Disenchanted

[Velociryx]

Corruption
I have no problems with the aggregate corruption levels proposed, but with the execution of the model. Here's what I mean:

Right now, you have corruption in two forms (loss of shields and loss of coins) centered around twin pillars of corruption-causes. Distance and Raw Number of production centers.

The latter (number of production centers) is valid, IMO, and specifically counters (or attempts to counter) ICS. That's all well and good, but the distance factor makes no sense.

My recommendation would be to remove it from consideration entirely and replace it with a corruption factor based on government type, with distance as a remedial factor.

Examples:
Despotism: Central Control is key here, thus, for far-flung cities IN a despotism, you could expect a higher rate of corruption (which could be undone in large part with no builds at the arrival of Radio).

Monarchy: A bit more advanced. True, you still have bothersome levels of corruption, but presumdely one of the reasons you tolerate your Peers of the Realm is cos they are at least nominally loyal to you. Loyalty = Less corruption. In this case, it'd be good if there was a government-specific specialist citizen, the Justicar. Each worker promoted to Justicar decreases corruption in those cities (and obviously, the specialist is unavailable with other government types).

Republic: Similarly, a Governor's mansion/office could be built under a Republican government which would further reduce corruption.

Courthouse: Double the effectiveness, and make them Dem specific.

Communism: Labor Camp: Addresses corruption by making more productivity to counter it. Comes at the price of decreasing aggregate culture (which can be offset by using the greater productive capacity to make more cultural builds....still won't have as much as a Democracy, but you'd be a contender).

Again, none of that should be too tough to add in, and it would dramatically and decisively address the corruption problem due to distance without impacting corruption due to number of production centers to the point that the game is a walkover.

Also, each government type should come with an efficiency rating, which will further bleed productivity (borrowing from SMAC here). And, to that end, you could have some city builds that help alleviate effie problems (local precincts, lower courts, hell, perhaps even libraries could help with that!).

-Just a few more odd thoughts.

Further improving the AI
First, let me say again that Soren did a MASTERFUL job with the AI! In the ancient age, it rocks!

Trouble is, as the game advances, the AI seems to know less and less about handling the increasing flexibility of modern units. Partly, this can be addressed in the editor, by tweaking the numbers and the AI's priority flags for handling the units. Testing is currently being done with the mod proposal for that very thing.

Another thing though, that would help immensely, is to give the AI a "basic playbook" of strats to persue when fighting.

Feint, Flank, Overrun, Scortched Earth, etc.

As with a football team's playbook, the basic recepie could be spelled out for the AI, with instructions to improvise based on prevailing terrain and city layouts. As it stands now, the AI is good at massing for an attack, but it begins to fall down in terms of *executing* the attack....so the idea occurred to me, why not kinna give it a basic idea of how:

IE - The AI decides it's gonna go to war with you. It sees that it has 30 swordsmen to your 10, and 20 horsemen to your 8. Since it has the numerical edge, the decision tree points to a flank/overrun style of attack.

8 Galleys are recalled and filled to the gills with swordsmen.

These, the AI holds out of site of your units until the attack begins (with the rest of his swordsmen charging down one front, the horseman horde charging from another direction, with an eye toward laying waste to your frontier towns and pillaging roads to prevent your speedy reinforcement, and capturing workers when there's no threat from enemy troops).

Three turns after the attack begins (in order to give your own forces time to begin responding), the AI lands his flanking force of 16 swordsmen--taking advantage of the fact that most players will respond overwhelmingly to the first threat.

BOOM! The AI takes another step forward in kicking some human butt.

And playbooks like that can be devised for all the major situations the computer will be fighting in, described in broad terms to the AI so that it doesn't HAVE to cover every possible case.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Hey brother JT! And not to worry....I have no illusions that even if I'm on the beta team, we'll be under serious constraints for what can and cannot be changed....but my hope is that with enough incremental changes, and with the right modding tools, we can create a standard mod for the game that will be widely used and accepted....and that such a hybridized effort (continued tweaking under the hood and modding in the spirit of Ctp) will leave us with a Civ3 that's addicting indeed.....

-=Vel=-

[Capt Dizle]

and one more thing

to all of you who keep saying that Civ3 is a good but not great game. You are wrong and will come to realize it in time.

Civ/Civ2 was the king of games. Civ3 is Civ-like (and Civ-lite, he he). You think its good because you like to play Civ style games. Because the basic Civ idea, after all this time, is still good. But the implementation of Civ3 is awful.

Civ is Good, Civ is Great,
But Sid was afraid to put Civ3 on his plate.
Now its out and boy it's lame,
And even Sid wants to fix this awful game.

Helplessly they thrash first this way and that
Lets beta test and put on an expansion hat!
But, no luck for them as its simply too late!
This game was dead right out of the gate.

Blast the heavens O God of the Game,
For Firaxis hacks have tarnished your fame
O Sid the Mighty Meier, game developer gone bad
And wishing a better idea than dinos he had.

jt

[Velociryx]

LOL! Good poetry JT!

I respectfully disagree 'bout Civ3 not being a good game tho.....true, it's got high points (Ancient Era and Middle Ages) and low points (Industrial and Modern Era), but on balance, I'm having fun playing it when I play it....so that fits my definition of a "good" game. Trouble is, I'm not playing it for days on end like some of the games that came before it (civ2, smac). In that regard, it is, sadly, a lesser game.

Still, I wouldn't be here if I didn't have hope....and I fully intend to put every brain cell I have in operation trying to figure out how to improve on what we have to make it the best it can be....

And, to that end, here are some more thoughts:

The Outdated Units Problem
Heinously easy fix here, and it's two-fold:

First (and this is doable in the editor), simply rig the game such that when a unit is out dated, it is simply no longer available for the AI to build. The AI WILL BUILD units, but if ancient ones aren't available to it, it'll build more modern ones by default. (of course, this means adding zero-resource units in all ages and eras to replace the ubiquitous swordsman, but that's easy enough--and in the mod!.

Second, automatic upgrades. When you get a new unit type (pikemen), all your older units that upgrade to it are upgraded on the turn you get the tech with no prompting from you. If you can't afford it....tough. You lose them.

This is good cos it adds another layer of planning in HOW you attack the tech tree. You can't just go balls up racing at breakneck speed....not unless you wanna rebuild your army and defense forces from scratch.

Planning then, would be needed, and that's a good thing, IMO!

-Thoughts on this, or any of the other ideas posted tonight are always welcomed and appreciated! (even if we don't agree!)



-=Vel=-

Edit: In the case of units that are at the end of their upgrade path....when THEY become obsolete, they vanish, and you get a "production credit card" usable at any number of cities in any amount(s) you want. Each unit auto-disbanded puts credits (shields) on your credit card. Spend how you like.

[Velociryx]

Further thoughts on the production credit card: It occurs to me that rather than giving a one-time bonus of ten shields for deforestation, you could extend the credit card approach to cover that as well. Instead of allowing ten shields to go to the nearest city, they go on the card and you can use them whenever and wherever it suits you. The thing that keeps this from being abused then, is that IFE is no longer an option.

-=Vel=-

[Comrade Tribune]

Re: and one more thing

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Civ is Good, Civ is Great,
But Sid was afraid to put Civ3 on his plate.
Now its out and boy it's lame,
And even Sid wants to fix this awful game.

Helplessly they thrash first this way and that
Lets beta test and put on an expansion hat!
But, no luck for them as its simply too late!
This game was dead right out of the gate.

Blast the heavens O God of the Game,
For Firaxis hacks have tarnished your fame
O Sid the Mighty Meier, game developer gone bad
And wishing a better idea than dinos he had.

jt

[Capt Dizle]

If you were going to try to fix the monstrousity...

First thing you have to do is deal with the tedium. Stacked movement. Proper movement sequencing. As is it is work not play. How we can go through 10 years of game developement and end up with MORE tedium NOW than in the begining is beyond the scope of human sanity.

Second thing is the culture problem. I would advocate just taking it out, but...

if you are going to leave it in we need specific cultural structures. The idea of research and religious structures and wonders producing culture was a poor and lazy approach. The player needs a cultural density map similar to the maps in SimCity. Overlay maps that can show where each Civ's culture is high or not . Then, the player needs to be forced to choose between building a cultural building or another type or pursuing a unit based strat instead.

This would introduce conflict which is the basis of all good stories. Games are nothing but interactive stories you know.

The player must always be conflicted as to which course to choose in a strategy game. Otherwise its not strategy, and Civ3 of course is not a strategy game cause FIRAXIS HAS INTENTIONALLY CREATED ONLY ONE WAY TO PLAY IT.

I slightly exagerate as you can play pop build rush. But basically every course is along the same river.

Every game is the same tedious walk up some toddler's alley of an idea of what a game should be. Ugh.

And for God's sake put the spies back in the game! I want my caravans! I want my crawlers. I want to build a borehole in the middle of Sid's forehead!

I can't write anymore just now I have lost control of myself.

jt

[Jumping Choya]

I'm not sure if this is quite along the lines of what you wanted for this thread, but I have a few suggestions. I posted two of these in a thread that disappeared with the server move, so I don't think many people got to read it. These were inspired by a recent game.

1) There should be a Hated Enemy system in place. Let me explain. In the game I played, the Japanese declared war on me something like four times (they were on another continent and had a huge country because they eliminated China some time before we made contact). Now, I was a Democracy, and the Japanese declared war on me AGAIN. There was war weariness before I even set foot on Japanese soil. Naturally, the Japanese were refusing my envoys. Anyway, my Democracy collapsed in one turn without warning; the turn before, there was unrest in only one city, and the next, most of them fell into disorder and I lost my Democracy the same turn!

What I propose is a Hated Enemy clause, which works like this: if a certain country (in my case Japan) has attacked you multiple times, or committed atrocities, war weariness will take longer to set it, and in some cases, the people will even approve of military action against the said country. It makes no sense why the people should get sick of the war when we're being attacked by a merciless country that attacked us before, and probably would in the future. They should have hated Japan.

2) A "Just Does Not Happen" clause and a "Highly Unlikely to Happen" clause. In my game, I amassed some Panzers to invade the Japanese mainland. I had eight infantry and 16 Panzers. The Japanese descended upon my force with scads of obsolete units. They had surprising success, and they eventually wore my infantry down enough so the Panzers came up to defend. Longbowmen ended up destroying a Panzer that had retreated after taking damage from another longbowmen attack. Now, this is what the Just Does Not Happen clause does: it specifically states to the game that a units like a longbowman and those dreaded spearmen will not ever inflict one point of damage against something like a tank. The Highly Unlikely Clause would work by adjusting the percentages in favor of the unit that would be more likely to win in the real world. For example, cavalry would have trouble against the Panzer, and longbowmen would have trouble against infantry.

3) There should be a "Build Canal" ability for workers. I don't know how many times I see a dumb little strait that blocks my ships, and the location is not worth putting a city on. As you might have guessed, the Build Canal ability would connect those two bodies of water (this could also be useful if you have a city on an inland lake). It should work kind of like the Build Road to (ctrl+R), and would work only for three squares or less between the water bodies (although this is not a must). It would function like roads, in that anybody can use canals in neutrual territory, and only you and ROP civs can use canals within your territory.

So, that raps up my ideas for now. What does everybody think?

[Velociryx]

Oh! I LOVE the canal option! And the hated enemy thing too! As to the combat results....we're workin' on that via the mod....should have something out for everybody to playtest soon!

-=Vel=-

[Capt Dizle]

Well..

I sent them a copy of my poem with my application for the beta team. Vel, maybe they will pick me to beta the PBEM. We can partner up again!

LMAO!

I wonder if the current development team has ever heard of PBEM?



Yin and Vel and Lt. Col jtrick vs three of the Firaxis choirboys!!!

Now that would be the ultimate beta test indeed.

[yin26]

Better make it a 3 v 5, at least. We'll get bored otherwise!

"Hey, wait. Those 3 guys can't do that, can they? We didn't program that, did we?"

Vel: One thing that would make me try Civ3 again in a heartbeat: SIMULTANEOUS MOVES! This is in Risk 2, and even in that simple form adds sooo much more to the speed and strategy of the game.

[Alexander's Horse]

I've had Civ III since shortly after it came out and I'm only just finishing my third game. That says it all.

Actually once I've absolutely convinced myself that isn't just that I don't understand the game yet, I'm probably going back to Civ II.

The tragedy is that with even just a few tweaks it could be a great game:

. Turn corruption down - or make the ways to manage it reasonable.

. Turn culture down - so cities don't defect unless your doing something major wrong.

. Stacked movement/ make armies easier to build.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Velociryx

2) Wheat stalks do NOT start off appearing on the map! In fact, they do not appear until the middle ages (Crop Rotation....Jethro Tull...LOL). Cows do not appear on the map at game start. You want 'em....gotta research Animal Husbandry (Ancient tech). Hills can be irrigated, mountains produce one more shield when mined, plains cannot be mined (but so far, grassland still can).

Just make sure that AH comes early. If, for instance, it comes turn 40 I'll already will have plonked down three cities, and on a tiny map there's just room for one or two more. That would be a disincentive to reaserach AH at all early - wouldn't you rather go for iron working if you're cities were allready "fixed" anyway? Also, if it means AI cities are even worse placed, there's _another_ reason for razing... do we really need that? In the same line of reasoning, I think that the middle ages for wheat is way too late.

6) Barbarians are MEAN! Default units have been changed (tentatively) to: Swordsmen, Knight, Privateer (beefed up!)

Umm, I've taken to playing with barbs at as low a setting as I can get it on the higher levels, because it hampers the AI _way_ worse than the HP. Load a map on monarch (where you can still set barb levels) and try for a hundered turns of "roaming" and "raging", respectively. Save and compare mini-map AI spread - the AI simply cannot handle the beefed up barbs, while your development will probably be quite similar.

[Velociryx]

Good observations on the delay in food bonus tiles and Barbs!

In truth, I had not given the impacts of these proposals much thought on small/tiny maps (yep...LOL...I guess I'm biased toward the bigger maps)

Here's a bit of the thinking behind those two proposals in particular:

Barbarians: Tribes like the Huns, Vandals, Hittites....these guys were *terrifying!* Barbarians as they stand right now....signiciantly LESS than terrifying. Not even really in the nuisance category, and that's too bad. In the early game, a barbarian horde can be a LOT more threatening to a human player's hearth and home than whatever piddling invasion force the AI could mount (the only drawback here is that the barbs can't raze or capture towns, which, IMO is a huge step back from Civ2). By bulking them up, at least on standard and larger maps, not only does it give the player pause with regards to popping goody huts and exploration, but I've not seen on the larger maps that it hinders the AI particularly, AND it has a side benefit of strengthening the Expansionist trait somewhat.

With regards to food production bonuses, I thought Crop Rotation coming at the start of the middle ages put it just about perfectly....consider:

In the Ancient Age, you're running Despotism (actually a food negative...sorta). Research Animal Husbandry and some of your cities get a food boost (a quite welcomed one, too!).--side note: The AI has an *uncanny* ability to plant cities where resources will show up in the future (making me think they know about them before we do), so I don't think this will result in higher percentages of badly placed AI cities in need of razing). Once you research Monarchy/Republic (late Ancient Era), you get another food bonus when the restrictions of Despotism come off/Republic boost.

And finally, if you're looking for a further boost (if early high growth is part of your overall plan), you can research crop rotation to get it. IMO, the reason people balk at the moving of wheat stalks is cos they're used to seeing them/having the benefit from game start, but it's been my experience that Granaries are seldom necessary, cos my cities grow faster than I can control them if I build granaries. With the proposed changes, I think it'll be much more of a strategic choice.

Or...no?

-=Vel=-

[Akka]

1) There should be a Hated Enemy system in place.

There should be a human dimension in diplomacy, period. Actually, I do not have the feeling to struggle against civilization leaded by people, I have the feeling to struggle against an AI whose only purpose is to win a game. What lack in this game (and to be honest, in most games) is a real relationship between different civilizations : love, hate, confidence, defiance...
Having a all-time enemy would induce defiance, reduce or even suppress war weariness, and it would even put unhappiness in population as long as you're NOT at war with this civ (warmonger wings). It would reduce the commercial relations between the civs.
Being a 1500-years ally should bring confidence, goodwill and privilegied trade. Staying at peace should progressively give bonuses to commerce between two civ, made bargaining easier and would tend to make the civ more eager to help you when you're in need. Similarly, your population would react with lots of anger if you come to attack this friendly civ.
I know it's the door open to many forms of abuse. Well, so what ? I would prefer to have an abuse possibility but have a better immersion in the game. It would just need for me to roleplay my leader position to not abuse the system, and it would improve my enjoyment of the game. Being always on the defensive and waiting backstab from anyone is fun sometimes, but having civ reacting in more of a human fashion would be a big improvement.

The Highly Unlikely Clause would work by adjusting the percentages in favor of the unit that would be more likely to win in the real world.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this solution already exist in the form of HP/FP, that were stupidly removed from the game. Give them us back !!!