First Impressions

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Thoth
Civ 2 had a lot more information available to the player. I miss being able to look at the happiness analysis and know why a city was unhappy. There's no "Zoom to City" option for civil unrest.....it's way too easy to miss a city that has gone into disorder.

Try right-clicking on an unhappy citizen head... you should get a "poll" on why the citizens are unhappy...

[Ballz1998]

Originally posted by StrategicKing2
Ok instead of blowing these programers genitils, lets all ask the real question.."why the hell no multi-player"? It makes no sense at all. The real fun of civ is comparing yourself with the rest of the civ players and outwitting others.

I'll tell you why no multiplayer. Infogrames said finish the game now. Firaxis said we're not done yet. Infogrames said you better get done quick or kiss the whole project good bye. So they had to choose between releasing a buggy SP/MP game and a stable pretty much bug free SP game... Personally im glad, very glad they had sense enough to do the latter. I would love to have MP but infogrames will probably sell it as an addon... the bastards. Companies that practice that kind of marketing don't gain any reputation points with me thats for sure.

[Libertarian]

Well, I don't have Ballz's direct line to Miss Cleo, so I have no idea why there's no MP, but I can give my first impression. I like it very much. It's quite a different animal strategically from Civ2, but that's one of the things I like about it. The challenge is back. At least for now.

[Ballz1998]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Well, I don't have Ballz's direct line to Miss Cleo. . .

That's just the way games are made these days... developers get paid to finish games to the producers specifications... if its not done, but the marketing gurus think it shipping at time X will maximize profits... it ships, period.

[Libertarian]

Right, but what's your point? That capitalism is bad or something? If it's so easy to make a game for free, why don't you go ahead and do it?

Firaxis couldn't have won this thing either way: ship late, gripe gripe gripe; ship on time, gripe gripe girpe. Tell me honestly, did you expect perfection on first release? If so, have you ever written a nontrivial computer program?

[TCO]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
GP: Don't speak for all vet Civ2ers when you say that they don't irrigate or build mines at the beginning. At Deity, you get two settlers, while your first city is growing and obtaining martial law, the second should first open a hut and then starting getting roads and irrigation around the first city (assuming it's a good site). That has been the typical strategy of Deity players.

But now with Civ3, it perhaps becomes irrelevant.

Only a nincompoop would irrigate under despotism. Only a wimpy bulder would irrigate when he could ICS (unless playing OCC).

[TCO]

Maybe that was a little inflamatory. What I meant to say was, "you would be in the definite minority of strong civvers if you did early irrigation/mining in Civ2."* When someone says the game is too hard (Civ3) and they haven't mastered Civ2, I take things with a grain of salt.

I recognize that it is completely possible to beat the AI on diety with multiple strategies...heck you can disband the settler and still win.

[EnderSword]

This game is good, despite it's best efforts to create a clutered mess.

I'll go through point by point stuff about gameplay and stuff.

1. AI opponents - The opponents expand faster, manage their science better, trade and deal with each other, they seem to attack cities wisely, weak cities first etc... and seem to know when to hold and when to burn a city. However, in a military sense their armies appear to randomly move around most of the time and they don't seem to use fortresses or arm their borders or chokepoints. Overall much better than Civ2 but could be better or atleast less random

2. AI self management - Obviously telling AI to run your cities sucks, but i do like the resrictions you can add to limit what they start building. And the Workers are a million times better than in Civ2, they balance out what they build, they incorporate resources and even clear forests and jungles when they think it's appropriate. That and the pathing is better, automated settlers in CIV2 would walk around the world instead of using the railroad.

3. Improvements - These suck, They're pretty much the same as Civ2, without being adjusted for the different game play. There's less emphasis on economy (stock exchange removed) but the entire system of research is now based on your income. Also new problems like War weariness and rampant corruption are hardly addressed at all.

4. Wonders - Also pretty much the same as Civ2, some new and more creative stuff could have been added, there's plenty of cool stuff in the world to build. The Essentials here are just the Pyramids...and thats about it.

5. Corruption - Holy Crap, Move away from your palace and The people just won't do any work for you at all, I have cities where i've lost upwards of 15 sheilds and 30 commerce to corruption, and that's in a Democracy. With this level of problems and no real way to solve it captured foreign cities far from home are pretty much useless.

6. Governments - Not exactly the most creative things in the world, did away with fundamentalism and didn't add anything like facism or any religious type of system...despite having Empires with 'Religious' Tendancies

7. Empire Traits - Kinda cool, let's you pick the style of play you want. I tend towards industrious and Scientific Persians, renamed Canadians of course. Also more importantly gives the AI certain advantages they can use to kill you. Also can be turned off, good thinking

8. Victories - 6 Ways to win, Most of them stupid. Conquest and Space Race remain kinda cool, either be the strongest or smartest. Cultural is also atleast sensical allowing you to dominate with 'influence'...like the US. However this could have been better by adding cultural improvements and Techs like TV or something strictly cultural. Domination is just conquest cut short, Diplomatic is really lame, it doesn't even take into account relative power like Alpha Centauri did. Also you have no choice when to be victorious, If you complete a space ship you launch it, no choice to wait etc..

9. Score - This is a horrible way of keeping score, based pretty much entirely on your population and territory. This is totally lame, no points for your Culture (other than how it translates to territory) , No points for Wonders themselves, or even points for victory type. i just got through completing the space race and Ta-da...Ender the Foolish.

10. Game Timing - Way Off, You get all types of Power Plants whin 5 techs of each other, No real strong offense until Tanks, My Cities hit population 12 about 200 turns before i can get sanitation and Build the neceassry hospitals. also the first part of the game goes so fast, it's 1500AD before you know it.

11. Units - I Like settlers/workers being split up. I find there's not much variety or anything in ground units and lack of airbases make air units less effective. Not very creative, no really special forces type things. I do like that they gain experience, makes sense.

12. Great Leaders - totally crappy. When I heard they were going to add Great leaders I thought they meant almost as a new type of wonder, create the proper conditions and Napolean is born, Starts golden age or Gives a benefit like Adds 1 to attack power of all units or like Alexander is born, All conquered cities have no resisting workers etc... something useful like that, possibly lasting only during the persons's 'lifespan'. Instead they reward constant attacking, meaning you can only get a great leader while fighting.

13. Armies - good idea, bad implementation. Only benefit is higher Hp. even 3 Modern tanks can only attack once per turn and there seems to be no attack of defense bonus or anything, maybe i'm just not seeing it. Seems like a waste of Attack units, but good for defense of cities.

14. Technology - Lame and the same, like most stuff in the game.

15. Diplomacy - It is much better at trading and negotiating, however three or more person trades would be cool. I'd be nice to be able to create multi-country pacts like Nato or Warsaw. I can sign mutual protection with japan and China, but it'd be cool to essentially force them to sign one with each other too.

16. Resources - Good idea, make land and terrain have a strategic value instead of just space for development. also makes roads/rail/ports more important. Luxuries making people happy is good.

17. Territory/Borders - Good idea, very necessary with no more ZOC, however I notice tough enforcement of other civ's borders, but they walk through yours all day and they don't even stop when you tell them to leave. They'll even found new cities in your land...You'll often capture them through culture...but still =)
You should be able to kinda of set a border policy, opened, semi-opened (civilian but non-military) and totally closed where the civ is sent an automatic warning.

18. World Council - Would be nice to have a functional UN that voted on global policy or something, like in Alpha Centauri.

19. Advisors screens - Poor...at best. No real help or info here, even when you try to sort cities by some criteria it resets it in seconds...useless. The advice they giving isn't that directive either, they just tell you things you know already. Military advice is a little useful since it can be sorted by type and city.

20. War Weariness - Very intangible, that sucks. Should have some sort of number associated with it so you know how to manage it better. Also some compensation should be made for victory, no one hates a war that is very sucessful and produces no real losses. Well, maybe hippies hate it, but they suck.

21. Game length - seems short to me, Even at cheiftan I only finished the tech tree with 40 turns left and had to hurry alot to comlete conquest.

22. Overall - In Total this is good, could have had more changes, even just superficial ones like changing the names of improvements, techs and wonders. It provides a new style of play but is lacking in a few major, major areas. Multiplayer might be good for this version since less micromanagement is required but as a whole Civ really is a SP game, unless you really want to take your time and take a few days to play against a friend or two.

23. Verdict - I like the game, I'm glad i bought it But it could have been about 1000 times better, especilly given 5 years to concieve of it. I assume they got bogged down by too many people making suggestions of impractical things or very specific things and forgot to make the game flow balanced and logical. It happens. I Like the game, I'll play it for 1-3 months probably thne switch back to a Warcraft 3/Everquest type game. But in a year from now when i want to play a game of Civ and build a cool empire and stuff I'll be loading up Civ2, not Civ3.


Well, that's my 46 cents, kinda long. Tell me what you think, maybe we can get'em to patch in a few changes

Owner of Civs 1-3, SMAC, CTP 1&2 and railroad tycoon:
Ender Wiggin

[Spatzimaus]

Something amazing happened.

Recap: 16 players, Huge map, one big skinny continent (except for one big island the Indians had all to themselves). Year is about 1300, most civs are just entering the Industrial Era. I'm Persians, located at the extreme end of the continent. I had a slight tech advantage but no horses. My two neighbors, Egypt and Greece, both had horses in border cities. Still, it wasn't looking good.

I saved the game, and tried attacking each in turn. Both chewed me up fast, it didn't go well. So, I had to come up with something new.

The world had been pretty quiet; only a couple wars in 200 years. This HAD to change. First, I traded a couple luxuries to Greece to let me use their Horses. Then, I picked two pairs of civs; one pair at the far end of the world (Iriquois and Japan), the other in the middle of the continent (England and France), and payed them to fight each other. (Technically it was a "military alliance" but I was so far away that there's no possible way I could get into it. It'd be like Argentina paying Germany to be their ally against France; you know who's going to take the brunt of the damage).

Next thing I know, it's World War I. Anyone read the Onion's "Our Dumb Century"? "Britain declares war on Prussia declares war on Hungary declares war on France... Britain almost declares war on itself". Next thing I know, it's me, Rome, China, Greece, England, Iriquois, and Russia versus China, France, America, Egypt, Japan, and India. Germany and the Aztecs were too busy having a war of their own to get involved, and the Babylonians were my ex-neighbors (heh heh heh).

By the time the smoke cleared 100 years later (i.e., when everyone got Infantry and railroads, which pretty much shut down the Cavalry), Egypt and Japan were down to three cities each (with me getting almost all of Egypt), India went neutral, and China switched sides and invaded England and the Iriquois at once.

Amazing. A gigantic war started because I needed Horses for my Cavalry, and it left me as one of the top three civs in the world. I love this game.

(Note: if you want an ally's help, remember to make a Right of Passage agreement so they can use your road network)

Once I get tanks, World War 2 will start.

[monolith94]

Spat, you are the MAN.

[Darkknight]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


With WinZip on maximum compression, my savegames usually compress down to a couple hundred Kb.

Dan

thats not bad I used to send 300-400kb CTP2 savegames unzipped with my 31K

[Stromprophet]

13. Armies - good idea, bad implementation. Only benefit is higher Hp. even 3 Modern tanks can only attack once per turn and there seems to be no attack of defense bonus or anything, maybe i'm just not seeing it. Seems like a waste of Attack units, but good for defense of cities

Be Germany, you'll find out that you can actually attack a few times with tanks. But of course that is inherent in their civ ability.

[Stromprophet]

5. Corruption - Holy Crap, Move away from your palace and The people just won't do any work for you at all, I have cities where i've lost upwards of 15 sheilds and 30 commerce to corruption, and that's in a Democracy. With this level of problems and no real way to solve it captured foreign cities far from home are pretty much useless.

Building the Forbidden Palace will help. Mistake I made was to build mine about 12 spaces from my existing capital. Doh! I think also in communism every city experiences the same level of corruption.

A big mistake I see is the lack of better governments, or more selection. What ever happened to nice old Facism?

[Stromprophet]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


I initially had a bad skipping sound in the music. Tech support advised me to set sound debugging in the DirectX contol panel to none or basic. None caused the freeze you described above. Basic left the skipping in. So I turned the music off--games runs beautifully without it.

Cheers.

Yeah, I have to change some sound settings still, I get the skipping, but my game will freeze no matter what the sound settings are.

The only way I can get past it, I CAN'T WACTH THE OPENING MOVIE!

I have to hit the escape button when the infogames logo comes up, otherwise it freezes.

[Stromprophet]

After playing half a game on King, and Half on Regent, and almost a whole one on Chieftan I have some reactions.

1. Regent and King are hard. To say the least, the computer spreads better than you, I suspect that they have seriously decreased production values and research costs. Or they are just plain cheating. I never lost a game of civ to the computer, on any level, any map, or any sad start. And I lost to this one. Not badly, but still. It was really tough.

2. The AI is smart. I will give them that. They remember what you did to other civs. They remember what you did to them. They talk with eachother and conspire against you. They also won't let you giev them any deals that are fair to you. That I don't like, I always have to give more to get what I want. I like the AI expressions, I find it hilarious. Abe was wearing a jesters outfit yesterday, hehehe.

3. I love 16 civ gameplay, let's hope we have this on MP, although I would strictly advise only cable players to try this. It's taking me at least 20 seconds for a turn to pass by now, and my system is pretty good. 16 civ rocks out, except one big issue, the Advisor screen, won't fit all 16 on the foriegn minister screen. So I can't talk to all 16 whenever I want. (Or I haven't figured this out yet, if anyone knows where to find all 16 people to negotiate with help me out)

4. I love the screen, I like the movement. It's not laggy at all, and I can move the units fast.

5. My sound sucks out. What's up? Have they addressed this yet, because I know a lot of people have had problems. Mine sounds crappy if it works, sounds choppy. I want to hear my music dang it.

6. I can't watch the opening movie, it freezes if I try. I have no clue what is up. It was working fine, then I tried to mess with the sound a little, uninstalled and reinstalled, no it's whacked out.

7. Scenarios dissapointment sucks. I'm really pissed about that. I was really expecting to get to play WWII immediatley. If anyone has noticed this game has to be directed to scenarios for it to be really great fun. Because the differences in time frames can be huge. Especially with the specialized units that make no sense after a certain amount of time. And the fact that tech floats by so fast you have no time to catch it. I think a scenario would be better where you have a set tech tree that is small enough to be effective.

8. Anyone notice a big difference between Monarchy and Republic? Everyone still think Republic is superior? I'm a monarchy guy, I love to warmonger, which I can't do in Republic.

9. I like the leaders, very cool. How they just pop up, a like the minor wonders a lot. Golden ages rock, I think this is going to be huge in 1v1 games. Any civ in golden age can beat the crap out of another civ, unless they are severely outmatched.

10. I think that horses are far less important in this game, there are not as many huts to find. I like Swordsmen. I think iron is huge in the early game. Elite swordmans take down spearmen, even hoplites. Very cool.

11. Anyone like a tech path so far? Philosophy bonus has been stripped, I still like going for monarchy first.

12. I like the fact that they have never tried to simulate the future in Civilization. Unlike CTP where we have units that are disturbingly stupid and completely bogus. Televangelist? What the hell. I'm glad that we have some units that have foundation as actual affecting history and we are not trying to guess the fututre.

13. Anyone know how to make civs fight eachother? Mine seem to be being far too nice to eachother in my game. It's making me mad.

All in All, I think I got my moneys worth. And I'll enjoy this game for some years to come.