Announcement

**Togas** · January 28, 2003, 13:49

History Guy -- Set up a chat with ND. Tell ND that we have Mysticism and will soon have writing (within 4 turns or so). Find out what they will offer us for either or both of these techs. Begin making a deal.

Find out how things are with Lux, if they have a "three way tech alliance" with GoW (send them a copy of that PM from Panzer that adaMada posted), if they are having more trouble with Lux or if Lux left. Ask them how they're getting along with GoW.

Chat settlement issues with them, but once we get those two cities established (2 & 3) we no longer need a settlement agreement ... we may push for more land to the north east.

jdjdjd -- Verify with Lux that they're not supposed to trade us Horseback Riding for Writing if GoW is trading with us. Tell them that GoW has made an offer now for HBR to us and we want to know if they'd be breaking their treaty with GoW if they traded it to us.

Try to see what deal you can get for Mysticism. Chat about it a bit, see what they'll offer. See what you can come up with.

Godking See if GS is researching Writing and if so, how soon they'll have it. Tell them that we believe that Vox may have a contact with a team on our continent and if we trade Writing it may get to Vox before GS can trade it. Find out if they want to agree that we will both release Writing to the world at the same time.

adaMada -- Good work on the GoW negotiations. We may end up taking their deal after all and get HRB + gold + them leaving.

--Togas

**Togas** · January 28, 2003, 14:05

adaMada -- Please post here the offers from GoW for leaving and HBR for Writing.

--Togas

**Togas** · January 28, 2003, 14:15

History Guy -- Ask ND whether or not they traded any partial map information with GoW. Tell them frankly that we are concerned about GoW claiming they got information from ND that ND could only partially have, as the rest could not possibly have been obtained from ND's scout. Tell them frankly that we are concerned about GoW having cheated. (quoted from Arnelos because I'm too lazy to retype it myself

)

--Togas

**Togas** · January 28, 2003, 18:59

adaMada -- Contact GoW and tell them that Togas is seriously considering their proposal but he would like to add an agreement, which can be mutual if they so choose:

Add a "no trade writing/riding for 20 turns" clause. The # of turns can be changed. Max 40, Min 10. We would promise not to trade Riding. They would promise not to trade Writing for the specified period.

--Togas

**GodKing** · January 28, 2003, 19:34

DeepO has taken over from Mesh for GS.

Will attempt to get the info. However, to do so I will most likely have to release when we expect to research it.

**Togas** · January 28, 2003, 19:52

Originally posted by GodKing
DeepO has taken over from Mesh for GS.

Will attempt to get the info. However, to do so I will most likely have to release when we expect to research it.

Fixed.

Let them know that we will get it in 3 turns. If they will get it 6+ turns from now, let's not make a deal. If it's in the 6-10 range, we might be able to promise that we won't trade it with the nation that we think has contact with Vox.

--Togas

**History Guy** · January 29, 2003, 20:49

This message was despatched to Gastronome Neecap, who took it by horse to Neu Theban:

My dear friend, Picahulu, Wise and Gracious Ambassador from the great Arabian Sultan Borc,

To continue my earlier letter of two days previous, in which I described the attack upon my person, I follow up with this.

As I spake to ye earlier, Milord Togas above all wishes to have a discussion with your Sultan, the great and noble Borc, and is certain that he also wishes to speak with Milord. There is much now to speak of, especially on our border policy. I have sent previously the address to which we would ask the grace of your Sultan's presence. Please do respond on this, and act on it at once, for in this world we can only find those whom we can trust. As soon as possible, may we arrange a date for this most important meeting? This is what we find most urgent as of now.

Our glorious and wise philosophers and magi have made marvellous discoveries also. Mysticism has taught us many things, a great revealing of all great things above us, in the language we would understand. This was discovered under divine inspiration, and is thus very, very precious. Would you care to make an offer for it? We wish to spread the good word of the faith of Spain.

Also, our wise men are quickly advancing our knowledge of Writing. In, oh, say, four short turns this knowledge will be ours, and our culture will flourish anew, spreading over this region, and our barbarian enemies that hide in the woods will be awed by it's glory. This, also we wish to trade when we have it.

Finally, we wish to speak of international matters.

We wish to know firstly, do you have a three-way technology alliance with the Glory of War, as the Ambassador of the Chinese, Senor Panzer, suggests? We would be very interested in hearing more on this, if it is true. Also, we should like to enquire whether or not you did trade any partial map information with the Chinese in your foreign work. To be frank, we are concerned that the Chinese have information from you that only you could have given them, and this does bother us. Indeed, we find it somewhat distressing. Frankly, we worry that the Chinese have used methods that are simply not quite right to use. [ooc] We worry whether they have cheated or not. [/ooc] Please do comment on this as soon as humanly possible, for it is quite distressing, as I said.

Finally, we wish to ask of Lux Invicta, your neighbors who have, you tell us, violated your territory, and have thus provoked war. We trust that they have withdrawn. Please do tell us what has happened, for all of us, Togas King especially, are quite concerned about you, our best of friends.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador from Milord Togas, King of Iberia, Overlord of the Visigoths, Flattener of the Vandals

-

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador to Neu Demogyptica

**jdjdjd** · January 29, 2003, 21:49

Lux Invicta

Here is BFM's most recent PM:

Hello jdjdjd, Friend of Lux!

So - ND is complaining to you about one little warrior? Well - it is true that we saw a yellow line in the jungle, but we did not cross it to annoy them. It was merely the shortest route between A and B. Actually, we did not mind, since scouts of ND have roamed our lands since the beginning of time. But we don't complain. Hell, no. We have something better to do. Like trading.

We have, indeed, an agreement with GoW not to trade HBR to you =unless they don't trade it to you=. Since this has been the case - the deal was cancelled, I presume - we talked to you about the trade. What worries me here is that GoW seems to know about this, though the messages I sent you were marked confidential. We need to talk about that - do you think there is a spy around? We sure did not tell them of our Alliance, or of the trade.

GoW seems not to believe us. Therefore, I need you to confirm to them that we held off the Lux-RP trade until you cancelled the GoW-RP trade. Only when he receives such information from two sides (from you and from us), he will be convinced that he's seeing ghosts. Therefore I ask you - can you send GhengisFarb a PM, with a copy to me, confirming this info? Thank you in advance.

We would like to stress that we look forward to trading with you in the future. We are nearing the completion of Mysticism, so we have no interest in that tech. However, we might be able to acquire the Mathematics tech soon, which we offer to you for trade. We have information that ND will acquire it, too, however, and we ask you to get it from us. ND is getting stronger, and we fear that trading with them will not put that to a halt. They have us boxed in, and we fear that war may be immiment. We have some troops standing by, though, so they'd better not attack anytime soon. But... if things start to heat up, can we count on your support?

In the meantime, your despot Togas and my president Trip have had a meeting. Trip told me that Togas said you have some troubles with GoW in the scouting department. Is there any indication that their units might come our way? If so, please tell us.

Your friend in the North,

BFM

1. He confirms they entered ND territory but only to take shorter route. He state ND is boxing them in and has been in their territory. They fear a war may break out. - They remind us of the Alliance, signed on 1/18 - 2390BC its 2070 BC - thats 8 turns of a 20 turn trade.
2. He says they do have a no trade clause on HBR, unless GoW does not trade it. They can trade it if we choose to not trade with GoW. To me, that is not our concern. But he wants a statement from us to GF that we are not trading with GoW. Did we say no GoW? Can we still trade to Lux?
3. He mentions that GoW knows of the possible trade...did someone on our team tell GoW of private negotiations I have with Lux? I swear that pisses me off! I have posted my PMs and BFM's and in them they talk of confidentiality! I'll look like an a$$! I assume it was us based on all the discussion about the chat with GoW.
4.They do not want Mysticism, they claim they are researching it. I suppose they may still want Writing, though he does not mention it.
5. They think they will have Math soon, and are asking we trade it from them and not ND.

What are my instructions? I am sending him a brief I'll look into it note.

**Arnelos** · January 30, 2003, 00:01

Originally posted by jdjdjd
3. He mentions that GoW knows of the possible trade...did someone on our team tell GoW of private negotiations I have with Lux? I swear that pisses me off! I have posted my PMs and BFM's and in them they talk of confidentiality! I'll look like an a$$! I assume it was us based on all the discussion about the chat with GoW.

FYI, it was my goof and I take full responsibility for it. I was using it as a bargaining tactic and I'd forgotten that we'd promised Lux not to mention even the POSSIBILITY of a trade with them to GoW.

Thankfully, I think it convinced GoW that Lux cannot be trusted (if we're going to make ourselves look like asses for my screwing up, we might as well have gotten something out of it

) and additinoally convinced GoW to give us a better deal.

adaMada did an EXCELLENT job of making the best of the situation and getting some very nice deals out of GoW.

As I said above, however, it's my fault for forgetting we'd promised not to tell GoW of the possibility of a trade with Lux for HB.

I'm not sure what we should say to Lux to make up for the fact that I goofed in the negotiations with GoW. Just tell them that one of our members accidentally slipped to GoW in a team chat and has been properly admonished... it will not happen again.

For my part, I realize this screwed things up for you, jdjdjd. I'm sorry about that... I think the registry of things we've promised each team that Togas has started as a seperate thread will help to prevent anyone else from making my stupid mistake.

I honestly think being honest about what happened might work here... it was human error, we're sorry, and we're instituting a system that should prevent it in the future.

Another thing I think we can do, btw... is that there should ideally only be ONE diplomat making communication with another team. It's fine for others to make suggestions, but I'm sure adaMada found it highly frustrating that I, Ninot, dejon, and half a dozen other people were all saying stuff to GhengisFarb and Panzer... some of it should have been said and much of it shouldn't have.

Sersiously, all team communication to other teams about PTW-related stuff should be conducted by a single individual at any given time and whatever that individual learns or shares should be reported here (much as with my chats with Nimitz). In the future, I'm going to respect adaMada's place as ambassador to GoW as I really should have done more that night.

That's enough on that issue...

5. They think they will have Math soon, and are asking we trade it from them and not ND.

We should trade with ND for it. We should trade Writing to Lux for contact with Vox and anything else we can get out of them.

**GodKing** · January 30, 2003, 11:30

DeepO - I will be out for the next couple of days if my schedule works like I suspect it will. So if you can please send any corispondance to both myself and Togas (who by cc of this message I am letting him know of my absence as well). I should be back on Monday if it works out. Thanks. Appologies for any inconvenience.

GK

DeepO wrote on 30-01-2003 09:31:
Thanks, Godking, for this message.

It certainly is interesting to us, allow me to post it to our board, and reply you later with better-thought out things. I do know our research, of course, but I both don't know when exactly we will get writing, nor if we would be willing for such a deal (I can't see why not, although it would favor you more then it would favor us, as you have more contacts.)

Let me get back to you this evening, in the mean time I wish you well.

DeepO

Dear DeepO:

We here on the RP team have a concern that is of interest to both of our teams. I suspect that Vox may have a contact with a team on our continent. We do not know this for a fact, but our intelligence has come to the conclusion that there is a high probability of this being so, if not through a land bridge, then through an area of land that is close enough to be visible from each side.

We suspect that you are researching the new concept of Writing. We ourselves are researching this technology. We have already made arrangements to sell this technology, and fear that Vox may acquire it prior to your ability to sell it to them. We would be willing to delay our sale a couple of turns if you will agree to the following:

“RP and GS will release the technology of Writing to the world at the same time, in the year_____”.

By this we assume that you will have it researched within the next 4-6 turns. If this is not the case, we will of course to what is best for our nation. If it is slightly higher than the 4-6 turns, say 6 to 10 or so, we will see what we can do to not trade it to the nation in particular until the appropriate time, but no promises as I will have to clear this with our Lord Togas. In order for this to work, we need the following information from you: Are you researching Writing? If so, when will you have it? As a gesture of good faith, I will tell you that we are researching it and expect to have it within 3 turns. Please of course keep this information confidential within your team.

As an additional note, we do appreciate your warning regarding the barbarian tribes encountered. We ourselves are encountering barbarians and have sent several war parties to deal with them. May you deal with the heathens you encounter most effectively.

Peace between us;

GodKing

Diplomat to the Pharaoh of Gathering Storm
Royal Chamber Pot Cleaner to our Lord Togas, Despot of the Tribes of Spain, Subjugator of the Heathen Visigoths, Purveyor of all that is Good and Holy, and maker of a fine beer called Togas Bru.

**Togas** · January 30, 2003, 14:37

FIRST

adaMada -- Inform GoW that we have agreed to option #3, that it should begin THIS TURN. We will expect to receive HBR and in 3-4 turns (when we get writing) we will trade it for the specified amount of gold. BE SPECIFIC with the amount of gold we expect, and that the trade will be voidable if they continue to remain in our territory. Instruct them to move their western warrior (basher?) north, north, north, etc., until they have entered the jungle.

THEN

jdjdjd -- Thank Lux for their quick response. Write a PM to GoW's ambassador and CC it to Lux that states that "Lux Invicta held off the Horseback Riding for Writing trade with us until it was certain that our team and GoW were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfear with the RP-GoW trade and has only made themselves available to us as a back-up."

(that should satisfy Lux and still stir up the GoW enough to realize that Lux would have undercut them if they hadn't given in to us.)

Inquire with Lux about the possibility of aquiring contact with Vox ... what would it cost us?

Remind them of our hope for peace between them and ND. We will honor our alliance, however, we have no spare troops to send now and would not be useful if a war broke out soon. Stress to them the importanace of peace at this phase in our history.

--Togas

**jdjdjd** · January 30, 2003, 22:03

Here is me speaking out of the other side of my mouth to BFM:

Hello My Friend:

I have some dissapointing news, however, things may work out well in the end.

1. Unfortunately, the powers that be have decided to make the deal for HBR with GoW. This is against my advice. Nonetheless, it is to be.

2. I am going to tell GoW's ambassador, I will copy you on the PM, that you negotiated in good faith, and only after I advised you the deal fell through with GoW. Also, that you did nothing to "steal that deal".

3. I am in a position to make a trade to you for Contact with Vox. Would you be willing to trade that to us? and for what?

We will stand behind the Alliance. We hope there is peace, because an early war can be damaging and we do not have the military units available to be able to help too much.

Please let me know if you have further questions. Please let me know what trade is possible for Contact with Vox.

Thank you in advance for being patient with your Southern friend,

I remain,

jdjdjd, Friend and Ambassador to Lux Invicta

Here is the PM to GoW:

Hello Dear Panzer:

I am jdjdjd of España (RP), Ambassador to the Ottoman's(LI).

I am writing on behalf of the Ottoman's, to clear up a misconception that is out there and may hurt your opinion of LI. Lux Invicta never sought to trade us HBR for Writing until after I had approached BigFurryMonster about it. That was after I was told it was certain that our team and yours were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfere with the RP-GoW trade and only negotiated after we told them the trade was off.

Please let us know should you have any questions.

I remain,

jdjdjd

To Arnelos:

You have warned in the past about "going native", yet it appears to me after one chat with GoW, that you have done just that. You were my friend yesterday, and you will be my friend tomorrow, but today I feel like kicking your a$$.

To All:

I remind you of all the lies Gow has told us, and now we kowtow to them. This makes us look weak. We pull the rug out from under a deal with Lux. This makes us look untrustworthy and wishywashy.

This is bad business.

This constant overanalysis and too many "hands in the pot" will destroy us, mark my words. We need to appear united and on the same page. We need to deal as if we are stromg and sure-handed. We need to stand up to those whe seek to bully us. Our word must appear good.

Finally, if someone else interferes with my negotiations, I will have no recourse but to resign my post. So there.

**Arnelos** · January 30, 2003, 23:29

Originally posted by jdjdjd
To Arnelos:

You have warned in the past about "going native", yet it appears to me after one chat with GoW, that you have done just that. You were my friend yesterday, and you will be my friend tomorrow, but today I feel like kicking your a$$.

Jdjdjd,

For the record, I didn't go native. I certainly wasn't trying to help out GoW, I was trying to use the existence of Lux offering us HB to pressure GoW (because I don't like them in the slightest).

It was a snap decision I shouldn't have made and I'm honestly sorry to you for it. As I've argued as a consequence, ambassadors should have content control of things said to the civilization they are ambassador to - that's only fair for trying to keep the team having one voice to each other team.

As I've stated, I will consult with ambassadors and Togas in the future before doing stupid stuff like that. I have also suggested (in another thread), that such be enacted as a rule to prevent other people from making the same mistake (which others in fact did in the same chat).

I respect your position and I realized that I'd stepped over the line the moment I did it. I know good and well that we need to avoid stuff like this.

So please accept my apologies for that.

**History Guy** · January 31, 2003, 16:00

Ahem. An envoy from Picahulu of Neu Theban:

Dear Friend History Guy,

my Sultan Borc agrees that we should meet as soon as possible to discuss future borders. He proposed to meet on Wednesday, February 5.th at 7 PM GMT (that is 3 PM in NYC) or later at this day. If you can't come at this date you may think February 6.th at the same time is better, otherwise please just make another proposal.

To accellerate an agreement my people ask for a detailed border proposal. If you're ready to do so we would be happy if you could give us a map with a borderline, that shows your conception of the future. It would be just perfect if you show us your ideas one or two days before our meeting to give us some time to discuss internally.

We are delighted that your wisemen have mastered the secrets of mysticism but i'm afraid we have nothing to offer in exchange at this moment. Nevertheless we hope that our agreement to trade Math against writing is still valid, although there will be another 11 turns until research is finished here. I'm sure you'll understand we had to decrease science funding after the recent invasion of Lux Invicta. Here is the whole story:

The Ottomans sent one of their warriors into our country. We ordered him to leave immedeately but instead he walked just further towards Neu Theben until he was just one step away from our capital!
Later, the ambassador of Lux claimed that the warrior only intended to save time. That was an impudent lie, because the warrior would have arrived his destination at the same time without invading our country, and we do not doubt they used their turn to cheat!

As i've already written to you, the Ottomans force us to cooperate with the chinese, i.e. we will trade technology with them when it's possible. We don't think there is a trio-pact because we won't trade with Lux Invicta and we suppose your civ doesn't like the Chinese. We've also traded some map information with the chinese but of course we didn't give them any information about spanish territory. Nevertheless we feel that it's alright to inform our neighbours about the unoccupied territory around us, as long as nobody has signed a border contract, and we hope you agree with that.

We're looking forward to meet you for the first time and wish you all the best!

Yours, Picahulu
Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

Announcement

Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

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