Patch now available

[notyoueither]

Congrats Charles.

I detect a shift towards the centre in you. Extremes can be very isolating.

Remain a critic. Be civil. Try to be precise. All valuable.

Salve

[Mannamagnus]

I just came back from a trip to Peru, visited the website and saw that the patch is out. So I go to the forum to get some info and reviews. Unfortunatly I find most of this thread is hijacked by some self centered whiners.
Could people in future please stick to the topic! I have way too little time as it is already.

Thank you.

[SKev]

FYI- Patch back up on Civ3.com

As of 9:30 MST, you could again download the version 1.17f patch. No change on the download page indicating this is an updated or corrected version of the patch.

SKev

[SKev]

What will make you happy?

Since this thread has been hijacked, I’ll put in my $.02 on this issue…

What exactly is it that will please those who complain about Firaxis’s “silence” in the face of their “suggestions” to improve the game? I could simply dismiss it as chronic whining by those who will not be happy until the game is molded into something that they personally want regardless of cost, feasibility, compatibility with the other parts of the game or broad market appeal. But I think it goes deeper than that.

I get the sense there are those out there who expect 24/7 attention from Dan, Jeff and the rest of the Firaxis team because they not only purchased their product but believe they are the heart and soul of the Civ community and they know what’s best for Civ and the rest of us fans. The instant they’ve made what they believe to be an insightful comment, complaint or criticism about they game, they expect someone from Firaxis to promptly respond with a “Yes Sir, we’ll take care of that right way!” or engage in a three hour personal dialogue about whatever change in the game they want that day.

Dan, Jeff or Soren could spend all day every day responding to the flood of comments, complaints or criticisms and it wouldn’t change anything. When would they have time to program a patch? I guess Firaxis could just hire extra people to field these comments, but these “customer service representatives” wouldn’t know anything about the programming or nuances of the game, so that wouldn’t do it for those who want instant gratification. Plus, I doubt any gaming company has the cash lying around to set up and maintain this kind of personal, hands on support. You bought a $50 game, not a $150,000 Mercedes. Even then, I doubt Mercedes has engineers waiting at the dealerships to explain why the gauges on the dash are laid out the way they are or why “x” structural design (engine design, cabin design, etc.) was used over something that each individual Mercedes purchaser would have preferred.

Would it make the “true fans” happy if after every comment they made they got a form email from Firaxis that said “Thanks for your input. We appreciate your comments and will take them under consideration. You are a valuable member of the Civ community?” Of course not! They expect, nay demand, that their voices be given special attention and their opinions be placed above all others. Plus, they are so important they must receive an explanation, in detail and to their satisfaction, of why their brilliant idea has not been incorporate into the game or the latest patch. Anything less than that and Firaxis has “abandoned” their loyal customers. This is simply nonsense.

I think Firaxis has done a pretty good job of listening. Just because they haven’t personally responded to you or made your pet change doesn’t mean they didn’t hear your comment. There have been great ideas offered from the Civ community. Some have been incorporated in the game, some may be in a future patch and some are never going to make it.

You have the absolute right to make whatever comments you want about the game. The fact that you exercise that right (for some, multiple times every day) does not create a reciprocal responsibility or obligation that Firaxis to respond to your comment. I believe most people are sincere in their desire to make Civ the best game possible. I also think Firaxis wants to make the best game economically possible. Not exactly the same thing, but close enough for the vast majority of Civ players. The rest of them will just have to live with it. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to live with them.

SKev

[Raion]

There are people who have played the previous versions of Civ all the way back to ms-dos Civ, but CivI for Windows, is where many started.

The game is the same. The reflection of the real world, the agony of defeat, the thrill of the victory.

Many people instead of complaining have simply sought how to play the game, and once use to it, you can tell certain things about the game.

Its still the same concept, and it still plays that way, not that this version is harder or easier, nor are some features there, nor this way nor that way. The game has always been that way.

Your Civ is dumb in the beginning, it will begin to get a little smarter as the game goes on, and remembers what action you take. This all ties in to the end game, where you, and you alone, decide what everything going on in your Civ, is doing.

This may seem frustrating for some in the beginning, but as you develop your skills in playing the game, you will get use to it.

Its always has been that way, and that is why some people who have played it before, know that.

That's why its so much fun!

Did one think that you just sit down at your computer and play a game, trying to involve yourself, telling yourself all the way, that you should like such and such a game, because you were telling yourself that you did.

Well, with Civilization, you won't have to tell yourself after awhile, it will be like virtual reality, there will be a relaxation with the game, never experienced before with other game, (although you may still like them), but where can you find a game that until you master it, will give you the kind of satisfaction of playing it until you can.

You will get better, but if you are in a rush, I can tell you that you have not tried out every stragedy in the book of books on stagedy, nor have you completely gone off your rocker and just decided to wipe out this game.

You decide, did you not want too?

Many other people have, and have had more fun doing that, then worrying or nitpicking about some features that seem missing but are not!

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Congrats Charles.

I detect a shift towards the centre in you. Extremes can be very isolating.

Remain a critic. Be civil. Try to be precise. All valuable.

Salve

Yes, I spent two weeks away from Apolyton and I feel "reset". I'm back to the basics, let's try and get something done. I'm only a critic when I'm led into disapointment, such as life I suppose.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Re: What will make you happy?

Originally posted by SKev
Since this thread has been hijacked, I’ll put in my $.02 on this issue…

What exactly is it that will please those who complain about Firaxis’s “silence” in the face of their “suggestions” to improve the game? I could simply dismiss it as chronic whining by those who will not be happy until the game is molded into something that they personally want regardless of cost, feasibility, compatibility with the other parts of the game or broad market appeal. But I think it goes deeper than that.

It's called human emotion - we're people purchasing games, not robots purchasing games.

I get the sense there are those out there who expect 24/7 attention from Dan, Jeff and the rest of the Firaxis team because they not only purchased their product but believe they are the heart and soul of the Civ community and they know what’s best for Civ and the rest of us fans. The instant they’ve made what they believe to be an insightful comment, complaint or criticism about they game, they expect someone from Firaxis to promptly respond with a “Yes Sir, we’ll take care of that right way!” or engage in a three hour personal dialogue about whatever change in the game they want that day.

No, I think you make assumptions of people (specificly, the critics) that it's a "personal attention" or "social acknowledgment" score, this is nonsense. People have real emotions yes, but are people doing these things for attention, ofcoarse not. People obviously either approve or they do not. Neither is wrong, both are acceptable forms of expression and should not be cast aside because someone is tired of reading it. If you don't like what you read in the newspaper, do you call up the press and complain about the critics? Obviously you wouldn't, why would you're complaint regarding criticism and "whiners" be any better than the actually "complaining" ? Because you have emotions, and you're expressing them.

Dan, Jeff or Soren could spend all day every day responding to the flood of comments, complaints or criticisms and it wouldn’t change anything. When would they have time to program a patch? I guess Firaxis could just hire extra people to field these comments, but these “customer service representatives” wouldn’t know anything about the programming or nuances of the game, so that wouldn’t do it for those who want instant gratification. Plus, I doubt any gaming company has the cash lying around to set up and maintain this kind of personal, hands on support. You bought a $50 game, not a $150,000 Mercedes. Even then, I doubt Mercedes has engineers waiting at the dealerships to explain why the gauges on the dash are laid out the way they are or why “x” structural design (engine design, cabin design, etc.) was used over something that each individual Mercedes purchaser would have preferred.

It only takes me about 30 mins to answer a hundred emails or so, on multiple sites. If 3-4 members of Firaxis spent a few hours of company time each day, they could more than handle the volume, besides what's wrong with taking 100 questions and answering them all at once, on one page? They have a nice Q&A box on the home site, but it's never updated. Point being, there are many ways to do you're job in life, as they say, and the current way is obvsiouly not working. And you stick with what works. And regardless of what you buy, anything from a hair brush to a ferrari, you always have a consumer right to criticise and complain if you're not satisfied. I have to deal with "complaining customers" all the time at work, and regardless of the volume, we have to answer them! Otherwise I would be fired, simple. And again, this has nothing to do with personal attention, many people (including myself) have written to them, and recieved little or no responses in months, and I got tired of emailing them hundreds of times with the same questions (still unanswered).

Would it make the “true fans” happy if after every comment they made they got a form email from Firaxis that said “Thanks for your input. We appreciate your comments and will take them under consideration. You are a valuable member of the Civ community?” Of course not! They expect, nay demand, that their voices be given special attention and their opinions be placed above all others. Plus, they are so important they must receive an explanation, in detail and to their satisfaction, of why their brilliant idea has not been incorporate into the game or the latest patch. Anything less than that and Firaxis has “abandoned” their loyal customers. This is simply nonsense.

Actually, yes. If a customer (especially in this case) isn't happy with the product, the developers/company is subjected (by good business policy) to pamper their clients/customers. And just because this is a game, doesn't make the "purchase" or the "shares" any less valuble or subjective. But I'm not suggesting that they answer every little email and complaint, that's impossible, but a good Q&A gathering system, with a monthly update letter would be fine. But you are exactly right with that statement of yours, the customer should be treated with complete respect and regard on all product based matters.

You have the absolute right to make whatever comments you want about the game. The fact that you exercise that right (for some, multiple times every day) does not create a reciprocal responsibility or obligation that Firaxis to respond to your comment. I believe most people are sincere in their desire to make Civ the best game possible. I also think Firaxis wants to make the best game economically possible. Not exactly the same thing, but close enough for the vast majority of Civ players. The rest of them will just have to live with it. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to live with them.

But you're not telling everyone things we all don't already know. Even the people complaining know that personal attention, and self gratification doesn't exist with this type of business. They market a product, we buy the product and it's pretty much just that. But the one thing that will never escape these kinds of incidents is human emotion as I said above. Remember: these are people buying the products and putting wealth into the company, they aren't emotionless robots. They deserve to be treated with a "face to face" customer respect. Common sense.

So did you make you're point, and express you're feelings on the matter, definately. Have you changed minds, or enlightened anyone, I doubt it. Just understand, as you are upset with people complaining repeatetively, remember they too are upset for reason(s).

Happiness: The only way to quiet the critics, and please the "whiners" IMO is for Firaxis to allow it's community to play more of a role in the development, accompanied by updated responses baring useful information. Or, they can keep patching the game until it meets public demand, and throw in an Xpack.

Charles.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by Raion
There are people who have played the previous versions of Civ all the way back to ms-dos Civ, but CivI for Windows, is where many started.
......
[omitted for space]
......
Many other people have, and have had more fun doing that, then worrying or nitpicking about some features that seem missing but are not!

GREAT POST!!!!!!! Excellent analysis!


As one of those who started on MS-DOS Civ, let me say that you have it the nail on the head. The Civ series is like a drug, it's as addictive as anything else out there. I am please with Civ 3. Not to say things couldn't be improved, but as it is, it a fun and addictive as any other game in the series.

[ACooper]

I got tired of emailing them hundreds of times with the same questions

If you e-mailed me hundreds of times not only would I not answer I would block your e-mail address.

[ACooper]

If 3-4 members of Firaxis spent a few hours of company time each day

Ok. Lets do the math.

4 people X 2 hours a day X 5 days a week = 40 hours a week.

That is 40 hours of well paid programers time. (programers ain't cheap, just easy)

I don't know what they get paid out there, but I'm sure that spending a full quarter of thier work day would not be productive especially when 90% of the answers would basically come down to "Thank you Charles for the input. PLEASE READ THE F__ING MANUAL".

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by ACooper
If you e-mailed me hundreds of times not only would I not answer I would block your e-mail address.

I would too, if it was a "personal email", but in this case it's a "business email" and contians information regarding a product.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by ACooper


Ok. Lets do the math.

4 people X 2 hours a day X 5 days a week = 40 hours a week.

That is 40 hours of well paid programers time. (programers ain't cheap, just easy)

I don't know what they get paid out there, but I'm sure that spending a full quarter of thier work day would not be productive especially when 90% of the answers would basically come down to "Thank you Charles for the input. PLEASE READ THE F__ING MANUAL".

I see you're point. But on the other hand, (and I was saying this all along) they should take the volume of questions, and compress it into a simple Q&A link on thier website, or here on apolyton. Because most of the questions are common, with the exception of a few that branch off on a whole other tandom. So with common questions (the majority of them anyway) answered in a Q&A format on a public non-commercial site, would not only save them money, but time. Right now, they answer emails speratically, with a few setnances here and there in random threads. I think the administators of this website, and the web designers for the Civ-Homesite should put their minds together and come up with a good quick easy method of volume control. With that said, both consumer and company would profit, one with knowledge, and the other with profit. I'm not suggesting they answer each and every little email, I'm saying they should weave through the threads, pick out the questions, and jot them down on a notepad, and then answer them all at once in Q&A format. Ofcoarse that could take some time, but a hell of alot less than it does now to answer volume emails. Wouldn't you agree?


Either way, anything is better than what it is now.

Charles.

[ACooper]

The only way to quiet the critics, and please the "whiners" IMO is for Firaxis to allow it's community to play more of a role in the development.

Do you want their home phone numbers? Mayby they could fly you in for a personal conference.


Get real. They make a product. You buy a product. If you like you buy again. If you don't like you don't buy again. Simple business model. Nobody has to kiss anybody else's A__. Simple.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


I would too, if it was a "personal email", but in this case it's a "business email" and contians information regarding a product.

Charles.

It's harassment whether it's a person or a business.

[joseph1944]

Just reading through. I hope they will add a cheat editor in the next patch.