest great amounts of time , .......
okay it could have been better , but in the end we all play it

have a nice day