Civilization III v1.16f Additions/Changes/Fixes

[sophist]

Too much to respond to... it all goes in this one.

Originally posted by yin26
O.K. Don't do the 'research': Find it out yourself. I'm tired of reminding people of what was said by Firaxis when. Most people here have sudden memory loss the moment a shiny box or a post from Firaxis arrives.

And if it mattered to you to change minds rather than to shoot your... fingers off, well, you'd tell him. It's easy enough to save your response once and paste it every time someone asks. People aren't persuaded by impatience.

Originally posted by yin26
You are all Luke Skywalkers and I'm your Yoda.

Learn if you will.

Well. Since you said it, that must be true.

Originally posted by yin26

Yoda says, taking a deep sigh having had to state the obvious to too many these past 600 years:

"Automate sucks, it does. Programmed by swamp rats, it was."

If it's so obvious... why did it have to be pointed out?

Obvious: adj., easily discovered, seen, or understood

Perhaps you thought it meant something else?

Originally posted by Venger

First - stop thanking Firaxis for the patch. A patch is THE LEAST they can do for you, the person who paid THEM money. Thanking them is saying "thank you sir, may I have another"...

Well, it can't hurt, can it? Be pragmatic. But if your pride's too big for that...

Originally posted by Venger

Let the AI do it, and you'll end up with 4 workers dogpiled on a square on turn 1, the other 6 will dogpile on turn 2, before the road is built by the 4 workers who dogpiled the square on turn 1. So you have 6 wasted turns, coupled with the inefficiency of the two wasted turns by not splitting the roading up on different tiles. Or, you'll get workers working one at a time on the map, which returns benefits much more slowly than stacking them. The AI doesn't work or stack efficicently.

That's probably more efficient. I mean, this way, you get two fully developed squares every couple of turns. If you had just one worker per square, you would have the same squares fully developed, but you'd have to wait 6 turns for it to happen, and it would happen all at once. Stacking the units means you get usable squares faster.

Originally posted by yin26

Libertarian: You're right. I'm not grateful in the least for people having to work hard to make up for releasing shoddy work. When they earn my respect, I'll give it to them.

And that's exactly the attitude that makes them really want your respect, too. Not.

Ozymandous: do you mean Ozymandias? As in "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings, Look on my Works, ye Mighty and despair!"

Originally posted by Venger

Oh the humanity!! They have made the ultimate sacrifice! They threw themselves on a proverbial grenade for us! They are doing this for all of us for free, after all, we downloaded the game for free right, and we should be groveling like a starving dog for whatever chum they toss down from the table.

Dude, have you ever worked those hours? Put in many 16 hour days? Devoted your life to your work and been met by crap like this? They don't get paid enough for giving up their lives for a few months for you. Given their maturity and your apparent lack, it's apparent they'd be giving up a bit more of a life than you.

[electro]

Umm does anybody know if the problems with many civ in foregin advisor screen have been fixed. There seem so to be a maximum of 10 leaders visible there even if there is 16civs

[Kolyana]

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS

AFAIK this can be fixed by deleting all fonts in the "Lucida" family from your fonts directory.

Dan

A little belated, but WTF????

I'd *NEVER* say that to a client.

"Doesn't look right on your system? Delete your fonts."

Sorry, Dan, but that's WEAK. I mean ...

"Other games look okay on your system? Want to use your fonts for graphic design and publishing? Sorry ... delete them all or buy another computer ..."

Yuck.

[Childe Roland]

Venger

The Emporer has no clothes? You accuse anyone who enjoys the game of blindly supporting such a broken product. I say the Emporer has a great set of clothes, with a small tear that needs mending.

Why can't you accept that some people enjoy the game in it's current state? You accuse me of blindly defending my false idol when I specifically mention some of it's problems. You resort to namecalling when others disagree. Because I enjoy the game, even with the bugs, I am a mindless drone .... a fanboy?

Bah, why bother. It's not like you will ever really listen. You obviously are'nt here to really discuss anything with anyone else. I get the impression that you are rather full of yourself, here to educate the ignorant masses and save us from this terrible game (I can't believe you take the time to link your vocabulary to www.dictionary.com .... well I guess I should be thankful .... 'thems high school words' .... your just trying to 'edumicate' me.) Your word is law, even though it seems you have never even finished a full game in Civ3, yep, you're the resident expert here.

Yin
About my comment that you feel was trolling .... stating that you rebut every positive post. I agree that it was a slight exaggeration. But I still stand by the rest of my post, that you have chosen to ignore. You use that word "blindly" again. Looking at my post, how am I blindly supporting this game?
I would say that I (like most others here) support and enjoy this game even while fully aware of it's problems.

As I tried to convey in my last post, just because I am willing to suffer these bugs to play this game doesn't make me wrong (or a fanboy). We just disagree. I do owe you an apology, however. I never should have impled that you were in the same camp as Venger. That was insulting.



The "Hall Monitor"


BTW, is it really trolling when the thread is already burning this hotly?

[Cesa]

Originally posted by Kolyana


Whilst this may be a noble attempt to solve the reloading issue, it's bull.

What if you never attacked with the tanks this turn? That means that the computer has calculated battles that never took place ... and I can't believe that the game would truly go through the entire map and pre-calculate every possibility.

That would be stupid.

I don't think it calculates every possibility , but only results for say

Attack 1 vs. Defense 1, 1st time = x1
Attack 1 vs. Defense 1, 2nd time = x2
...
then
Attack 2 vs. Defense 1, 1st time = y2

(regardless of which unit that attacks)

and so on for a number of attacks, it sounds like alot, but shouldn't take a second for a computer to calculate!

There are many other possibilities aswell that do not require calculation of every possibility.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Ralf


Under demogracy, the speed of your workers increases from 100% to 150% - almost there.

As for railroads boosting everything, I agree - this only leads to more or less uniform & monotonoues looking RR-spiderweb landscapes. RR:s should really only increase shields-outputs, and possibly boost trade, but as an counteracting measure; actually decrease the irrigation food bonus. Non-irrigated tiles with food-outputs would be uneffected, however.

Above would introduce some interesting back-and-forth considerations, regarding RR-building.

Hmm, my question is where were all the people who thought this "feature" sucked in Civ1 and Civ2 and posted loudly about it before Civ3 came out. Funny, but I don't remember ANY posts where people complained about that feature in Civ1 & Civ2 but suddenly it's ugly and a problem with the game??

Hello!?!?! This has been part of the Civ series since it came out years & years ago. Is it only because you can't use the sprawling roads and rail networks of the enemy to easily conqueror them that this has suddenly turned into a "problem"?

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Venger

Obsess much?

Hmm, have you looked at yourself lately much? lol...

[koenig etzel]

"..spaceship parts can only be built in one city."

what does he mean by that??

[Ozymandous]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hmmmmmm

Originally posted by Venger


And Nor?

Ohhh, mighty blow!! You sure scored a lot of points for picking on a spelling mistake there, let me tell you!!

Air superiority - must be me.
Useless privateer - must be me.
10 for 100 gold - must be me.

Hmm, going to be fixed, going to be fixed in the patch (or gee you could beef it up in the EDITOR as well? Imagine that?), going to be fixed in the patch.

Your next list of complaints?

So is the patch the game, or just you?

Hmm, and let me guess you play UNPATCHED SMAC and CIV2 correct??? If not then you are a complete hypocrite.

That this forum right now isn't a fan site, it's a fanboy site?

Hmm, amusing how you automatically deduce that just because people don't agree with you they are "fanboys". I guess you'd not be upset then if the majority of the people here posted like you and then we could call this place nothing but a "troll nest" simply because you didn't like the game?

Get a clue, just because people like the game doesn't think that we think it's perfect (well some might, but not the majority). A lot of people I have seen, even in this thread, say something along the lines of "great patch, we'll be waiting on others to fix all the other issues we want (like an editor)".

Where does that constitute a "fanboy site" Mr. troll?

Majority of whom? Oh, I see, the crowd loves the emperor's new clothes...

And Cinderella's sisters were jealous of her ability to be happy even with what they considered drudge work. Your point?

Rape is like bad weather - just lie back and enjoy it eh? Did you just come here to gladhand and give everyone who fawns on the game a verbal reacharound?

Hmm, better than a few people like you trying to get everyone else to bend over so you can shove your opinions where you want them.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Cavalier_13


How about seeing why we don't enjoy it as much?

Well.. With the numerous and numerous thread started by the same people who don't find the game has all that THEY expected, (not what was originally promised or anything) the rest of us don't have much choice in seeing what a few people don't like about the game.

The problem lies when those who don't like the game, for whatever reason, start attacking those who do simply because the people who like the game don't automatically say the game is bad. Then the pissed off folsk start verbally attacking others, see how that leads to a downward spiral?

When we do, we're told either "use the editor to fix it yourself" or "if you don't like it, too bad"

Well gee, not to sound patronizing, but isn't that what the editor is for? So you can adjust the game to suit YOUR tastes if you don't like the default rules?? At least that was my impression of what it was for, that and scenario design (when it is ever finished!). Maybe peoiple need to use the tools included to help them make the game into a "blue firetruck" if they don't like the default "red" color.

Is the anger because the game isn't "blue" or because people have to actually get off their behinds and work to make it like they want?? Not an attack, but I am seriously curious why such venom in the responses to "change it how YOU want it to be" by some people.

Heck, if you had given me an editor that allowed me to change stuff in Civ1 to be like I wanted I'd have been tickled pink, yet now it's not good enough that the default game doesn't fulfill every single wish or every single person (which is impossible to do anyway, hence the editor).

So is saying anything negative about Civ3.....at least with the name calling, you get a rile out of some people and it makes it at least somewhat worthwhile.

And in serious debate you automatically undermine your position and essentially LOSE because you went off logic and topic by calling names.

Sure calling people names might get some attention, but you will NOT win the argument and you WILL be reported to moderators. That's how message boards work typically, at least in my limited 4 years+ experience.

[Ozymandous]

More Ramblings

Originally posted by zoyd

1. You cannot suggest that Civ3 is, in any real way, revolutionary. It's an evolutionary product. As such, it SHOULD be a more-polished product than a 'revolutionary' product, at first release. It was released with some considerable bugs, typos and errors, and possibly some 'poorly-reasoned' game-balance decisions. GRANTED, it's not buggy in the sense that many people have it crash often, but why should it? It's not like they're re-inventing the wheel. The AI-sees-my-subs-bug?! Come on.

Hmm, and we all know that ALL games, even those 3+ years in development like Diablo2, NEVER need any sort of patch right?

2. It's obvious that Civ3, despite some added features, has actually REGRESSED in several areas from Civ2. Wonder movies? Decent Hall of Fame screen? Logical pop-ups? They've turned espionage into a strange and expensive chore. There are some aspects of Civ3 that are just plain SHODDY in comparison to Civ2, which is ridiculous. Snoopy or someone came up with shore tiles that look better than the default ones, and he'd had the game less than a couple weeks! And there are obvious oversights. Stacked movement, for one. Starting positions? Multiplayer? I don't think I'm an a-hole for being disappointed that Civ3 doesn't have these features -- features that just should have been included. End of story.

And other than a graphics face lift what made Civ2 more than an evolutionary product from Civ1? Not much. Civ2 still had patches as well. I don't remember armies, or being able to trade stuff on the diplomacy screen or resources in Civ2. I guess these are all minor updates to the series, yes?

Stacked movement should have been included, as well as MP and starting positions, but it wasn't. *shrug* Game still plays well for me with no crashes and is much more fun than the same stale Civ1 clone ala Civ2. Civ3 isn't perfect but IMHO it added a lot more to the series compared to Civ2 than Civ2 vs. Civ1.

Having said that, Civ3 IS playable. It IS fun. I've spent many hours playing it, and look forward to the patch. But I hate that I have to 'look forward to the patch'.

Sorry, but ALL games are patched, even if only for minor issues. It's not optimal and I know I have grown tired of having to download a patch for most everything, but face it, with sortware there are always things you look back on and see a way to make it better or fix something minor that didn't appear in the first 6 months of the game, etc.

Would you rather there was no such thing as a patch and you had to buy X-packs every three months after release to get fixes? I wouldn't.

Does anyone ever think about the percentage of people who buy a game who DON'T have internet access to get all the friggin' patches?! They're stuck with the pre-patch version, barring some work...

Hmm, this isn't a problem with Civ3 but ALL games. Do you think the people who bought Diablo2 and it's expansion liked how the item generator was BROKEN by the X-pack and only fixed with a patch? Do you think people who bought Pool of Radiance have to get a patch to keep the game (in rare cases) from deleting system files when it un-installs?

Most games *will* get some sort of patch, it's up to the game company to make sure that any required patches are small and only tweak minor things, and aren't 10+ MB in size and have to essentially re-work the entire game.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Venger


Okay...so was it a crime to ask instead of poke through 200+ pages? I didn't say there were, I asked if there were...

No, I'd say the crime was to automatically blast the person who told you it ws in the manual. If you had stopped, looked through the whole manual and posted something like "Oops, you're right, I had'nt looked well enough. " people probably would have laughed with you. Instead you posted yet more venom because you had felt embarrassed that you missed something to begin with and attacked the person offering help.

Come on - you think it's native to look through the entire tech tree to determine if a unit gets some special bonus at some point? That's too obtuse even for you to buy... I didn't notice it in the tree, but I shouldn't be expected to look through the techs to see if each one makes modifications for existing units...ESPECIALLY when the pages on workers in the manual and index don't mention any bonus...

So.. Even though the game had a different tech tree than before you didn't think to look to see what had changed? If even one person looked at the tech tree or read the manual enough to find the differences (even to simply look at the "what's different from Civ2 chapter") then apparently it was not "non-native" for everyone, just those who didn't want to apply the effort.

In my statements I assumed a work rate I believe is consistent with post-replaceable parts in my game - hence, making it slower only exacerbates the issue.

It doesn't make it slower, it makes it faster so you need LESS people working for you. When you get RP is an excellent time to send those long-labouring workers off to get some rest in a nice city (add to it's population).

No way. I just loaded my game, democracy, worker takes 3 turns to irrigate. This is a captured Egyptian worker I am using.

He may have been using an Industrious worker, they are naturally faster and if he was under Democracy after getting RP then the worker might be a 1 turn irrigate, who knows. The fastest I have seen was one turn road on plains and 2 turns to irrigate plains/grassland.

That's great, one step in the right direction - I quit playing when I realized I would need 25 units to take each city, 4 to take it and 21 to hold it. That's not acceptable, and it was the last straw...it wasn't just workers man...

Most invading armies I have heard of in history had to station large numbers of troops in conquered cities to keep the city in their hands. This doesn't seem too outlandish to me.

That would be a tremendous step in the right direction. Why isn't it in the patch? Is this NOT seen as a pressing need?

Maybe they didn't expect people to be using huge groups of units because in their testing they never had huge empires due to corruption? Who knows. I believe they have taken the idea down for (hopeful) futuring patching.

Come on - I have posted NUMEROUS suggestions for the game. It may make your postition more tenable to pretend that all I do is post "Civ3 sucks" all the time, but I post what my problems are in detail, and almost always offer some information as to how it can be better and why it should be.

And then you blast and launch personal attacks against ANYONE who offers a way to bypass the issues you're having by using the editor or anyone who offers a counter point of why what you suggest might not be in the best interst of the game overall. That's the problem.

Neither is RTFM and other stuff in your post.

Hmm, but amusing that RTFM was true and pertinent in this case. (I missed most of the stuff in there too until I saw people post things here, but then again I didn't complain about everything I thought was wrong with the game either. I waitied to see if maybe I had missed some things, like the stuff in the manual. )

[Ozymandous]

Re: Re: Yin, you ...

Originally posted by Venger


You know what's stupid? This thread isn't talking about the patch anymore, rather it's hijacked off into "Shut up Venger, all you do is complain" and "Eat $hit you obsequious histrionic schoolgirl, all you do is whimper when people criticize".

Actually the thread was hijacked by people who don't like the game and want the patch to change every aspect of the game to be how they like it. For the most part people were saying "good start, can we get this and this and this as well later" until someone (won't mention names) starts calling people "fanboys" and trolling the thread by talking about how a patch is useless because the game is stupid, or just started in with how broken the game is.

Go back and see who started the thread off topic and I can almost guarentee you'll see who the real culprit was. There is a distinct line that one person crossed because they STOPPED talking about the patch and started talking about how bad *they* thought the game itself was.

Oh, and it wasn't someone who liked the patch or even the good start the patch seemed to represent either so that should narrow down your search.

This happens in other threads too, usually because someone throws a name calling bomb or somesuch and moves the topic away from the game and onto the game players...

Have you ever gone back into threads and see who was the first to hijack the thread?? Usually people who like to post everywhere how bad the game is (to them) or how they don't like this or that. It's the same 4-5 people most of the time, it's easy to see.

Unfortunate.

Yes it is. maybe the same folks who seem to do this with most of the threads they post in will look and see what they can do to help stop this practice.

We can only hope.

[AHO]

Good Lord, 15 pages of this drivel?

[rid102]

Good Lord, 15 pages of this drivel?

Apparently so. For some it's the quantity, not quality, of hair-pulling and eye-scratching that counts...

You would kind of hoped that both sides would have gotten over it by now, but alas...