Discussion - how to use our workers.

[GodKing]

In the chat tonight, many people expressed the need to connect all of our cities together as soon as possible, so that our troops may move between them easier adn they may trade goods.

However, we have no goods to trade yet, and our production is low. I proposed we use the worker (s) to focus on a city at a time, build up the infrastructure for that city, then move on to the next without worring about roading between them at this time.

I am not saying that roads are not important, just secondary to, say, mining and roading a cow (such as by city site #2) then say, roading over the mountains to connect it to madrid.

Later, when we have our core cities infrastructure built up, we will change the two priorities and focus on connecting our empire and creating trade routes.

Please discuss.

GK

[Ninot]

I tend to agree

The production of cities is more important right now, while we have no luxuries.

As for Defense, well we dont have much to defend against right now. I could see that being important once we have to shuffle troups up to an enemy, but for the time being, i would prefer we have the means to BUILD that army faster.

Production, all the way.

[Arnelos]

As I argued in the chat, I agree with GodKing's argument (and basically just repeated it myself).

Production and growth are the key elements to success at this stage in our tribe's history.

[astrologix]

I agree.

I would find particularly expensive in time to build roads through these mountains to the city #2.

I propose Madrid to build a second worker soon in order to help our first worker to build roads later (it's obvious, isn't it ?).

[ThePlagueRat]

Now that we have irrigated a bit, we can build a mine.

Madrid should pop out settlers like a randy señora pops out her niñas. To achieve the best REX-popping rate, city prod. and growth should be even and optimal.

[DAVOUT]

IMHO the only problem with this is the efficient use of workers.
Ideally arriving on a tile, a worker does the mine or irrigation then a road. A worker should not leave a tile without a road. Anytime he leaves a tile without road he looses one fourth of his capacity of working.
As a consequence, as long as there are no roads linking Madrid and Pamplona, the workers build in Madrid should work the tiles of Madrid. The tiles of Pamplona will be worked by workers built there.

[ruby_maser]

please read...

why is it that everyone seems to think production is low? We have the equivalent of 2 mined hills in Madrid (counting the cow bonus and the forest +game); we just are not utilizing one of them in favor of faster growth. City #2 will not be lacking in production either; it won't be at the maxed for a while (corruption could easily take the extra shield we get from mining the first cow anyway.

Look around us. We are not in a movement-friendly location with hills and mountains hemming us in and saddled with non-industrious workers as we are. This is the the paradigm we face. Our production will come through this fine; however, if we do not project our power now, if we waste turns to gain shields that might be lost to corruption anyway, if we cannot come to terms with the biggest obstacle between us and control of the region, we are resigning ourselves to be bitplayers on the world stage I think.

Señor DAVOUT was right. Any turn where a slave does nothing is waste. I have already run a scenario where it will take the slaves from the present position in the hills exactly 20 turns to connect the two cities. Our slaves would be done roading the hills NW of Madrid in 3000 B.C. at exactly the same time as the earliest founding of City #2 and would then be ready to cross the river and road the grassland and then the mountains (those mountains will only take 9 turns to road). Therefore, when City #2 is founded, our slaves will only be 14 turns away from connecting the cities. That is not a ridiculous amount of time or an unacceptable loss IMHO.

All this said, I think it should be a priority to have a second worker online ASAP to try and account for our non-industrious status and our need road out of this beautiful but potentially-deadly starting position we are in.

[ruby_maser]

that is double post #2.

[pikesfan]

I favour whatever method gets settlers out as quickly as possible. Maybe we need more irrigation instead around Madrid?

I think it is necessary to build the road across the mountains to Pamplona. It is a rich place, but what good will its riches do us if they are all lost to corruption? Then once the road is built, Pamplona will be able to contribute more, even settlers.

[OliverFA]

I have to agree with señor Ruby Maser and señor Davout.

The point here is: Which size are our cities suposed to have for the next turns? If Madrid is going to sent some of his people periodically to found another cities or to build new workers, then we won't need more than 2 or maybe 3 fully productive tiles. Using time to mine or to irrigate these extra tiles we are not going to use looks like a waste of time. On the other hand, if our slaves leave a tile without roading it they will have to come sooner or later, with higher moviment cost.

Also, the roads will help us not only by reducing corruption in Pamplona, but also by making it easier to be defended. An spearman between our two roaded cities (or even a warrior) could reach any of them in time. Sure, if some warrior pops here and attacks our city, it will mean a permanent war declaration on our part, but this will also mean a terrible hit to our growing nation which would send us behind all the other civs. Last but not least, roads will help future settler to reach their placement earlier favoring REX.

Said that, maybe we should consider strongly the GodKing's proposition of placing cities closer. Even this incredibly big "size 12" cities he speaks of would still let several tiles unocupied, and this would help us to connect them by roads early.

[GodKing]

Do I just remember things wrong, or does irrigation not count for squat under depotism? I thought you had to have a higher form of government for irrigation to work. Or is this something that changed with PtW.

Good discussion.

[pikesfan]

You're right, maybe irrigation still doesn't work under despotism. But I think our highest priority right now should be to breed, and send out many families to found new towns. Maybe we need to have contests between beef-eaters and squid-eaters to see who can have the biggest families.

[Crousto]

Under despotism, you lose the 3rd point generated for any tile and any resource type. (for instance a tile that should produce 4 food produce only 3, but a tile that produce 2 shields has no penalty).

I changed my mind since yesterday, now I agree that the road network construction can be delayed, production is more important right now. But when we'll get some spearmen and have met other civs, it will become a crucial element of our empire's defense.

I also agree with OliverFA and GodKing that building closer cities when possible is essential, otherwise we'll waste lots of land in the early ages. 7 civs on a standard map doesn't leave place for lots of cities, if we don't overlap some of them we'll be stuck with at best 10 cities before reaching our opponents borders. And if these opponents have something like 15 cities because they built closer... we're in for some serious trouble

[E_T]

If we allow the cities to grow and have enought Irrigation to have a specialist or two, then we'll be at our fullest of production and have people that we can take from the cities for workers and/or settlers without effecting the full production.

The City in the Valley of the Cows will allow that to happen at a better pace. IMHO, I beleave that its the reason that the AI is able to have a rapid REX Rate. I haven't tested it in any games recently, but we can look into it.

E_T

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by GodKing
Do I just remember things wrong, or does irrigation not count for squat under depotism? I thought you had to have a higher form of government for irrigation to work. Or is this something that changed with PtW.

Good discussion.

Your are right, and this is the reason because we don't need to irrigate standard tiles so urgently. We can concentrate on special tiles (2 or 3 per city should be enough at the REX phase) and roads and come back to this normal tiles once we are planning to change to monarchy. Meanwhile our settlers and military units will benefit from our roads, and the corruption will be lower.