Thoughts on the replacement of Fundamentalism with Nationalism

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by Ribannah
There are plenty more examples, the oppression of homosexuality being one of the major issues. While I wouldn't call the USA a Theocracy, certain fundamentalist tendencies are obvious.

I wouldn't call them tendencies, but I see what you mean. This is true of most nations though. The oppression of homosexuality is another strange example. This is primarily caused by old-fashioned and religious people who simply don't believe in it. The general public does not have a problem with it. The only thing I find strange about it is the limitations on gay marriages and such.

This is a very weird statement IMHO.

I apologize. I wasn't totally clear here. I'll explain below.

First, because there is no conflict between the evolution theory and the main religions in the USA.

Yes there is, actually. The main religions of the U.S. believe in the creation of man (and woman), not evolution. There have been conflicts and even court cases because of this issue.

Second, children should be taught about all kinds of religion as well as science, so that they can make their own educated choice of what they want to believe.

Yes they should, but this is kept out of schools to allow parents to teach it their own way. Children are taught the basics of all major religions and are introduced to all the major theories, ie evolution. The rest is up to the parents.

I don't see how this could offend anyone but a fundamentalist (religeous, scientific or otherwise) - which should be ignored by a democratic government!

A religious person isn't necessarily a Fundamentalist. Same with science or otherwise. Democracy is the main reason why public schools don't teach in depth about religion. There is complete separation of church and state.

After reading your posts again, it occurs to me that you may be confusing public/private schools in the U.S. Public schools are limited in what they can teach: Children are taught the basics, but schools cannot have prayer sessions (children and teachers can still follow their beliefs, but they are not supported by the school)

Private schools can teach whatever they want. There are no limitations.

[Ribannah]

Thanks for the explanation, Sabre2th.

The educational system as you describe it, seems to put a lot of trust in the educational wisdom (& abilities) of the parents. Also, I don't think that private schools should be allowed to "teach what they want", there should be at least SOME guidelines.

About the theory of evolution: surely the almighty had plenty of time to put all the fossiles in before she put mankind on the surface of the planet

[Sabre2th]

Private schools can't exactly teach what they want. That was worded very badly. They still have to follow guidelines for classes and material, but they are allowed to teach religion, which is not allowed in public schools.

The bad part about putting so much trust in parents is that some parents aren't very parent-like.

[TechWins]

People making these statements about the US being a Fundamentalist reminds me of a similar situation. It's just like a fan who says "that ref is an idiot, there is no way that was a foul". The fan is outside of the game and doesn't have much valuable info and resources (sight, knowledge of the game, etc...) to make a statement like that. While the ref might be wrong, the fan is not inclined to make a statement about something they are in ignorant (lacking knowledge in something) in. My point is some non-Americans are making judgements on the US when they are very ignorant on the subject. It's ok to be ignorant but feeling free to state some outlandish comments on a subject you are ignorant is very inappropiate. So please, now this to everybody, keep your bold comments to yourself on a subject that you are ignorant in.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by TechWins
People making these statements about the US being a Fundamentalist reminds me of a similar situation. It's just like a fan who says "that ref is an idiot, there is no way that was a foul". The fan is outside of the game and doesn't have much valuable info and resources (sight, knowledge of the game, etc...) to make a statement like that. While the ref might be wrong, the fan is not inclined to make a statement about something they are in ignorant (lacking knowledge in something) in. My point is some non-Americans are making judgements on the US when they are very ignorant on the subject. It's ok to be ignorant but feeling free to state some outlandish comments on a subject you are ignorant is very inappropiate. So please, now this to everybody, keep your bold comments to yourself on a subject that you are ignorant in.

Although I don't really want to be a part of this argument, I just wanted to point out the the US is exporting cultures to pretty much everywhere in the world. The 'Coca-Cola / Big-Mac' culture, along with those painfully stupid sit-coms and talkshows are what most people make their judgments on. They're also the reason alot of people resent the US, because their country is being assimilated by a foreign culture. (and a rather dull one, at that)

[Sabre2th]

The United States is not pushing the culture thing, it's just happening.

I think it's funny that many people say the U.S. doesn't have any culture, then we have you saying that we're taking over with our culture.

[General Ludd]

Yes it is, Coca-Cola and similiar corporations are competing on the global market, and they do so by exporting their culture. The reason it becomes so popular is because many of these countries have a long history of wars and/or some sort of repression, and these corporations advertise the american ideals. Not to mention the marketing campaigns that cover the entire world. (the Atlantic Olympics is a good example)

Unfortunetly though, the 'Coca-Cola culture' consists solely of consuming brand names and nothing else, it results in conformity.

[Chronus]

They're also the reason alot of people resent the US, because their country is being assimilated by a foreign culture. (and a rather dull one, at that)

Hmmm . . . I have trouble with the words "resent" and "assimilate" in the context above. Perhaps I'm misreading the tone.

The bottom line is this: the U.S. is not FORCING its culture on the rest of the world. If our culture spreads to a particular region, its because the people find parts or most of it appealing and gladly accept it (i.e. they don't find it dull). I'm not saying our culture is the best or anything like that. What I am saying is that if "alot" (as you quote) of people embrace it (you use the word "assimilate" as if they're forced to embrace it) then why are you resentful? No one is forcing you to accept it.

[ChrisShaffer]

This is all *way* off topic for Civ3 now. However:

1) I'm from the United States of America. Many other people in the US have the same beliefs I do.
2) I believe the US is very much a fundamentalist country. It wraps itself in other garments, and it's melded with a corporate oligopoly, but it's very much a religious country.
3) The multinational corporations are taking over the world. Control of the media reduces choice. In many ways, the US *is* forcing culture on other peoples.
4) If you really want to know more about this, try searching for some progressive publications and reading a bit.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by ChrisShaffer
This is all *way* off topic for Civ3 now.

I was about to suggest that we get back on topic, but then i realised that the topic is dead... "Thoughts on the replacement of Fundamentalism with Nationalism" is rather irrelevant now that Nationalism has been revealed to not be a government...

[Mister Pleasant]

Yes it is, Coca-Cola and similiar corporations are competing on the global market, and they do so by exporting their culture. The reason it becomes so popular is because many of these countries have a long history of wars and/or some sort of repression, and these corporations advertise the american ideals. Not to mention the marketing campaigns that cover the entire world. (the Atlantic Olympics is a good example)

Unfortunetly though, the 'Coca-Cola culture' consists solely of consuming brand names and nothing else, it results in conformity.

Osweld, repeat after me

"Coca-cola is nothing but a goddamned drink"

It is not a culture, not a political statement, its a lame ass soft drink. In New Orleans, we drink a lot of beer. Do we complain that the Germans are trying to shove their culture down our throat? No. Its as bad as the trailer trash over here saying the rising popularity of telenovellas J.Lo and Mexican Food means "those hispanic people" are taking over. Samuel Hunington may be a complete jackass but he was right about one thing. Spreading coca cola and MickyDee's around the world will not topple dictatorships, improve the rights of women in Afgahnistan, or convince the Chinese government that free speech isn't so bad after all.

On behalf of the US, I will apologize for Boy Bands, talk shows, and idiotic action movies, however. Still if people just refused to listen/buy/and watch . . .

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
"On behalf of the US, I will apologize for Boy Bands...

And so you should.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Osweld
Although I don't really want to be a part of this argument, I just wanted to point out the the US is exporting cultures to pretty much everywhere in the world. The 'Coca-Cola / Big-Mac' culture, along with those painfully stupid sit-coms and talkshows are what most people make their judgments on. They're also the reason alot of people resent the US, because their country is being assimilated by a foreign culture. (and a rather dull one, at that)

It is rather a two-way street. Asian and European culture enter USA society just as fast. But noting fundamentalist elements in the USA is not the same as resenting the country, it is merely a point of interest with regard to the game.
Sabre2th: I think public schools should teach religion, too. Mine did. Teach ABOUT religion, that is, not drilling children into following one specific religion.

[Arent]

Although this discussion *is* offtopic I think it's quite interresting - after all civilisation
is to a certain extent political and if it encourages such discussions... hey civ is not
just a game!

...

Actually there is a *lot* antiamericanism (judging from people I know, magazines...)
The point is: While the USA is not pushing the culture thing and not encouraging
people to be dull (mmhh this proven? Dubya...) this antiamericanism serves as a
wonderfull way to get rid of all those talkshows, boygroups etc.
Furthermore free trade (there are a lot of people who want to regulate stock exchange
(ATTAC)), globalisation, kyoto protocoll, echelon etc. doesn't help.
There was a similar discussion a while ago. Hope I could help.

Arent

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Sabre2th: I think public schools should teach religion, too. Mine did. Teach ABOUT religion, that is, not drilling children into following one specific religion.

They do. They teach the basics of all the major religions of the world. Whether or not people actually pay attention is another thing...