Civilization III v1.16f Additions/Changes/Fixes

[smellymummy]

Originally posted by yin26
Actually, Yoda misquoted me: We ejected him into deep space for 2 years as punishment.

Yoda is over 800 years old pal, no way he could of misquoted you, since you werent around! Don't spread lies about the small green wise man!!! Okay?

Thank you.

[Venger]

First - are engineers gone from Civ3? I certainly never got to build them, and they helped late game tedium by working twice as fast...

Jerk has some good ideas, basically making the worker hard to get but he works REAL fast, basically as an engineer units it sounds. I like it...

Venger

[yin26]

First, I like the changes you've made to the workers! Great ideas. Good work.

As for negativity, it depends. Do you feel that Firaxis and Infogrames have jerked around the public in any way? If not, then you no doubt find it hard to understand the negativity. I personally feel that they HAVE.

The next questions you asked are good ones: Do I post to punish Firaxis? In a way, yes. When I keep some of the negative points in the spotlight, I am making the decision to make sure that the past is not fogotten. How is this helpful?

History often repeats itself. But when it repeats itself in the face of constant reminders of previous failings, at some point Firaxis has to ask itself as a company: Are we going to do this better next time?

Or they can ignore us completely. Which, in many cases, I think they have done anyway ... which leads once again to the negativity. Will it help the cause?

I can say that at least 'a few' Civ3's were not purchased because of the less than stellar comments from people on this forum. And I can say that some key players at Firaxis -- even if they are trying to avoid certain threads and certain people -- are keenly aware that a good number of people here are not satisfied at all with the game.

If they didn't know that to begin with, would they really push themselves on future patches? Personally, I don't think so. I think they'd look at silence or acceptance from the fans as a sign that all is right in the world of Civ. This is human.

On the other hand, there are constructive ways to be negative and destructive ways. I would argue that if you are a person who feels the game will *never* be worth playing, then you should leave. I am borderline. I am waiting to see what patches 2 and 3 look like, since that will tell me more or less the Firaxis strategy for Civ3.

Until then, this is a forum. I'll post whatever strikes me in the moment ... and always have.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Venger
Why is the solution to poor game design to "go to the editor". Did I buy Civ3 or the Civ Construction Set? Maybe I want my game to work and be fun out of the box?

good god, do you want to play a great civ game or do you a miracle(firaxis releasing a version of civ with exactly the rules and settings that you want) to happen?

if you want to play a great civ game that has the rules that you like(even if turns out to be unbalanced ), use the freaking editor!

[Venger]

Originally posted by volcanohead
Not sure how hard it is to code a worker algorithm which will work as efficiently as a human in all situations. Imagine it's pretty tricky, to say the least...

Indeed. But there is another way...

Lame point following: Has ANY 4E game with a worker type unit ever approached human-like intelligence for tile improvement?

Who knows - though I bet with an open system and good script language the community members here could whip out a decent one...

Are we simply making unrealistic demands? Or are Firaxis just crap?

Neither. There is a gameplay problem with workers on large maps due to both intrinsic AI problems and gameplay concept problems of having to railroad every god damn square on the map. Workers should simply create connections between towns, create colonies, and clear land and pollution (terraform!!). The tile bonuses should come from in city improvements of Highways for the road bonus of trade and Railways for the bonus food/shield. This way, you don't ugly up the damn map and require me to move 200 workers around every turn or two...

Venger
P.S. Nobody asked me how I got 200 workers...only 10 of them are mine!

[Ragamuffin]

Brian Reynolds where are you?
My First and Last post so chill homies.

/Rant on
Much like the quality of CivIII this patch is total crap, all they've done is tried fix a few game balance issues (corruption, AI Stupidity, Palace exploit) and typos. I ask you Firaxis, where's the BEEF!

Am I to assume the ultra expanisiont AI is intentional? Why is this AI behaviour necessary when it was not in CivII and SMAC? Why is it inevitable in every game that some militaristic civ start a war with me for no stated reason (he was gracious just a turn ago, but I knew what was up when his army began pouring into my borders and he was at war with no one at the time), was it this way in CivII and SMAC? WAS IT NOT a STATED GOAL of Brians and Sids to be able to win these game genres peacefully? My God not even the Hall of Fame screen is up to CivII standards WHAT IS THE DEAL?

Why won't the AI respect my borders when I've already proven my strength to them?
Why can't I get a warning when a civ is close to finishing a wonder 'ala CivII, I mean it makes some sense that my "embassy diplomats" or traveling citizens would report on some massive project over there that looks pretty close to done.
Why doesn't the game give me some idea as to my reputation. Why does the AI insist on trying to bully me into giving them stuff when it should be obvious to them that their knights stand little chance against tanks and bombers? (Hey you created the crappy resource seed not me)
Why can the AI's galleys cross the ocean without the GL when mine can not?
Why are expanionist civs worthless after the ancient era?
Why is espionage so impossibly expensive?
Is it really necessary for Romes 78 Knights to hold daily dance shows on my borders?
What is with the freaking 35 Workers forming a convoy through my land? Can't you somehow let the AI know that I WILL TURN THEIR SKINNY REAR ENDS INTO 70 SHIELDS CAUSE I'M SICK OF IT. I intentionally played on cheiftan last night just so I'd be sure to get the pleasure of nuking your pitiful AI into oblivion. It did release some frustration BUT NOT MUCH.

OH! 40 turns to get techs now, that'll be real nice on Monarch and Deity where the AI is getting techs every 2-4 STINKING NANOSECONDS. Why I've completely wiped out an AI, all money, all techs, all resources leaving them 1 city and the entire rest of the world still at war with him and why I'll be a Soren programmed AI Head if not 2 turns later he's 6 TECHS AHEAD OF ME AGAIN. I could go on all night but I'll digress, take a suggestion Firaxians, listen to your customers when they tell you this patch is a decent first step but no where close to what is required to fix this game. Given the time you've have had to discover just some of these problems (there's hoardes more), I was hoping for something more substantial than a rampaging barbarian hoarde of typo fixes. BAH!
/Rant off

[yin26]

Yoda is over 800 years old pal, no way he could of misquoted you, since you werent around! Don't spread lies about the small green wise man!!! Okay?

Thank you.

Yes, but the movie came out when I was a kid. Even by the time I was a kid, I was saying all kinds of amazing quotes that would stand the test of time.

'I can't believe it's not butter!' for instance was something I said when I was just 2 1/2 years old. An on-going court case is debating exactly how much I am to be compensated.

When Yoda was casted for the movie, he spent a weekend at my house. His only job was to keep the grill hot and ready for the steaks. He kept complaining that he was too short for the job. I remember then saying my famous words.

Knowing he was a hot actor at the time, I even specifically said: 'Listen little green midget: Use that line in a movie and I'll have your SAG card and that staff (which he uses only as a prop, by the way) shoved between those vulcan ears!" He claimed Spock stole the look from him, at which point I knew what I was dealing with.

So there I am in the theater watching that little puke run his lines and there it was: A bastardization of my brilliance a few months earlier. While the court finally did let him do a few more movies, it was at 1/10th of the normal SAG pay. I remember sitting there as the judge said:

"Green dwarves are bad enough. Unoriginal ones turn my stomach."

Ever seen Yoda cry? I have. And it was delicious!

[Venger]

Originally posted by MarkG
good god, do you want to play a great civ game

Yes. Is anyone releasing one soon?

or do you a miracle(firaxis releasing a version of civ with exactly the rules and settings that you want) to happen?

How about a finished game that builds on the success of prior games in the series and other TBS games with improved polish and gamplay, rather than a regressive combat system with a very buggy and unchallenging AI and poorly conceived and balanced border/corruption/culture./resource system, regressive and often useless/pointless tech tree (freaking LASER - point won), and obscene lack of unit variety?

Oh, and were you hoping to play a game with the rules and settings you wanted, or the rules and settings someone else wanted? Don't you want them a certain way for a reason, because...you think it's a better way? It's the same simple argument people make with "you always think you're right" - well no $hit, who would continue to believe something they think is wrong?

And only you are supposing that there is a juxtaposition between the rules and settings any of us may want and a good Civ game...there certainly is a juxtaposition between a good Civ game and what is currently installed in the Civ3 folder on my hard drive...

if you want to play a great civ game that has the rules that you like(even if turns out to be unbalanced ), use the freaking editor!

So Mark, does the patch balance or unbalance the game? Does fixing air superiority unbalance it, or changing privateers, or changing corruption, or subs, or the rate of city recidivism, or the effect of police stations, or any of the other changes in the game? Either it was balanced then (pick your pre-patch topic) or it's balanced now.

The game should be a complete work, balanced and elegant, out of the box. As it is now, it's Civ Construction Set, where you get to fix the game while barking expletives about a caravel sinking your sub (up to a 25% chance). Enjoy...

Venger

[siredgar]

Civilization IV will be harder sell, if these patches don't work out...

When I played the original Civilization computer version game, I was amazed. Then, Civilization II was a huge surprise and I became an addict. However, Civilization III did not live up to its promise. That is why I don't think I will be rushing to buy Civilization IV, if it ever comes out.

Honestly though, I would suspect Infogrames as the culprit rather than Firaxis for any "rush-job" qualities to the game. As an investor, I have followed the company closely over the past year. Just so you know, I purchased IFGM stock based solely on Infogrames' acquisition of Hasbro Interactive, which effectively transferred ownership of the Civilization series to the French company. Anyhow, Infogrames seems much too power-hungry to care enough about this unique product.

I look forward to Patch #2 (with the ability to specify player starting locations).

Thanks.

[Jerk]

As for negativity, it depends. Do you feel that Firaxis and Infogrames have jerked around the public in any way? If not, then you no doubt find it hard to understand the negativity. I personally feel that they HAVE.

The next questions you asked are good ones: Do I post to punish Firaxis? In a way, yes. When I keep some of the negative points in the spotlight, I am making the decision to make sure that the past is not fogotten. How is this helpful?

History often repeats itself. But when it repeats itself in the face of constant reminders of previous failings, at some point Firaxis has to ask itself as a company: Are we going to do this better next time?

Or they can ignore us completely. Which, in many cases, I think they have done anyway ... which leads once again to the negativity. Will it help the cause?

I think it depends on the way it is done really. While many are constructive and maybe do persuade a few to not purchase the game, others go so far that they cause people to tune them out. One commercial or favorable rating by a game magazine will cause more people to buy the game then some negative remarks on a forum (even one as popular as this). This is even more true when the negative remarks are done with a bad attitude and rude comments. Those people who choose to be so negative to the point of being mean do a disfavor to your cause. After reading a few I am sure the casual poster or lurker will tend to just blow by the negative comments (including those that are constructive). This is because the bad posters tend to simply repeat the same things the good posters are only they do it in bad taste. I think more could be accomplished with a tad bit more civility. Perhaps an ON TOP thread could be created for general dislikes. Too keep the civility duplicate complaints would have to be deleted as well as the flames and trolls. Perhaps an entire new forum could be created for Post-Release suggestions. Simple rules could apply such as "One suggestion per thread". That suggestion could be debated (Pros/Cons) for such a change in the game. This would of course create a lot more work for our moderator which is sad because I think as a community we should be able to self regulate and behave on our own.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Venger
First - are engineers gone from Civ3? I certainly never got to build them, and they helped late game tedium by working twice as fast...

RTFM!!

Do us all a favour and at least UNDERSTAND the game before you complain about it!!

After discovering replacable parts, your workers now work twice as fast. Just by discovering that tech. And without you needing to rebuild your entire work-force just to get a speed increase.

The game should be a complete work, balanced and elegant, out of the box.

The game works fine for those of us who understand it
Go and actually play it for a while, and next time you post here, try to complain about something other than your lack of understanding.

[Libertarian]

First - stop thanking Firaxis for the patch. A patch is THE LEAST they can do for you, the person who paid THEM money. Thanking them is saying "thank you sir, may I have another"...

Well, that explains a great deal. About you.

When I think of Dan or Soren, alone at their desk at 4:00 AM, bleary-eyed, but plugging along anyway so they can try their best to meet unreasonable dealines for unreasonable deadbeats... And then when I think about self-righteous, sanctimonious puff-bags like you and Yen (and your spawn, ProblematicDog)...

It is to laugh. Ha!

[yin26]

Libertarian: You're right. I'm not grateful in the least for people having to work hard to make up for releasing shoddy work. When they earn my respect, I'll give it to them.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Venger
Oh, and were you hoping to play a game with the rules and settings you wanted, or the rules and settings someone else wanted?

i was hoping for a fun game whose rules i can adjust to my personal preferences in order to have an ever better (to me) game

So Mark, does the patch balance or unbalance the game?

perhaps it didnt cross your mind that not all editing choices unbalance the game. you probably didnt notice that i didnt express any certainty that changing the rules as you would like them to be would unbalance the game.

As it is now, it's Civ Construction Set, where you get to fix the game while barking expletives about a caravel sinking your sub (up to a 25% chance). Enjoy...

well, why dont you show firaxis how game designing is done and put out a mod with the "right" rules?

[Libertarian]

Yin

Are you truly so isolated from ecoculture that you do not understand the difference between a developer and a producer? If your boss orders you to skimp on the cherries in your banana splits, but you try to make it up to your customers by adding a bit of extra carmel sauce, and they rag on you that you've released to them a shoddy banana split ...

Could you explain to me why those customers aren't jackasses?