Patch now available

[Libertarian]

Mark:

so it was not about you, but it was just derived from you feeling insulted?

No, it wasn't. I have thicker skin than you give me credit for.

"I suppose it would, wouldn't it?" was said because I believed that you found merely what you had predetermined that you would look for.

The post itself says from what it was derived:

I have no idea how you might interpret this post; emotional people can be hard to predict. I can hope only that I've caught you in a moment of conciliation and forgiveness, and that you will interpret this as a genuine gesture of goodwill and offer of what I believe to be good advice that might edify you.

You're stuck on trying to figure out what I was reading into your post. Pause a moment to consider what all you might be reading into mine.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Incidentally, since "Sh*ggy" had to change his username because it was a bad word somewhere, you might ask someone what a woody is in America.

It's an old station wagon with a wood body.

It's the name of a cartoon woodpecker.

It's a toy cowboy from a popular movie.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by paulmagusnet


Mark: I find myself in total agreement Lib, except that egos are valuable and should never be appologized for. I have often observed your personal attacks in other threads was quite shocked.

The people who criticise CIVIII do so because we do love the game. If we didn't care we wouldn't write. That critisism is valuable, I teach quality management and customer comments, especially negative ones are extremely valuable opportunities.

You personally owe Lib, and others in this forum an appology for some of the unwaranted, glibe and mean gibes you've made to their persons. Simply that as the moderator of this forum you have a higher responsiblity not only to be fair, but to set an example for the behavior of others, if you want to maintain your credability.

And yes, the overt and perversive PC censorship is annoying and insulting, but it is your forum, your rules, and your problem. But if your concerned about other people's feelings, try to respect them in practice with the words you do allow.

It is personally embarrasing to me that I've had to make this statement to you.

Other than this I do think you've done an excellent job.

The fact is that CIV III is a seriously flawed product IN RELATION TO WHAT IT SHOULD BE for a 3rd generation 21st century product. As a game, it is not without merit. But the flaws go deeper than tweeks and patches, there is serious negligence and immaturity that is obvious to see. This is not a whine, it is a thoughtful evaluation of a product based upon experience and knowledge. It breaks my heart when I try to play it.

Points:

1. Mark needs to apologize to no one. I have always seen him fair with people and games. (He has even banned me and made me change my name. And some consider me a so called "sychophant")

2. If it breaks your heart, don't play it. Also please don't subject us to your hate of the game. If you have a specific comment or request place it in the appropriate place. But your inflamatory rhetoric is useless to a discussion.

3. From the chat on Friday the guys from Firaxis said that they do read the board, but that the also use the "Ignore" feature where needed. Therefore, if you continually flame them, do you really think they will continue to read what you post. Therefore, once again you become useless.

4. BTW, I thought this thead was about the patch. Silly me.

[Ming]

Originally posted by ACooper
4. BTW, I thought this thead was about the patch. Silly me.

Gee... so did I... Let's keep it that way!

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Ming


Gee... so did I... Let's keep it that way!

No problem.

[Phalanx2000]

Originally posted by Phalanx2000
Hey guys and gals. Please don't flame me I'm just trying to understand what is going on:

The 1.17f patch was available but now it isn't. It was obviously pulled for a reason. My question is, was it pulled bc of an editor issue or the stacking thing or what? Multiple reasons? I don't want to install it if the general vibe is to not do it, so.... can y'all help me out here?

Thanks,

Pha

Still need an answer....

[ACooper]

Originally posted by Phalanx2000


Still need an answer....

It was pull because it had the wrong version of the editor packaged with it.

It the chat on Friday, Dan M. of Firaxis said it could not be updated on www.Civ3.com until he got into work on Tuesday morning.

I've heard it is still available at Firaxis.com and you can also goto http://apolyton.net/civ3/ and look for LOCAL V1.17F PATCH DOWNLOAD in the news section. (scroll down the page slightly)

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by woody


Mark, don't bother responding to Lib. He's an egotistical jerk, who needs to have his deflated self-esteem pumped up by people responding to his inane personal attacks. You're only encouraging him. Everyone knows he's a hypocrit. If people would just ignore him, maybe he'll go away.

This is the very thing that Lib was trying to explain what is wrong with this board rather than what is right with it. Obviously calling someone a jerk just because you don't like what they have to say, or how they feel on the matter is ridiculous and very un-called for, I hope MarkG deals with this individual properly, according to policy. But rather than stepping on an ant like "woody" with our usual retalitory - we just spontaneously combust because we already know that "woody" is closed minded to any form of difference therefor making an attempt at trying to reason with someone like him, futile. I've read Lib's post (yes the long one to MarkG) and I completely agree with it, that's what I've been trying to say all along, but I'm not as good with the english language and gramar as Lib is, unfortunately. But I will highlight his point in hopes to burn this into everyone's mind, good or bad.

Point: Although alot of us have different views on this board, we should all clan together in unity, by demonstrating patience, tolerance and even maturity and allowing each and every individual on this board (no matter how un-popular they have become - me for example. ) and give them the freedom and rights to express their human emotions whether it be criticism or praise. The simple fact is, only MarkG can determine what kind of content he wants displayed on this board, not an individual member. So with that said, if you don't like someone's post and have nothing usefull to add to it, then move to the next. I admit I've broken this myself, but in the end I too realize that it is wrong, and very un-productive. I personally had to take a couple weeks away from this board because I was letting it get to me. In the least, we all have something in common - Civilization (TM). Let's try and make this the best damn game we can!

Charles.

[woody]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
But rather than stepping on an ant like "woody" with our usual retalitory - we just spontaneously combust because we already know that "woody" is closed minded to any form of difference therefor making an attempt at trying to reason with someone like him, futile. Charles.

Perhaps the tone of my response to MarkG was too harsh for this board. I've heard the moderators censor things quite a bit, but I suppose it's their right to moderate content. I didn't realize others would be so oversensitive, but I definitely hit a nerve in Lib.

However, I do stand by what I said. I believe it to be completely true, although I won't repeat the way I said it because it's obviously too harsh for most people here.

Lib's character is one thing. The frequency and repetition of his complaining is another issue. If he simply stated his complaints once, it would be enough. He shouldn't repeat them dozens of times. That's what bothers some of us.

I agree there's lots of bugs in Civ3. I don't agree with flaming Firaxis about them.

That's all I have to say. I don't see the need for dragging this out to a flame-war. You may have the last word.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by woody



I agree there's lots of bugs in Civ3. I don't agree with flaming Firaxis about them.

Finally a man of reason!

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by woody
Perhaps the tone of my response to MarkG was too harsh for this board. I've heard the moderators censor things quite a bit, but I suppose it's their right to moderate content. I didn't realize others would be so oversensitive, but I definitely hit a nerve in Lib.

I don't agree, I think Lib just laughed you off. And yes you were harsh and very un-reasonable, it's one thing to disagree with someone, but it's another to start insulting them because you can't force them to agree with you.

However, I do stand by what I said. I believe it to be completely true, although I won't repeat the way I said it because it's obviously too harsh for most people here.

I wouldn't say harsh, but it's definately imature and futile to get personal with people you don't know personally, make sense?

Lib's character is one thing. The frequency and repetition of his complaining is another issue. If he simply stated his complaints once, it would be enough. He shouldn't repeat them dozens of times. That's what bothers some of us.

Well I agree that the same retorics shouldn't be repeated, but you seem to forget this board is free and one of it's freedoms is that of free speech (for the exception of house policy) and if someone feels that they have to repeat themselves, then I begin to wonder why. I personally had to repeat my arguments because I was often attacked by multiple members of this board who all wondered the same thing, why I was mad. By you jumping on Lib, you only become that which you despise.

I agree there's lots of bugs in Civ3. I don't agree with flaming Firaxis about them.

Well, you're half right. Yes there are many things wrong with this game, but that's not why Firaxis was being flammed, they got attacked because they lacked any communication with the community and when they responded to questions and inquiry, they gave us vague responses and rarely answered them. People don't start flamming for no reason, something set them off.

That's all I have to say. I don't see the need for dragging this out to a flame-war. You may have the last word.

This isn't a contest or "the last word" it's merely me trying to explain to people like you that everyone has a different view, and just because you don't like what someone has to say doesn't mean you can become judge over their actions and morales. But asside from all that I respect what you said when you mentioned that we shouldn't become un-productive by insulting the game developers, this is true - it will lead no where.

Charles.

[hwinkels]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Maybe they heard. Maybe they didn't. If only there were some way we could have known. But alas, how?

This is an issue that doesn't seem to get much attention. While Firaxis does occasionally respond to specific questions, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The net result is that some conclude "The lights are on but nobody's home."

Many "whines" get started after the Firaxians remain unresponsive to requests for information. Such a pattern of responses - or the lack thereof - leads to speculation as to why they choose to remain silent. I know I, for one, would be satisfied with even a "We're considering it", or "We don't think we'll be able to get to that for a few months" type of response. One way of viewing their tactics is to assume they are arrogant, dismissive, or incompetent. Another viewpoint would hold that there are business or legal reasons behind what they choose to reveal or not reveal.

It's like Nixon's secret plan to end the war in Vietnam. "Trust me" (or us as the case may be). Nobody knows what's really going on and the silence is deafening. Personally, I expect the worst but hope for the best. Thus, I was pleasantly surprised by the 1.17f patch. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. It's encouraging to know they are toiling at bug fixing and enhancements. A little insight now and then as to what their immediate plans are would be not a bad thing.

[dowish]

I thank that they got burned pretty bad because of all the things they said they wanted or were going to include in the game. Then, when it came out with out a lot of that stuff (for whatever reason it wasn't included) they got burned. So they have taken at least an unofficial position that if it isn't 100% sure, they won't talk about.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by hwinkels

This is an issue that doesn't seem to get much attention. While Firaxis does occasionally respond to specific questions, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The net result is that some conclude "The lights are on but nobody's home."

Many "whines" get started after the Firaxians remain unresponsive to requests for information. Such a pattern of responses - or the lack thereof - leads to speculation as to why they choose to remain silent. I know I, for one, would be satisfied with even a "We're considering it", or "We don't think we'll be able to get to that for a few months" type of response. One way of viewing their tactics is to assume they are arrogant, dismissive, or incompetent. Another viewpoint would hold that there are business or legal reasons behind what they choose to reveal or not reveal.

It's like Nixon's secret plan to end the war in Vietnam. "Trust me" (or us as the case may be). Nobody knows what's really going on and the silence is deafening. Personally, I expect the worst but hope for the best. Thus, I was pleasantly surprised by the 1.17f patch. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than nothing? Absolutely. It's encouraging to know they are toiling at bug fixing and enhancements. A little insight now and then as to what their immediate plans are would be not a bad thing.

From a consumer point of view, "I'm sorry we cannot help you, due to company policy" is surely going to agrivate the customer even more. Simply, when someone makes a purchase they have expectations that acompany that purchase, and when they aren't happy for whatever reason a company in most cases hides behind policy so they don't have to go that extra length and consume company resources to please each and every individual consumer. However the companies that do, are rewarded by excellent reputation and an increase in sales. But am I to judge what Firaxis should, or should not do? No. That's completely up to them, but do I feel that they've been handling things poorly, yes. There are alot of ways to do business, and the "nixon" "area-51" or "Hoffa" methods should not be one of them. But you are right.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by dowish
I thank that they got burned pretty bad because of all the things they said they wanted or were going to include in the game. Then, when it came out with out a lot of that stuff (for whatever reason it wasn't included) they got burned. So they have taken at least an unofficial position that if it isn't 100% sure, they won't talk about.

However, if they did take the "official" position and remained open with all game issues, they would get a better response from the community, and we could work with them, instead of against them. But to hide behind policy, or take the "No comment" approach is only going to create waves. However, it is their business and it's up to them how they want to run it.

Charles.