If real life were Civ3, who'd have the highest end score?

[Selkirk]

Re: Only America can win

Originally posted by Carver
And to the nay sayers, yes it is possible for us to reach Alpha by 2050, if we simply commit the national will, and finances, to do it.

1 light year = 9,500,000,000,000 kilometers.

Proxima Centauri, the closest star in the Alpha Centauri star system, is 4.24 light years away.

The voyager I probe, the most remote object ever made by man, is currently 12,468,000,000 Kilometers from the sun (less than 12 light hours.)

Voyager I is traveling away from the sun at 17.237 Kilometers per second.

Voyager I was launched in September of 1977.

At this rate Voyager I would reach Proxima Centauri roughly 40,000 years after it was launched. (if it were headed in that direction)

I will be 80 years old on December 28, 2049.

[Ninot]

well... um, Selkirk, who knows, maybe we'll find a truly radical form of travel that could get us there in a year? or two maybe? i dunno, just saying....

but then again, who knows, maybe a world war will erupt in a few years, the USA gets obliterated by a mix of natural dissaster (huge-earthquake in LA.....) and enemies, and a new world power emmerges, with newfound technology to reach AC, or conquer the world, or unite the world in a democratic peace. Anything can happen in 48 years. Don't say that isn't true.

[Dida]

Originally posted by Ninot

Only thing is, Mongol ruled over China. Only in a game can China claim the vice-versa.

a purely cultural point of view here.

And... wait, Christian culture originates from Hebrew?

Yeah, the only thing is, the Roman Empire collapsed a long time before China got ruled by Mongol. Historical fact is, the Roman collapsed, and were never able to come back to power, while the Chinese had their second golden age in Tang era. The very fact that the Chinese can absorb the Mongol and Manchurians, and make them a part of China as well demonstrated the strength of Chinese culture. (cultural flipping, anyone???) This kind of flipping is serious, because the invader of China became themselves, Chinese. Mind you, outter mongolia broke away from China only 80 or so years ago, and inner mongolia is still ruled by China.

Christian culture originate almost entirely from Hebrew. The whole old testement was much like a (legendary) record of Hebrew history. Romans were pagan before Christianity became popular. That is, Romans were culturally conquered by Christianity. Note that, even though Britain and much of the land surrounding Medit. Sea were once controlled by Rome, the cultural achievement of people who live there now should be credited to the Roman.

[Selkirk]

Originally posted by Ninot
well... um, Selkirk, who knows, maybe we'll find a truly radical form of travel that could get us there in a year? or two maybe?

Since that would require traveling faster than the speed of light, it would be a radical form of travel, indeed.

That is not to say that NASA is not working on such things.

Warp drive when?

[Ninot]

Hey Dida... ever hear of Byzantine?

if were talking civ3, the Eastern Roman Empire might as well be the part of Rome that didn't fall in the 5th century. So, Rome lasted untill about 500 years ago, before getting run over by the Turks. that means what was left of the Roman empire, lasted longer than the mongol invaded Chinese nation.

Oh, and while Kublai Khan and his invaders were sitting pretty over their conquered chinese people, they DIDN't absorb the culture, they kept to mongolian culture. The only exception is that Kublai Khan was an admirer of all things religious, and dabbled in a bit of chinese religion. Look it up.

Oh, and there IS no such thing as a conquered country coming back from the ashes in civ3. So China was out and out, gone!

and, regardless of if chirstianity culture-flipped Rome, or vice-verca, were not saying which religion would have won a game of civ3, were saying which civ. the Roman empire, although it was the late Roman Empire, and then the Eastern Romans, ROME cultivated Christianity into what it was up untill Lutheranism. That is undeniable. The Pope's residence is proof enough.

[Dida]

As I told you, the design of Civ3 incorporated Mongol into the Chinese race. There is no such thing as Mongolian rule of China.
Because they are Chinese as well.

[N. Machiavelli]

Cultually conquered by Christianity my arse. Christianity was an obscure cult until Nero blamed the Christians for the fire that destroyed half of Rome and thrust the Christians into the limelight of martyrdom. That martyrdom status, coupled with the fact that every Emperor after Comodous was inept, gave Christianity it's rise into worldy status. The 'conversion' to Christianity was a political move required to keep the Empire surviving after Constantine. Rome was in a losing war with Persia at the time and needed all the help they could.

As for China, how long has China continued to actually be a solid political unit? How many dynasties has it had? Many different peoples, religions, empires, and foreign influences make up "China". To compare modern China to ancient China in any way is obsurd, even modern to midieval. Sure, people have been living in China for thousands of years.....but "China" has not existed in a solid form for that long, only in culture. If you lump all that together, you might as well lump all of western culture under Roman as well. Even just including Byzantium as an extention of the Roman empire is enough to push it beyond China. The Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire), didn't finally fall until 1453 A.D. Therefore, the Government of Rome lasted as a solid entity from the founding of the Republic (509 B.C.) until the collapse of Constantinople in 1453 AD, nearly 2 millenium. That's just Rome itself, not Romanism, which survives today.

To Ninut: The Etruscans predate the Romans and were a dominant power in central Italy until the Romans overthrew the Etruscan rulers in Rome (about 507 BC) and the Republic was formed in 509 BC, the same year that Rome conquered the Etruscan capital of Etruria. But Romulus and Remus were originally from the region of Tuscany, which the Etruscans ruled as far back as 790 BC. So it was most likely that the earliest Romans were emmigrating Etruscans, the culture certainly was.

[Ninot]

well, im not even gonna TRY to argue with Machievelli. All's i got against him is different sources of info......

but as for Dida...
The point isnt how Firaxis made the Mongols and the Chinese the same people in the game. Thats not the point at all. Heck, if your gonna look at it that way, then i'll just ramble on at how its BLATENTLY obvious that Rome has had more influence on England itself, and that Englands presence in the game is nothing more than a bug. Afterall, the city named "Londinium" is evidence enough that the british were incorporated into the Roman civ in the game...

but, Dida, your straying from the point completely on your Mongol is a part of China argument. THIS argument, as im lead to believe, is about IRL civs. Would you argue that Spain NEVER would have a chance of winning, cuz its not included in the game? Disregard Spain's monopoly of almost all things South American during the middle ages? NO. Cuz we are looking at how civs have faired in IRL, and that means all civs, including Genghis and Kublai Khans, Mongolia!

now, just right here and now, am I not wrong?

simply, and with no offence, your argument about Mongolia being apart of China in the GAME, has no value here, as this argument is about another topic entirely.

[Captain]

This is about if IRL was rated according to Civ 3.

Because none of the wins has been achieved, let's go with score. Based on population, culture, power, right?

I'm summarizing so nothing is exactly bang on. I'm just trying to get the idea across. BTW, we are talking about CIVILIZATION, not just country.

In this case, China has existed the longest as a civilization (disputed between 4000-6000a). Let's just say, all 500 turns of Civ 3. current population 1.2 billion. has been around 1B for last fifty years. Incredible amounts of culture. Influenced entire Asian region. Note how many other countries use Chinese derivative writing. The Asian sphere is huge, about half of global pop. Chinese immigrants are in almost all parts of the world. In many places, they hold considerable commercial power (such as indonesia) and this had been a trend for centuries. They took their culture with them. Many, many neighbours were assimilated. Those that did not, were heavily influenced. The Chinese today, even scattered across the globe, have a definite sense of heritage.

China absorbed ALL of its conquerors. It may not have been ruled by Han people, but it was always CHINESE. (Note: Mongols and Manchus both adopted Chinese methods of ruling. They made no attempt to change china's civ. Mongols took "tribute" or ruled from above. They left China the same. Manchus actually became Chinese. Only thing they changed was mandating use of queues.)

No one has ever conquered the Chinese without becoming Chinese. Even in its waning days in late 19th c, no one ruled China, they just interfered and carved out spheres of influence and treaty ports. Even Japan's huge military conquest would never have lasted. The Chinese civilization has too much inertia to be rolled over. Even today's so called westernized free marketism has always been a traditional Chinese civ trait. The Communist era should not be seen as the definitive Chinese culture, while retaining Chinese identity, this is the biggest burp yet. Free market populism is a reversion to Chinese culture, not a new thing imported by the west.

One possible hitch. The cultural revolution destroyed many articles of Chinese Heritage (as did fifty years of war in the first half of this century). some of those mega-culture-producing temples could be considered destroyed for the last 25 "turns".

India might be a rival, the Indus Valley Civilization is about 5000 years old. So they also exist for all 500 turns. current population, just over 1.0 billion. India has scores of temples and other cultural buildings. It is a very religious society and this impacts every aspect of daily life. The ideas are held very strongly and this translates to a very very strong culture. Its influence hasn't gone much past its own borders but we're still talking about 1/6 of the world's pop. that's like adding USA to UK, France, Germ, Russia, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Scandinavia. think about it. that's a lot of people under one hegemonic and pervasive culture.

hitch: some would say their culture is not as "strong" as the Chinese (according to civ 3 rules) since they did not assimilate their conquerors, they just went on with their old ways while the rulers skimmed off the top.
They also had to contend with Islam which fractured india into Hindu and Muslim factions. This is a serious problem that has not been resolved to this day (and that they both have nukes doesn't help either!). British managed to rule most of India through alliances.

For the duration of a Civ game (4000BC-2000AD), the only "entities" that have remained identifiably constant are China and India. all others have undergone substantial changes which would change their identity. China and India have changed but are still the same entity. Contrast to druidic Britain and modern England. Contrast to Rome and Italy. contrast to Kiev and Rus.

Runners-up & why they're not medal contenders:

Israel.
founder of linear time. concept of progress. montheistic jewish faith basis for christianity and islam. jewish culture remains intact to this day, despite the absence of jewish state for ~1850 yrs, despite dispersion, and persecution/pogroms/holocaust. Juedo-Christian ethic pervades western world. Contributes to basis for enlightenment's Rationalism. But because of absence of state, cannot be counted. That's at least 350 turns tossed out. No contention.

Egypt
Plenty of culture. Still exists as a recognizable entity for all these years, despite being a protectorate and a mandate for some time. But, its culture was highly religious. Too bad it didn't translate well past ancient times. Plenty of obelisks around now though (no Freudian analysis please). Military powerful for first 2000 yrs. So that's like 150 turns? Then kaput. Too weak and non-influential to count for next 2 millenia. culture overwhelmed by Arabia & Islam. Not large or influential enough to counter India or China. But old enough for sure.

Greece.
Socrates. Plato. Aristotle. Hellenization of mid-east. REdiscovered by REnaissance. Strong influence on humanism, perfection of form, art, culture, of western civ. Polytheism didn't translate but stories did. Heroic epics still take this form. Drama may originate here. sports. Hell, the Olympics! Later, the Greek Orthodox influenced the rest of the Orthodox churches as the "founder" church. Strong cultural influence persists to this day.
OTOH, modern Greece, small. Little political or economic sway for the last millenia at least. That's 300 game turns thrown out. No contention.


Rome.
Obviously lots of culture. Still influences to this day. No question about that. BUT, as a civilizational entity of consequence, Rome has only existed for at most 800 years (make that 1300 years if you count Byzantium). In that era, that's only 250 turns.
Has not existed for long time. That's 250 turns thrown out. No contention. Modern Italy is not Roman. Renaissance Italy could be considered Roman because many facets of Roman civilization were resurrected. It was substantially different but for the sake of argument, let's call it the same. So let's add 50 turns back in. total 300 turns. culturally on par, but over time, still not quite enough to overthrow India or China.

Arabia.
Begins in 600 AD with conquest of mid-east. huge Ottoman empire owes much to Arabia. Long-lived Moorish Civ (lived longer than present USA) has temples, gardens, Universities! centres of learning. Originitors of ARABIC NUMERALS! This alone is almost worth giving them 1st place, but it counts for nothing in civ 3. (just Imagine doing math with roman numerals!). dominance over much of Africa, Turkey, Baltic region, the "Stans" (Afghan, Turkmeni, Kazhak, Uzbeki, etc...), Iran, Iraq, MidEast, OPEC, Pakistan, Indonesia. Huge influence continues to this day. Over 1B people live under Islam. Plenty of temples, and equivalents of Cathedrals. Almost a contender.
But again, not around long enough. cultural influence isn't any larger than that of China. Military was dominant only until fleet was sunk in Mediterranean and stopped at gates of Vienna (so weak for the last 400 yrs or 250 turns, strong only for maybe 100 turns).

England.
Amalgam of tribes with strong Roman influence. While Rome did not hold England for long (and not even all of it), it left the institutions and legacy that England built itself up on. England, achieved dominance by Rule of Law concept. Smaller but better educated. Room for merit. (commonly attributed to Napoleon, but go back to Voltaire's rule of law, who got his ideas from England. ) By culturally transplanting colonies. Dominance over NA, India, and many more. Largest colonial holdings. Possibly better administered than any other imperial power. HUGE numbers of people speak English, or want to learn English. The current language of business. Programming languages predominantly in English.

Did not achieve statehood or common civilizational characteristics until either after time of Alfred the Great or William the Conquereor ~ 1000 AD(where Angles, Saxons, Britons, Normans, Jutes, Picts, Celts, etc.. all became "English" - note: some would say even to this day that doesn't exist with the Scots, Welsh, and Irish). Thus, their civ is only about 300 turns old. not quite enough to cut it, though their culture is strong and influence is seen everywhere. Plus had sizeable military power and huge colonial holdings. Former colony (USA) has surpassed their dominance. Still, not quite enough to bump China or India.

France
Large empire. Adopted home (not necessarily originator) of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity ideals, meritocracy, socialism. Influence resides in many nations, esp African, and Quebec/Canada. But not a contender. While it fought England and was a rival for some time, it was simply outclassed. culture is strong, with great cathedrals and strong strong sense of heritage. military was strong from 1200?-Napoleon, 1815. It got trounced by England and Germany too many times after that to be considered strong. Wasn't really a Civ for any longer than England. Didn't dominate as powerfully as England did, so if England doesn't cut it, neither does France. Still, got a lot of wonders.

Russia. The Rus did not attain political or cultural dominance until well after the first century. Total age at most 350 turns. Its major land mass expansion occurred during the 1600-1900 era. Its major population expansion was after WW2 by the acquisition of satellite states. Russia's current population is somewhere around 150 million. At the height of its power, with all its soviet satellite states, it didn't top 300 million. Russian culture has dominated its own region but because many Eastern European cultures were so strong, Russia's culture was buffered by them. As well, Russia's culture was more influenced by its neighbours than it influencing them. consider the efforts made to westernize Russia, esp. during Peter the Great's reign (though he was not the only one). It's military power was on par with (or just below) GB, France for 18th-19thc. It made up for quality with quantity in WW1 & WW2 (though quality improved in WW2) and did not become a superpower until after WW2. Militarily over time it may just edge England (since Civ 3 counts nukes for lots of power), but culturally it loses out. It can't match the UK.

The USA. Current population is around 280 million. Total age around 200 turns. Main expansion of land mass in 19th c. with Manifest Destiny & such. Population explosion due to immigration primarily (very unique). Isolationist until WW2. Recall that the US's main expansion of military power was during WWI and WW2. That's about 80 turns worth. Culture borrows VERY heavily from UK. It can be argued that its own culture did not achieve dominance or uniqueness until the Civil War. May export lots but also imports a lot. Vulnerable to the "British Invasion". Vulnerable to Japanese manfuacturing process, to ISO 9000, etc...
Sill holding out (stupidly) with Imperial measurements.
One very unique aspect of US culture is inner-city black culture. Originates there. Possibly the only thing without another civ's equivalent (other civs are quick to copy of course). Large numbers of Wonders of the World.

US culture is very dominant, but don't forget perspective. If you are in a western nation, of course it seems dominant. But you are leaving out 3/4 of the world's pop that does NOT live in western nations. You could argue that the US exports more culture to the rest of the world (some would not call that culture, but let's assume it is) - but that does not mean that its culture is stronger than a native country's culture.
For example, you might say Hollywood exports more movies than India, but India has a HUGE film industry. India might not have access to the US, but its domestic market is large enough to be comparable.

USA is just not old enough. Given another 100 turns, maybe it can make up for lost time. But remember that other civs have the same 100 turns to continue boosting their rating. USA has the most powerful military in terms of quality of hardware and training of troops. But many other countries have long had larger militaries, in their own time being elite. only in the last 50 yrs has the US really taken a leap ahead. Make note that even the most powerful US war machine could not succeed against the determined Vietnamese (in Civ 3 terms, they didn't raze enough cities so they culture flipped back). Territory is comparable to China and India, but population is well below others. culture not around long enough to really add up. But will overtake if other civs are stagnant.

Recall also that IRL, there is tech devaluation. Reverse engineering can bring results much faster than originating them. The Chinese are doing this now. They may catch up to the current US power sooner than you think.

Spain. Achieved large dominance over land mass. Never truly governed. Just ruled from a distance. Did not build much infrastructure. Mostly took from native cultures rather than give anything - except for the Catholic Church. Many missions could be considered as temples for culture generation. But colonies were always in revolt. A weak hold based on military means only, with the Church added on. Very little else. Same goes for Portugal.

Netherlands & Belgium The low countries brought up modern trade. Led the way with merchant fleets. Held off power of Spain. Influence in NA was overtaken by the British.

Aztecs, Incas, Mayas
Surprisingly, these civs are quite young. Most of them did not exist for more than 200 yrs before Spanish conquest.

Native Americans, Aboriginals
Existed the longest, but as PC as we'd like to be, no one really considers their civ's accomplishments to be on par with modern western civs (mainly, no permanence, or tangibility).

African tribes
too little influence on the rest of the world in the last two millenia. Others have invaded and carried small parts of culture back, but since the conquerors usually didn't think much of the native culture, they ignored it or eradicated it.

Central or Eastern European
Plenty of cultural influence, probably more than Russia. For example, Poland, Germany, Austria, hungary, etc... And militarily powerful in their own time. Usually not very long. Fenced in by Brits, French, Span, Neth, so their culture and armies had to pass through those countries first - or through Russia. Or Mid East, which was hostile to their culture. 'nuff said. Good, but not more than England, so they don't cut it.

Scandinavian
See above. Nowhere to go. Generally the same deal, except add vikings. they didn't really establish any colonies or add much culture to others though.

Canada
It's my country! It has me! Therefore it must be the greatest! Ok, so its not remotely a contender, but I had to put it in.


Okay, I quit. No more country analyses. This is way too long already and no one's going to read it through the whole way. So why did I write this? Sheesh.

but if you did read this whole thing, be sure to read the note below.

NOTE:
EVERY CIV/COUNTRY is far too dismissive of others, fails to recognize contributions of others, and is generally a nation of flag-wavers. Only in your own country is it harder to recognize. The Americans will claim this for China or Russia, and vice-versa. It is important to recognize that US flagwavers are as ignorant as Chinese flagwavers. We should not denigrate the achievements of other nations simply because we are unfamiliar with them. It is safe to assume that if you are part of a Civ, you will know more about its accomplishments than that of anothers. Thus, you should give more weight to the things you are less familiar with since they represent a smaller fraction of the whole. Does this make sense? It's late. I can't think straight anymore.

[nato]

oh, just something i read just now from one of Nato's previous posts..., about crediting Buddism to India...

you can't ...

Ok, good point.

I had a funny thought ... Egypt had all those very early wonders built in Alexandria ... if they had just held out, they maybe could have had a one city culture victory! Imagine the culture per turn they would be getting from that one city by now!

Gotta read Captain's big post now...

[Ninot]

Heh, good point Nato. If Egypt hung around, with all its buildings in good shape... well, tourist destination of the world, hands down....

but, while were on what-ifs... what if Napoleon, and whoever followed him, subjugated the WORLD to French conquest? now thats a scary thought! Speakin french, eatin cheese, and showing the pride we have for our wonderful magenta musketteers!!! Vive la France!!!



That would make a great thread... maybe....

[notyoueither]

Excellent Captain. Except... What you are discounting is the fact that Western European civilization is devolved from Rome and Greece. It can be argued that they are a continuation of them.

You could definitely argue that Rome conquered Greece and absorbed the Helenistic civ. They did after a fashion. What you can't argue is that the Roman civ blends continuously through European history to this day.

In fact politically, the Holy ROMAN Empire existed until 1921 (or there abouts). 250 turns thrown out? I think not. Let's not talk about how rulers as far away as the Romanovs fancied themselves to be later day Caesars (Czar).

Now lets talk about the fact of the Romance languages. Yes those. Spanish, Portugese, French, and of course Italian are all direct derivatives of Latin. Hence ROMANce.

Religion? Temples and Cathedrals? Hmmm. Christianity was born in the Empire and grew within the same Empire. It was the state religion of Rome long before the Vandals made their appearance on the stage. Seems as if Roman culture is flourishing. Even many people in India and China have converted. Quite some sway, I'd say.

Now the English. A bigger group of later day Romans could never be found. Believe me, I'm from the Empire. The more Latin (or Greek) you can make it look and sound the better. Americans aren't a lot different. Hey, like parent like child.

So as your the saying goes, they absorbed all conquerors. Even though the Germanic tribes did a number on Rome a number of times, that civ still lives. Ever heard of a Kaiser? Sound kind of familiar? I thought so.

I liked your analysis. I only mean to provide an alternative interpretation of the passage of time. I hope it is received that way.

[Edit. Canada rulz!!!!!!! One snow ball to draw them in and in the darkness bind them. [/Edit]

Salve

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ninot
but, while were on what-ifs... what if Napoleon, and whoever followed him, subjugated the WORLD to French conquest? now thats a scary thought! Speakin french, eatin cheese, and showing the pride we have for our wonderful magenta musketteers!!! Vive la France!!!

Welcome to my nightmare...

[JohnnyCanuck]

Whats this business about great Roman culture?

What did they add to culture that they didn't adapt from the Greeks? Hell what have we added to culture that the Greeks didn't already do? Some would say: NOTHING.

Its amazing if you actually study alot of Greek text, almost every theme done in literature up to the present day has already been done in a Greek play/epic/etc...

And when you do find something they didn't do... well it probably just didn't get translated by the Arabs before the Great Library of Alexandria burnt down.


Greeks win by cultural victory before Rome even comes into play. Don't believe me? Alexander the Great's conquests spread Hellenism (greek culture) to all corners of civilization. It even spread as far as China. How did this happen? Peoples in the conquered territories (which would have stretched to India if his troops didn't mutiny) quickly adopted the superior Greek culture and it spread well after Alexander's departure... Hell there is even some evidence emerging that the Greeks had contact with South American civilizations.

[N. Machiavelli]

Facets of Greek culture were assimilated by the Romans indeed, as Rome did with all the peoples it brought under the banner of Empire; but true Roman culture was all it's own. Compared to the surprisingly conservative Greeks of the era, early Romans (read Etruscans) were astonishingly liberal. Women's rights for one. While certainly not on par with modern standards, the Romans allowed women to dine and co-exist with men in even the highest political functions: somethign that shocked the Greek traders that visited them. The concept of Representitive Government was founded in Rome. Many wave the banner of Direct "Democracy" in some Greecian city-states such as Athens, where a whopping 10% of the town was actually able to vote, all Roman citizens where able to vote even when the Empire stretched from Scotland to Judea. The Founding Fathers of the United States modelled the American Republic after the ideals of the Roman Empire. Hell, George Washington fancied himself a 'modern' Cincinatus.

The Greeks had their hay-day, but nothing Greek would have survived without the Romans to carry it on after assimilation. The fact that this conversation is in English, written in letters based on the the Roman alphabet, is a testiment to how the influences of Empire lasts this day.