Espionage Options Extremely Disappointing!!

[Lorizael]

But in Civ III, if stealing techs is gonna be fair... it's also gonna have to be different than it was. That's why we're talking about it.

[vincentz]

IMHO, you should only be allowed to steal OR trade techs which you have the prereq. for.

If you are in the pre-stone age and the advanced babylonians want to give you Aerosol Spray technology because of your bad hygiene, it won't help you squat. UNLESS they give you all the preq. techs so you can understand that you are not supposed to smash the can with a rock in order to use the spray.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Lorizael
But in Civ III, if stealing techs is gonna be fair... it's also gonna have to be different than it was. That's why we're talking about it.

My personal opinion about the "ease" of tech taking in Civ2 is that it is more a result of a poor counterintelligence feature than an unfair tech stealing system.

Few players know the 20%/40% system for counterintelligence, and even fewer use it. The support of keeping 3 spies in every city (plus having to battle the urge to use some of those spies on the offensive) was so impractical in Civ2 that it was almost completely ignored. A more effective and convenient counterintelligence system could balance out the "unfair" tech stealing, without adding odd restrictions and arbitrary gambling to the business of tech stealing.

[Grim Legacy]

Hmmm the all-powerful stealing tech is in, but not the havoc wreaking options....hmmmm.

[HalfLotus]

Steal tech is quite powerful. Maybe it costs a boatload of cash to balance it out.

[Chronus]

The support of keeping 3 spies in every city

Spies didn't require support. (?)

Or are you simply referring to the construction of them?

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Chronus


Spies didn't require support. (?)

Or are you simply referring to the construction of them?

Yah, but it's a pain to have to build three spies when you can only build one thing per city.

There is still sabotage production, which as I explained with propaganda and investigate city can be very useful...

[ndnls]

In civ 2, the spy icon was not a single spy!

In keeping with the macro scale abstraction of civ gameplay, that spy represents a cell of spies, their informants, contacts, and masters back at your spy HQ. So its not unrealistic for a group of spies, over the course of a year, to gather together all of the info necessary to develop and use a technology. Also, no one has said anything about foreign nationals defecting to/ giving scientific data to an enemy nation. The Soviets were helped by an American scientist when they wanted to get the A-Bomb for example.

Sping is more complex than just some secret agent walking into a building and grabing a folder marked "secret techs,battle plans,
etc."

[Rommel393]

I'm overall pretty satisfied with the espionage they listed. Although I don't see the reasoning behind hacking the destroy improvement option. It is good that the steal tech option is gone though.

Do you think we'll be able to add/subtract espionage options through the editor?

[ajbera]

Originally posted by Rommel393
It is good that the steal tech option is gone though.

It is in.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by ndnls
In civ 2, the spy icon was not a single spy!

In keeping with the macro scale abstraction of civ gameplay, that spy represents a cell of spies, their informants, contacts, and masters back at your spy HQ. So its not unrealistic for a group of spies, over the course of a year, to gather together all of the info necessary to develop and use a technology. Also, no one has said anything about foreign nationals defecting to/ giving scientific data to an enemy nation. The Soviets were helped by an American scientist when they wanted to get the A-Bomb for example.

Sping is more complex than just some secret agent walking into a building and grabing a folder marked "secret techs,battle plans,
etc."

Uh... I'm not grasping your point. I understand this, now what does it have to do with espionage options in civ3?

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS
Hmmm.... I'm not sure how they were missed but aparently, some of the espionage missions were not mentioned in the update. The omitted missions:

Come on Mike, don't you understand the "For Your Eyes Only" over the Dan Magaha's folder? He's trying to keep covert some plan, and now you leak info so easily... Run for your life, Dan "James Bond" is on your tracks!

Ok, so now we have some old mission back from hell, and a lot of words were spent for nothing, not to mention the growth of an Ignore list (not mine).

BTW, I suppose some missions can be added by Editor or with the nearest Firaxis Civ III Patch (Improvement), but it remain to be seen if AI can use them properly. I remember I had some trouble with SMAC AI.

About some "attack" mission, you should consider that Spies in Civ II where something like a cross between real espionage net and some elite patrol like SAS: they can hit with precision force or manipulate/bribe/menace people to discover secrets.
Of course some Civ II spy abilities where too much powerful, but I suppose Firaxis know this and can have spent some time in tuning & balancing...

[Your.Master]

Originally posted by cyclotron7


Uh... I'm not grasping your point. I understand this, now what does it have to do with espionage options in civ3?

Other people who had poor understanding advanced concepts of mathematics including algebraic representation (i.e. 1 unit = ~1000 men or something, depending on the age) were arguing that steal tech was unrealistic. He was demonstrating how it is actually quite likely.

I don't mind the loss of Poison water supply...who ever used it? I suppose SOMEONE must have...

I'm disappointed at no sabotage...how many times have my small spy corps of about 6 units come and destroyed all of a key democratic city's religious structures and production in order to throw the democratic system into Anarchy?

Also disappointed at the lack of Nuclear devices...these things added uncertainty by taking out SDI's 100% defence.

Warning: game story ahead.

I remember my first deity game, where my Mongol allies decided to sneak attack me (I'm STILL trying to figure out how they did that in our alliance...I've Quadrillion-uple checked that we were allies) and capture every one of my cities on the main continent...his continent. After an unsuccessful defensive war (trying to import more advanced troops from my island cities to my unsuspecting but primitive front) at the front lines I basically went scorched earth policy and dropped 8 nukes from an aircraft carrier on captured cities that I had just sold the SDI defence from .

I started out with a more technologically advanced civ with a weaker military, but war-time situations forced me from democracy to fundamentalism and severely lessened my cities and thus science, not to mention the tax hike I needed so as not to lose any my islands, too. I launched several massive D-Day type invasions, one of which even allowed me to retake over half the continent and make peace before the mongols breached the treaty again (2 turns later!) and blitzkrieged my position and once again retook the cities (once again I pulled the Soviet manoeuver by selling improvements).

I must mention at this point that Mongolia was a democracy, so I couldn't bribe cities. I had planned on doing just that, with transports full of lots of spies and a few supporting tanks, but then Mongolia made it's switch.

My desperate gambit - I managed to sneak a nuke into the Mongol capital. I went to another part of the world and unloaded a diverted transport with 8 more tanks to destroy a tiny, restarted, seventh civ. Then my tank drove merrily into the Mongol capital, and Mongolia had an equally merry rebellion (actually, the capital moved for 5000 gold, but I did the same again to more successful effect).

From that point on I learned to never trust a Mongol...I allied with them to help them take Rome (former allies who got too demanding and reverted to peace), got my fair piece of the pie, and then the barrel of the Mongol war machine (a much bigger barrel since taking Rome, the most advanced civ at the time, just above me).

[HalfLotus]

Originally posted by Your.Master


Other people who had poor understanding advanced concepts of mathematics including algebraic representation (i.e. 1 unit = ~1000 men or something, depending on the age) were arguing that steal tech was unrealistic. He was demonstrating how it is actually quite likely.

The Soviet Union had a spy at Los Alamos Nat'l Labs when USA worked on atomic bomb. He sent the "tech" back home to USSR.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Your.Master
Other people who had poor understanding advanced concepts of mathematics including algebraic representation (i.e. 1 unit = ~1000 men or something, depending on the age) were arguing that steal tech was unrealistic. He was demonstrating how it is actually quite likely.

You have completely missed the point.

A civ advance such as Nuclear Fission is not a tech per se, but a body of accumulated knowledge with the scientists who understand this knowledge.

Also there is no mention that a spy unit is 1000 men. It merely is a presumption on a user's part. Please refrain from using unfounded assumptions as facts.