Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

[Aidun]

The AI always begins to ask for peace when things go bad at their side...

Lets sharpen our swords once more to cut not only parchment...

Let's go for Aggies head, I'm sure our King would be delighted to have it on a pole before his casle...

Statues of GoW leaders are so nice when they are made of human flesh...

Soldier Aidun Cian of the Royal Spanish Army

[Arnelos]

I'm starting to get frustrated with Legoland. I agree with BigFree that they are likely helping GoW and ND at this point, greatly (and rightly) fearing a GS/RP victory.

To stir the pot and perhaps get Legoland to rethink this decision (assuming it's the one they've made), I have been chatting with ZargonX about that we are only allied with GS for the purpose of bailing us out of this war and that we must pay them with a little land on Bob in return... however, we are interested in helping Legoland long-term.

Since ZargonX hasn't been online lately, I chatted with Kloreep. The key piece was this:

Arnelos> is ZargonX ever going to come back online so I can talk to him about us potentially helping Lego in the future?
Kloreep> Dunno.
Arnelos> afterall, our agreement with GS is to bail our asses out of this war in return for some land on Bob... that does not mean we are permanently forced to help them win the game
Kloreep> He's been busy recently, GF's back was hurt...
Arnelos> but if we can't get ANY form of talk with Legoland about future cooperation, we'll probably have little choice but to resort to GS as a long-term partner
Kloreep> I'll pass this on to our forum.
Arnelos> thanks

Let's hope that gets the ball rolling at Legoland again. I want them to believe that a long-term locked partnership between RP and GS does not exist and need not be formed unless Legoland forces us by their lack of cooperation to form it. In essence, I want Legoland to believe that THEY get to choose whether we will be helping them or helping Gathering Storm. If Legoland does not do enough to help us, they know we'll walk and go help GS rather than them.

This gives Legoland and incentive to help us... after which we can certainly continue to play the ruse of helping them, while in reality helping GS far more and, in the end, siding when GS when it will truly count.

[Arnelos]

The Attempted Seduction of Legoland

My goal here was simply to construct a version of our goals that is close enough to the truth to be believable, close enough to what I think some people can live with to be agreeable, vague enough that if things work out a bit differently (especially in how much of a "small" piece of Bob that GS gets), people won't be able to object until it's too late, and seductive enough for Legoland to at least not work against us.

The next chat I need to have is another chat with Beta about whether Vox would truly be willing to go along with such a plan and whether they would willing to support it (and how much support they could provide).

Please keep in mind that not all of the claims I am making in this chat are entirely honest, ESPECIALLY where Gathering Storm is concerned. It is absolutely critical that Legoland not know about our long-term deal with Gathering Storm. Please keep this in mind.

Arnelos> hello
ZargonX> hey Arn!
ZargonX> heard you were looking for me
Arnelos> indeed
ZargonX> sorry, I know I have been scarce as of late
Arnelos> it's ok
Arnelos> I just need SOMEONE from Legoland
Arnelos> because we really need to talk about this long-term stuff
ZargonX> yes, indeed
Arnelos> the situation is quite simple...
Arnelos> We would be willing to be a trade partner and aid those looking toward winning the game... we would PREFER that the one(s) we did that with were looking for a stable playing out of the rest of the game
Arnelos> in which RP remains alive and in possession of its home territory
ZargonX> of course
Arnelos> Obviously, for now, this clearly leaves GoW and ND out of the equation until such point that they might agree to such
ZargonX> do you fear GS will try to exert more influence on Bob at the conclusion of the war?
ZargonX>
Arnelos> my concern is more that I'd like to prevent a major conflict after this one
Arnelos> this one has nearly swallowed us already and if not for GS' intervention, it would have
Arnelos> GS may attempt to do something along the lines of what you are suggesting, but we figure that they're likely to be more kind to us than most because we do not represent a long-term threat to them
ZargonX> well, as we have stated quite plainly before: Lego has no interest in settling Bob
ZargonX> so, in that aspect, we are more than willing to discuss situations that would lead to stability
Arnelos> our agreement with GS covers mostly that GS does not want to see Neu Demogyptica win the game (neither do we) and while we're paying them some territory for their assistance, their main reason for being involved is to prevent an ND victory
ZargonX> so what is RP's vision for the post-war world?
Arnelos> GS also stated that while we should gift them cities for their own defense, they promised to gift those cities back... so far they've kept their word on that...
Arnelos> that said, they'll obviously be keeping a piece of land to the north of us... their main concern is that their home continent is too small to compete
Arnelos> Our vision for the long-term is that those who are seeking to win the game by force of arms be put back in their cages (read GoW and ND) and that the game rather be decided by race to culture/diplo/space victory. This would be done primarily through something of a system of collective security
Arnelos> In other words, RP would agree to trade and be friendly with Lego as well as GS (as opposed to GS monopolizing our attention, as we believe they want)
Arnelos> Additionally, if any power were to attack another with intent to swallow it whole and gain a further advantage over the rest of the world, we could help others to prevent this
ZargonX> so a sort of tri-balance of world power
Arnelos> something like that
ZargonX> each keeping the other in check
Arnelos> and allow the best builders to win the game
ZargonX> it is an optimal vision
Arnelos> yes... it would be difficult
Arnelos> thankfully, we have seperate continents, this makes it easier
Arnelos> especially when RR's hit the scene
Arnelos> Legoland would obviously keep its own enormous continent, which you could EASILY defend through RR's
Arnelos> your main concern, we understand would be whether any power gained too much power on Bob
Arnelos> which is a multi-power continent
ZargonX> well, obviously the idea of a 1-power Bob would be quite worrisome
Arnelos> indeed
ZargonX> or even a 2-power, with one holding the majority
ZargonX> I would imagine that would worry GS as well
Arnelos> this is why GS is in this war
Arnelos> of course, GS also desires to win the game... they believe that cannot be done with their home continent alone... so they desire a piece of Bob
Arnelos> We have succeeded thusfar in suggesting that it should be a small piece
Arnelos> We figure that the optimal situation is one in which all remaining world powers are either committed to long-term stability or are too weak to damage it
ZargonX> and you do not worry that they would try to conquer you if they had the military advantage after this war?
Arnelos> actually, no.... we honestly believe that GS takes their "honor code" so completely seriously that they are unlikely to do, both because it is not in their nature and, more importantly, because they'd never live it down
ZargonX>
ZargonX> Guess that's a good a reason as any
ZargonX> well, the situation you describe is one that I think the people of Lego would be agreeable to
Arnelos> We have also been willing to discuss the matter with Vox Controli of them receiving a piece of Bob as well
ZargonX> however, getting to the point at which it can be implemented is the tough part
Arnelos> Vox is small and weak... not a threat and unlikely to become one. Even if GoW or ND (one of them) were to get wiped out, their presence could potentially be replaced in part by Vox... dividing the land and preventing anyone from getting too much
ZargonX> ahh... a 2-continent Vox... their dream come true
Arnelos> (chuckle)
ZargonX> well, as I said, it does sound an optimal solution
ZargonX> in the meantime, I am more than happy to take your ideas to my people
Arnelos> now, for such a vision to be realized... first, RP needs to survive the immediate conflict and the ND/GoW alliance must be re-contained to prevent both their victory AND to prevent them from making the rest of the game a long warfest
Arnelos> the larger problem is obviously going to be whether ND and/or GoW is willing to live long-term under such circumstances
Arnelos> this is the main reason we'd want Vox to enter the continent... to take the place of one of them if such an arrangement cannot be worked out
Arnelos> because we'd rather that GS didn't get too much of the land
ZargonX> yes, I don't know if either of them would be too happy watching others build their way to vicotry around them
Arnelos> this is the problem
Arnelos> GoW, for one, is committed to fighting wars
Arnelos> they will be a perpetual security risk
Arnelos> so we're probably going to need Vox
Arnelos> GS can have *some* of Bob, but we'd prefer not much of it
Arnelos> as for us... our state is so incredibly weakened by this war that even if we gain territory back and have time to settle/re-settle it, we are like Vox... too far behind in the building game to conceivably WIN a builder victory
ZargonX> I think we've all been amazed by what GS can do with only a little space...
ZargonX> so I think even a small chunk would be sufficient for them
Arnelos> indeed
Arnelos> any chunk they claim is likely to be corrupt as hell unless they get a GL to build their FP on it, anyways
ZargonX> so, I guess the real question is: do you truly feel the war will end in your and GS' favor?
Arnelos> the liklihood of us at least SURVIVING this initial war has been increasing
ZargonX> you believe it will end with some sort of detante?
Arnelos> it's possible
Arnelos> the problem is going to be GoW and ND's willingness to do that
Arnelos> it's also going to be GS' desire for at least a piece of land
Arnelos> We think it can be done if we can win, just enough, that we can't defeat ND and GoW, they can't defeat us, and the piece of land (mostly empty) to the very east can be claimed by GS
Arnelos> problem then is that the situation is not long-term tenable... the war will restart as soon as either side has an advantage again
ZargonX> a stalemate, as it were
Arnelos> something like that
Arnelos> at the very least, we get our land back
Arnelos> and GoW and ND are re-contained
ZargonX> and negotiations can begin
Arnelos> that's a hope... but I'm not counting on it
Arnelos> afterall... GoW is going to be a PERPETUAL nuisance
Arnelos> especially if they feel caged and unable to win
Arnelos> the liklihood that they'll just go berserk for the lack of better options will go up
ZargonX> quite probably
Arnelos> which means they may need to be wiped out, in such a situation... we would prefer for Vox to get most of their land
Arnelos> in order to maintain global balance
Arnelos> now...
ZargonX> and you've spoken to Vox of this already?
Arnelos> not on the latest
Arnelos> Beta and I *have* spoken before about the possibility, but some time ago
Arnelos> besides... Beta is unlikely to talk seriously about it until our victory over GoW seems more likely
ZargonX> true
Arnelos> though we have approached the subject
Arnelos> My main concern is whether Legoland can first live with such an arrangement... so that we prevent a conflict with you.
Arnelos> and whether, if it looks like we might be headed for such a thing (which is our goal), we might, at the very least, be able to expect that you will not work against it
ZargonX> as I said, the situation you've described would seem amenable to me
My main goal is to seek something that I believe is tenable for ALL remaining world powers. Anything short of that will mean another war.
ZargonX> we are builders, after all
Arnelos> Legoland's interest seems to be primarily preventing a complete GS victory or a complete ND/GoW victory... as either might then turn on Legoland (and likely would)
ZargonX> both are concerns, of course
ZargonX> it would be foolish not to worry about such things
Arnelos> this is why we believe Bob divided between RP, Vox, and a small piece to GS (along with perhaps even ND and/or GoW) would be likable to Legoland
Arnelos> it sure beats the alternatives
ZargonX> it would definately have benefits
Arnelos> the problem is that while I think both RP and GS are open to this, it is currently unlikely that ND or GoW is
Arnelos> they're still playing for keeps...
ZargonX> for the moment, I can take these thoughts to my countrymen for debate
Arnelos> that would be good
ZargonX> if such a goal is agreed on, we can work towards it
Arnelos> that would be good
ZargonX> in whatever way is possible
ZargonX> We should meet again in the near future after I've spoken with the others
ZargonX> and once the war has a more definitive course in sight
Arnelos> yes
Arnelos> the war is currently very much in flux
Arnelos> we are gaining ground, but it is still an uncertain thing
ZargonX> always is, isn't it
ZargonX> ?
Arnelos> that's how war works
ZargonX> we'll just have to make the ISDG war a little more definitive
Arnelos> ideally, yes
ZargonX> excellent
Arnelos> alright, I think we're done for now
ZargonX> sounds good
ZargonX> I'll post our discussion in my forum, if that's fine with you...
Arnelos> please
Arnelos> go for it
ZargonX> good good
ZargonX> in that case, until next time!

[Nuclear Winter]

Hehe Arn ... you are a diplo-playing demon.
I´d hate to have an alliance with you on ANY game.

[Nuclear Winter]

By the way, I want to ask the person in charge of contact with GS, whoever is it, to PLEASE get us screenshots from the CURRENT turn. Me and BigFree are hunting in the dark, so to say. If we really want to have sausages and green tea for dinner, we need screenies from GS, and possibly from a spy mission in Nd and GoW´s embassy (we could contact Vox about it).

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Nuclear Winter
By the way, I want to ask the person in charge of contact with GS, whoever is it, to PLEASE get us screenshots from the CURRENT turn. Me and BigFree are hunting in the dark, so to say. If we really want to have sausages and green tea for dinner, we need screenies from GS, and possibly from a spy mission in Nd and GoW´s embassy (we could contact Vox about it).

Agreed. Screenshots should be shared each turn. In fact, it might be advisable to send screenshots to the ally with each turn at the same time you send the save file.

If anyone sees anyone from GS in chat, feel free to approach them with this. I'll go ahead do so myself, but the sooner we get this agreed to, the better.

[BigFree]

Not good news, but I will forward this message to Shiber.

I'm afraid I've not followed the PTWDG for some time. If Theseus is now in charge, you can expect things to be a little slow diplomatically, as he has very little time for civ during the week. Last I checked in Shiber was the most active member of Gathering Storm.

Hope this helps.


Dominae

BigFree wrote on 31-10-2003 15:04:
Hey Dom

I sent Theseus two PM's regarding the last turn for the PTWDG. He has not replied to either. I let him know about the things that OPD and I had discussed while playing RP's turn. I asked Theseus to gift back Toledo and NM the same turn after accepting them. Instead, we were offered two old Vox cities "unaccepted." What is going on over there? I have also asked for screen shots so that we can coordinate better and those have never arrived, not for one turn, and I have asked many times.

Who is in charge over there now?

BigFree

[Aidun]

Arnelos, great work! I fully agree with Nuc.

Aidun

PS: Makes the C3C game at MZO even more interesting: competing on the diplomatic level with you.

[Aidun]

Sorry for reporting so late, but I didn't notice it because every time I sought access to these forums, I had to login to Poly again sos that I didn't see the main page, and no pop-up appeared. Maybe it is still of any use for those of you who do the governing tasks.

Arnelos is seemingly out of commission, and BigFree's PM box is full.

ON our side, GS participation is waaay down, and I am hard-pressed during the work week.



Oh well, life goes on... We have the save, so watch for an update.

Theseus / Richard

My reply:

Theseus,

Thank you for your message, I transferred it but today to Arnelos and BigFree because I was hardly on 'Poly during the weekend and did not notice it until now (got no pop up as is usual).

I hope the delay is not critical.
In case messages of BigFree and Arnelos did not reach you, I hereby inform you that we are in great need of information from your team about its tactics. Please send us some screenshots od the current turn and tell us what you are up to, so we can anticipate on it and we can mutually assist each other. Could we also exchange screenshots als on a more regular basis, such as every turn?
We got info that our alliance is going to face a big attack from ND and GoW and only by closely cooperating we can drive them back from where they have come.

Aidun

Diomingo Cian, seemingly instant diplomat to GS

[Togas]

from Arrian

Togas,

In case you haven't heard already, we've got a major problem. As feared, Legoland has positioned forces on Bob with the express purpose of defending GoW/ND's homelands against any GS attack. They sent notes to that effect with the save, in response to our recent landing near Yellowknife. In other words, we've been screwed. For whatever reason, Legoland has decided that they want ND & GoW to win this war.

I do not believe they are bluffing. Attacking them would most likely trigger their GA, and they know we can't really do anything to them directly.

Therefore, our situation has grown extremely grim. GS isn't exactly weak, but we cannot fight ND, GoW AND Lego's expeditionary force. Plus, as you may have noticed, we haven't really been at our best lately. Our active membership has dwindled, and our generals (Theseus and I) have been making mistakes.

Now our only way of turning the tide has been Blocked (pun intended). I think the best we can do at this point is maintain the status quo, but even that I'm unsure about. If we cannot damage GoW's homeland, they can just keep doing Horse -> Rider upgrades with Leos, which goes a long way toward cancelling our production advantage.

I think we need to consider an exit strategy for this war, Togas. I know that we promised to protect RP, and I can honestly say we thought we could do it. I wish we could rebuild Spain. I really wanted to. But I no longer think that's a viable option.

That leaves North Stormia. Do you think that RP would be willing, for the sake of its survival and the denial of its current holdings to our enemies, to relocate?

This is not an official request. I'm just talking out loud here. But things are coming to a head in a hurry. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

-Arrian

[Togas]

Arrian,

Understood.

Evacuating is our absolute last option. Before we go there, we should try to work out a peace deal with ND/GoW that would allow us to keep our current holdings.

My main concern is the rumor that there is no salt peter on Stormia. We also have rare luxuries in Spain that both of our nation need to keep.

But I have to be honest, interest on our team has dwindled as well. We're not far from just saying "screw it all" and fighting ND/GoW until they destroy us ... but ultimately I don't think that would help GS very much. If we can keep some land/luxuries/resources, it'll help both of our teams more in the long run.

--Togas

[Togas]

I understand, Togas. If we can negotiate a settlement that leaves RP some Bobian luxury cities, great. But I have to admit I very much doubt ND & GoW will accept any such deal. They have the leverage. That was something we had hoped to change with an invasion... and now that's blown up in our faces.

The Saltpeter thing worries us too, of course. But the fact is that if we *do* withdraw to Stormia, saltpeter probably isn't a big issue. We'd be hoping to prolong the game past the era of Cav & Muskets.

I guess the next step is to ask some of our guys to start talks with GoW about a possible peace deal? Or do you think we should approach ND? Or both at the same time?

-Arrian

[Togas]

Arrian,

It's a pretty major decision. I'm going to ask my team for their thoughts on it before we take any drastic action.

Feel free to start with ND. Despite our animosity with GoW, we have received a few truce offers from them in the past, and we still have some strong out-of-game relationships with them that might prove useful in helping for a smooth end of the war.

But please let us know what GS's final position on the war is. If you guys decide to that it's unwinable we will respect that and do what we can to move to the next phase.

--Togas

[Togas]

Will do. I personally think our position is untenable, but I agree our teams' other members need to consider the question and decide what to do. GS is in the process of doing that, but since that discussion inevitably included a "what if RP moves to Stormia" scenario, I thought it was high time we asked for your thoughts. Prior to this, that option was widely viewed as an unlikely option... just something to kick around in case things really went badly. Well, in my opinion, things just did.

I'm looking ahead a bit, though. We can hold out a while yet. It's possible we could hold out for a long time, but I don't think that status quo will do. Eventually, we will fall too far behind in tech.

Keep us informed of any discussions you may have with GoW, and I'll ask we do the same w/regard to talks with ND.

-Arrian

p.s. **** Lego. **** them gently with a chainsaw.

[Arnelos]

FROM CORT HAUS OF GS (copying from Legoland):

(I warned GS this was coming based upon the intelligence we got from Legoland earlier... they intend to defend the GoW homeland, the bastards)

Hi Arnelos,

We recieved this from Lego today :

Dear Gathered Storms,

Seems there is a breakthrough decision lying ahead both of us and you
in the game. We feel we should make it clear where we stand and what
our intentions are with respect to the current situation. Considering
all the fuss and ill will about past public "manifests", we would like
to let you know in private only.

We are sending you our "message" in two versions. Both basically mean
the very same, but side by side, they probably better fit the purpose
of conveying a "serious message" in a "game played for fun".

First, the version "with a British foreign office slant" (as redstar1,
its author, put it):

Our dearest chums of Gathering Storm,

After having a chat with some of the chaps across the sea, its been
pointed out that you have a jolly large force somewhere near
Yellowknife.

Far be it for us to interfere but we have to say that we aren't quite
tip-top with the idea of you having a picnic so close to GoW's back
yard. In fact, we are afraid to say that its really just not on old
boy.

We do believe that we still have a common interest as well as a
lucrative trade deal. Were you to start a bit of a scrap up north then
we would really have to rethink. I'm sure you understand we can't
really do deals with anyone we don't think is sound.

In short, we'd like you to have a think about the old gameplan. If you
want a cup of tea and a chat just let us know.

Yours Imperiously,
Lego

And the more "formal" version that would, sent alone, probably sound
harsher than we'd intend it to sound.

Honourable Nation of Gathering Storm,

It has been brought to our attention that a strong force of your War
Chicken in full arms just recently landed on the Eastern coast of Bob,
roughly South of Yellowknife.

Although we can naturally not be sure about the plans and intentions
of your generals, we feel the only reason for such a force to land
there would be an attack at the "homeland" cities of GoW and ND.

We are sorry to inform you that if such an attack was to happen or
become imminent, we would consider it an act threatening Legoland's
long-term interests, and as such would cause our nations to enter the
state of war, with the inevitable consequences for our current trade
deals, with no further warning.

Respectfully,
The Senate of Legoland

We would like to stress that our position at the moment is driven by
our long-term goals and plans, not by any grudges we'd hold against
your team. Under different circumstances, we might find ourselves on
your side of the barricade.

Legoland