Expectations for Monarch level?

[vmxa1]

PF, the whole deal is as you go up in levels you must rely on your ability to get more out of your empire than the AI. You will start out in a bigger and bigger hole as you get to Deity. If you do not get top production, you will be dead. Your other means of getting in the lead is to either fight or trade. The map you have, does not allow for trading much, no lux, no tech. You need more land to have more cities for research and trade. By the way, I would have next looked hard at the posibility of trade for saltpetter. First does anyone want it badly and can I afford to give it to them. The game is really not going to be a problem to at least survive and likely win. I had not check the advisor, but I am sure the AI is not going to be willing to attack you anytime soon. If they do, it would be their mistake. I would go for a few cannons and make them suffer. You can not land that many units with galleys. Only India has a city on your land. I would not be surprised to see it flipdown the line a bit, now that culture improvements are in place.

[planetfall]

vmxa1--

I didn't realize my land mass was so poor. But you are right all it had was some silks.

One question left: how get AI to give techs on peace negotations.

-- PF

[jshelr]

I was crusing by when you posted the last question. In answer I would recall childhood fights on the playground. You hold the guy down and hit him in the face. Give up, you ask? If he says no, hit him again and ask again, give? When you've hit him enough, he says give. Then, you get what you want. Very civilized, don't you think?

[planetfall]

Jshelr,

Thanks. "Civilization" is a misnomer more and more as you try harder difficulty levels.

-- PF

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by planetfall
One question left: how get AI to give techs on peace negotations.

-- PF

You asked the wrong person, as I have never had the sucess that others seem to have. They do not give me a bunch of techs and gold. I feel good to get 1 or 2 techs and maybe a small amount of cash. If you are going well, they won't have many techs you don't have and the AI is usualy close to the edge on money in my games. The only time that is not so, is on Deity and before I get moving, at that time, I am not able to beat them out of anything. Once I can, it maybe too late to get much. It is sort of like the post about the school yard fight. If I check what they want for peace,I get the least they will give. If I put units on a tile next to a city and say the bit about the threats, they will give more. They can only give what they have. To me, at monarch, I may have a quick killing of a civ that is close and maybe a few small wars later, but not much until I am getting some parity. Then I go for the take over the world. I have eased back on my warmonger, just a tad.

[Arrian]

You have to really beat the crap out of them to get tech. I normally do this in the ancient age.

Example: Emperor, as Egypt -

War #1 - I attack an American settler team (settler/warrior) and capture 2 workers. American counterattack vs. my #2 city fails (barely) and I make peace in exchange for 4 techs and gold.

War #2 - I attack America with swordsmen, capturing 2 cities, including Washington and razing 3 others. I once again receive all tech and gold for peace.

War #3 - I attack the Aztecs with swordsmen, capturing Tenochticlan and razing 2 other cities. I receive all tech/gold for peace.

War #4 - I attack the Germans with war chariots and swords, capturing or razing all but 1 city. Same pattern.

War #5 - A slugfest with the Iroquois, the first of three. I capture two cities and inflict heavy casualties, but halt there. Peace got me a little gold, but as I now had the tech lead, dunno about tech. All future wars were fought with a tech lead.

[note: the razing mentioned was autorazing, not by choice]

So like I said, you really gotta go for the jugular to get them to cough up tech (the 1st American war really surprised me, though. Perhaps hitting that settler team was the key). If they fear you, you get what you want.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Arrian
You have to really beat the crap out of them to get tech. I normally do this in the ancient age.

Example: Emperor, as Egypt -

War #1 - I attack an American settler team (settler/warrior) and capture 2 workers. American counterattack vs. my #2 city fails (barely) and I make peace in exchange for 4 techs and gold.

-Arrian

Wow, how did you get 4 techs that they did not have on emp? Huts? Was USA isolated?
Anyway, I have beat them like a stepchild, but sometime they will not even make peace when down to their last cities. So to me, 2 things are needed. 1- they have to have something to give you 2- you have to whack them hard and be sitting on their door for the next city.

[Theseus]

jshelr: "I was crusing by when you posted the last question. In answer I would recall childhood fights on the playground. You hold the guy down and hit him in the face. Give up, you ask? If he says no, hit him again and ask again, give? When you've hit him enough, he says give. Then, you get what you want. Very civilized, don't you think?"

PF: "Thanks. "Civilization" is a misnomer more and more as you try harder difficulty levels."



More converts. MWUAHAHAHA!!

[Arrian]

vmxa1,

No, no, no. I got 4 techs from THEM. I was behind in tech until I crushed Germany. Golden Age -> Great Library. From that point on, I led.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Sorry , I miss read the perspective.

[jshelr]

One More Monarch Strat

Don't forget the late-game science route.

Last week playing England I started on a modest island with Persia. The good news was there was no iron. The bad news was that, after Persia was eliminated, there was still no iron. There were also no horses, salt peter, aluminum, oil, or coal. I got uranium!!

Needless to say, there was a huge gold outflow to pay for needed stuff all game long. And the small land mass kept me down the food chain. How to win?

Well, on Monarch the combination of rapid population growth in indvidual cities yielded by graneries and an early sanitation discovery, a well-built economy, and and early research of computers in the modern era to give you research labs and seti, will give you an edge in the modern era over the AI research pace. In this game, Cathy stole tech on me and almost beat me in the end. But I was crusing away from the pack doing "honest" research on my own.

Try this strat as a small civ on Emperor and the AI will often laugh at you!! It's a complete joke by Deity. However, even after the SS launch in this game I was still only third on the score table.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Just to seee what the differences were, if any, I have some stats from the 8xxAD sav you posted and the 850AD I have.

-------- 8xx------ 850
Pop---- 3523K--- 4465K
GNP---- 291----- 341
Goods- 122M tons 133M
Prod--- 399------ 448

vxma1,
Attached is third try of playing game. 860ad. I thought I had the stat summary but couldn't find quickly this am.

These are the differences I remember:

Your play
1. you reduced workers to 5|6.
2. you have 2 size 12 cities and 1 size 11, but the extra population is entertainers.
3. you have a slightly stronger military.

my third replay
1. continent is all mine
2. foothold on Indian continent


It was very interesting to see your save. Would be interesting to see one of your saves with "optimal city placement". I used to space them 5 tiles apart, now I mix 4-5 tiles apart.

-- PF

[planetfall]

Falling off the treadmill

More Questions -- slipping & sliding on treadmill

Attached is 3rd game, year 1565, minimap.

Problems I am not able to solve:

1. China keeps getting further and further ahead in techs & military
2. Greece-Russia "war" vs China is ineffective
3. Production is average. Mostly in 33's, only one 55 shield.
4. Using luxuries for luxury trades nothing left for techs
5. Other than self-research, can't think of any way to get techs.
Military still too weak and last offer was 1500g/tech.
6. If could take care of China, how get Greece and Russia to duke it out?

Map key:
Greece__ Green, 32 cities. They took out France who was on same continent.
Russia__ Brown, 15 cities. Idaho continent.
Rome__ Rust, 6 cities.
India__ Purple, 3 cities
China__ Cyan, 18 cities, 3 natural luxuries, Hoover.
Germany__ Blue, 28 cities, few bonus tiles.

Game overview:
Russia used to have BS working on Chinese ironclads but no action recently. Never seen any Greek military. China keeps on bombarding coast lines.

Finally pulled my military up to "average", hah, hah. I have 2 DS and 34 infantry. China has:
85 infantry
15 fighters
10 bombers
8 BS
3 transports
5 marines

Guessed tech leads:
flight
communism
amphibious warfare
mass production
atomic theory
electronics

Finally decided to take out India. Only tech is communism. Only because they tend to give ROP and can't afford to allow staging of invasion force in India. Just declared war. Weird, India "remembers what you did to France..". I had no relations with France except to establish embassy.


Suggestions?

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by planetfall
These are the differences I remember:

Your play
1. you reduced workers to 5|6.
2. you have 2 size 12 cities and 1 size 11, but the extra population is entertainers.
3. you have a slightly stronger military.

my third replay
1. continent is all mine
2. foothold on Indian continent

-- PF

PF, if you look at the tech situation, you see that I have Chiv/Invention/GunPowder/Theolgy and Education is 2 turns away. I have Calv already made and muskets. This is not slightly stronger, it is significant. The Indian last town can be taken anytime. Look at the output figures I posted, this is what is going to allow you to over run the AI. From this point forward you will be taking cities and be in the lead in tech to stay. Most cities are now over 6 and will be cranking out research/cash/units.whatever. Calv can take down the AI cities with only small loses, this means grabbng more, sooner. They are also faster. Muskets mean holding those cities against the junk that the AI will be able to send against them, once you grab them.

[Arrian]

Damn, PF, your Greece is a monster. Beware a large Greece: large commercial civs, once they get rolling, are pretty powerful.

-Arrian