Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

[lmtoops]

I don't think they know that we have troops on Bob.

I don't think they can share GP with GS. I don't think the game let's you do second hand trades. So GS would not get the GP.

That said, I don't see how this can work. Yes, I would like to give RP the GP but they are at war with our allies. I don't see how we can tell GoW and ND, "Yes we are your friends. By the way, we have given your enemy GP." That puts us in an uncomfortable position; playing both sides.

We have thrown our lot with GoW and ND. So we are better off staying the course and not play politics.

So how do we respond to Arenelos? I don't know...I'll leave that up to someone else.

[Tiberius]

Too bad they didn't use this kind of attitude towards us until now. I'm talking about actually giving something, not just demanding all kind of stuff.

It is too late. There's nothing we can do and we don't want to do anything. We can even be sincere in this regard. We could tell them: "Sorry guys, too late. The horse has gone".

PS Btw, I got the PM too.

[vondrack]

Well... I can only agree with others. It's too late.

It's absolutely impossible to give gunpowder to RP. We acquired the tech under certain terms and those terms, even if not written, clearly forbid providing gp to RP or GS. It's as easy as that. Pretending otherwise would be most dishonourable.

Besides... giving gunpowder to RP would not help a bit. They have no source they can hook up and use. Nor has GS. We'd have to provide it together with the resource - and we do not have it connected yet, plus, they would have to hold in Barcelona (which is unlikely).

They are doomed.

We allied with GoW and ND. The goal of this alliance, clearly stated at its very beginning, was to make sure RP and GS are driven off Bob. Now that it seems the goal is within the reach, we should rejoice and not feel bad about RPers... their "better" attitude came too late - and I am not even 100% convinced it's honest.

We had very good reasons to ally with GoW & ND against RP & GS. Let's not forget those - they still apply.

Unless someone else WANTS to take the job, I will arrange a chat with Arnelos today evening and tell him the bad news. Using his wording... Lego will never help RP...

[ZargonX]

Well, I think Arnelos is being honest, I think he just had the misfortune of stepping in to try and fix the diplomatic minefield Togas left for him. Regardless, giving them GP would be useless for them, harmful for us. I would make the following points in chat:

-Tell them giving them GP is not going to help them.
-Explain we'd rather get GP to GS on our own terms, not have them turn around and gift it.
-We are not providing military or economic aid to either GoW or ND (true), thus we can't hurt them that way.
-Our military is defense-based, so we won't be attacking GoW or ND to assist them.

At that point, they should realize there really isn't anything we can do to save them that wouldn't harm ourselves, which we certainly wouldn't be doing. If he is still pleading, tell HIM to propose something then, other than just showing up begging for us to come up with something.

[redstar1]

He has proposed something, us gifting GP... I think we've pansied around RP enough and we should tell them straight out that there is nothing we can do, and nothing we want to do....

We can even spell out the reasons if we like....

[vondrack]

Just finished the chat with Arnelos, the log will be up shortly.

[vondrack]

Session Start: Tue Oct 21 22:31:22 2003
Session Ident: Arnelos
vondrack: Hello!
Arnelos: hey
vondrack: I have no good news for you
Arnelos: so I figured
vondrack: said very briefly, Legoland is not going to help
vondrack: actually
vondrack: more or less, the only help possible would be direct military intervention
vondrack: and we are not going to do that
Arnelos: I seem to think that Gunpowder would give us a fighting chance
vondrack: I understand you would believe so
vondrack: but it's not true
Arnelos: at the very least, it might bleed GoW and ND some more UUs
Arnelos: and that can't hurt anyone but them
Arnelos: so I have been lead to believe
vondrack: the map generator screwed some teams big time
vondrack: speaking about saltpeter, that is
vondrack: though... I am actually disclosing something that is not all that relevant
vondrack: the thing is that the whole problem with the world's saltpeter deposits
Arnelos: is that legoland has the lion's share of them, no?
vondrack: has nothing to do with our involvement in the war
vondrack: ah, no... not lion's share, I would not put it that way
vondrack: enough
vondrack: though quite inconveniently located
vondrack: but that's, as I said, not the reason for withholding our help
Arnelos: you're allied to GoW
Arnelos: which, if I dare say so, will eventually come back to bite you
vondrack: I am sorry, I cannot answer questions regarding alliances Legoland may or may not be part of
Arnelos:
vondrack: if it was a question, that is...
Arnelos: We've actually believed you were allied with GoW for quite some time now
Arnelos: QUITE some time
Arnelos: here's the thing... you guys helping GoW made a ton of sense, I will admit, when GS entered the war to help us
Arnelos: but that's no longer true
Arnelos: GS and RP are not winning this war
Arnelos: until GoW and ND are re-contained, you run the very real risk that you will help them break out and eventually even threaten you
Arnelos: keeping Bob weak and divided would seem the superior option
vondrack: it's difficult for me to discuss these things - as I have said, I can't confirm nor deny that we may or may not be allied/friendly/unfriendly/hostile towards another team
vondrack: so, let's talk academic
Arnelos: my team is on the brink of either surviving or being killed off... I have no time for academic discussions... you're allied with GoW. I'm trying to tell you, reasonably, that this is no longer a policy which fits your interests. That it happens to be hurting us as well is why I'm saying it, of course.
Arnelos: but that doesn't prevent it from being true, either
Arnelos: fact is, if ND and GoW actually *win* this war, which is looking much more likely, they will have the power to start looking for other targets
Arnelos: and, to be perfectly honest, Legoland is the rusty third wheel of the ND-GoW relationship
vondrack: Arnelos, let's not get into this, please
vondrack: there is, I am sorry, nothing you can do to change things
Arnelos: there is, you're simply choosing not to exercise it
Arnelos: the bone-crushing momentum of previous policy
vondrack: I meant that you, Arnelos (and for that matter, even me, vondrack), cannot do anything to change the Legoland's decision
Arnelos: YOU can't change it?
vondrack: it's not that we would be hesitating, still waging pros and cons
Arnelos: I have been lead to believe otherwise. It's not that you can't, it's that you won't
vondrack: explain, please
vondrack: do you think I have any special powers in Legoland?
Arnelos: Legoland retains the power of freedom of action... you have it within your power to change course. That you are choosing not to is a choice of your own volition. No-one is forcing you to hold to the present course, with the dangers that lay ahead.
vondrack: oh, yes, that's true
Arnelos: I happen to believe that you are one of the principle individuals opposed to changing course... multiple individuals from Legoland have mentioned this... that the main obstacle to changing Legoland policy is you.
vondrack: ummm... things in Legoland are decided by polls
vondrack: my vote is as important as any other
Arnelos: while true, apparently you hold more weight over other people's votes than you might assume
vondrack: like I can influence them?
Arnelos: votes are decided as much by convincing arguments as by anything else
vondrack: well, that is often true
Arnelos: look... I understand that I come to you as a highly biased source. I obviously have a vested interest in my own team's survival.... that said...
Arnelos: that said, it's still true, as I see it, that Legoland is encouraging a dangerous future for itself by continuing to support the Glory of War. It has the rather troubling potential of coming back to bite you.
Arnelos: I'm not making that up
vondrack: I understand your concerns. But Legoland is not taking its future lightly. We have been discussing the situation quite a bit.
vondrack: And the result was
vondrack: (it changed radically after GS entered the war)
vondrack: that we chose to not assist you
vondrack: it may have been the wrong thing to do
Arnelos: the point is... there is an option you could exercise that would have significantly less chance of biting you back. The word of Gathering Storm is their bond. We have found that they have performed to every letter of our treaties with them. We are willing to do the same... we have little left to gain by not doing so.
Arnelos: I have discussed the matter with Gathering Storm and they seem willing to sign a treaty with Legoland in which they would bind themselves to an honorable non-aggression agreement if Legoland would cease support for GoW and instead work with us
Arnelos: the key of the matter is that where GoW would violate such an agreement in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself, our teams would not
Arnelos: I believe we can achieve a genuine commitment to ending the game in a peaceable fashion
vondrack: Arnelos, I am sorry I cannot give you an answer that would make you happier - but I am here communicating the stance of my team (though not denying it's my own, too)
vondrack: we heard your proposals, your arguments
vondrack: you may be right
vondrack: we admit that
vondrack: but still, we made our minds
vondrack: and we are not going to change the decision
Arnelos: hmm
Arnelos: I suppose the best I can hope for is that at some point in the not too distant future, I may yet be a member of Legoland myself when RP goes down
vondrack:
vondrack: not sure if you'd enjoy our "social life"
Arnelos: lol
vondrack: sometimes it takes days between posts...
Arnelos: sounds like RP of late
Arnelos: well, until the game started moving agian
vondrack: that's because of the bug, yes
vondrack: but even when the game is going on
vondrack: the forum is not all that busy
Arnelos: yeah, I think the PTWDG, in general, has slowed over the past 2 months...
Arnelos: activity has fallen, sapped by other pursuits
vondrack: true
vondrack: I have to admit that my interest in DGs
vondrack: is getting weaker and weaker...
vondrack: I find it difficult
vondrack: to pitch myself against other people - not only ingame enemies, but even against my teammates
vondrack: if we disagree on something
vondrack: (and there were a LOT of times this happened in Lego)
Arnelos: indeed
Arnelos: on any team
Arnelos: hell, we've had two attempted revolutions on this team
vondrack: btw - I love your ISDG turnlogs
Arnelos: yeah, I only got to do 2 of them
Arnelos: thanks
vondrack: as much as I just fear BigFree's...
Arnelos: lol
Arnelos: that was actually a point of rather high argument in RP in 280 A.D. last turn
Arnelos: because the turn had to be replayed
Arnelos: BigFree hadn't really recorded what he did very well
vondrack: yeah
vondrack:
Arnelos: so I had to get Trip to look at Vox's save and use the reload bug to see where BigFree moved our units
vondrack:
vondrack: I managed to have Lego players make very detailed records
vondrack: besides, it's almost always either me or Zargon
Arnelos: meanwhile, I was pissed as hell that our units had moved where they did... the current battle between GoW and RP is the result... that battle should have never happened... Aggie is right to taunt us, I'm just trying to hold face and repair what damage I can
vondrack: oh? was it a team decision?
Arnelos: that said, thankfully GoW still underestimates our defenses
Arnelos: no
vondrack: hehe - watch your words... if we are allied to GoW...
Arnelos: BigFree moved the units, then we held the save for a bit... then Togas signed on, repeated BigFRee's moves and just sent it to the next team without a turnchat or even looking at it himself.... he said it had been 24 hours and we just needed to send on the save... it was a stupid move
Arnelos: GoW took advantage of the situation, of course
vondrack: oops...
Arnelos: but that's behind us... we're making the best of our current situation
Arnelos: alrighty, I should go post in our forum and move on the game
vondrack: ok, hope to meet you again under more cheerful circumstances
Arnelos: perhaps so
Arnelos: either things may go better than I believe they will, or, if they go badly (as I expect in the long run), I may yet join in you Legoland
vondrack: I will personally vote for you to be adopted
Arnelos:
vondrack: though... maybe you should thence restrict yourself to reading only SOME threads...
Arnelos: and vondrack... something else to mention...
vondrack: yes?
Arnelos: Keep in mind that I was not active on RP team from the time we made contact with Legoland (which I had worked on with sending you guys the minimaps of Bob) and the GoW/ND-RP war
Arnelos: it seems to me that a lot of history happpened in there
Arnelos: most of it not good
vondrack: most of, actually...
vondrack: yes
vondrack: that's why I understand that you are trying to fix things now and feel bad for not being able to help you out
Arnelos: ah
vondrack: but things moved a lot while you were away
vondrack: an awful lot happened
Arnelos: yeah, it sounds to me like our team made way too much of a big deal out of that start-of-game agreement.... it may not be a good idea to sign those in future games... a good leason to learn
vondrack: well - the only problem I can see
vondrack: might be that you thought the deal was something different from what we thought it was
vondrack: we though it was two-way, mutual
Arnelos: it was a bit vague
Arnelos: ah....
Arnelos: I see
vondrack: yes, it must have been, I guess
Arnelos: the whole thing was like 4 lines
vondrack: but the thing is that many times, we felt as if RP saw it as one-way (as in "you still pay for getting Carthage")
vondrack: I made a very lame attempt at explaining that in the ISDG thread - but spoiled the whole thing by the part on Togas
vondrack: I later regretted that post a lot
Arnelos: in effect, the agreement was the "price" for Legoland getting Carthage... which is my point. I don't think establishing a debter-debtee relationship like that at the start of the game was productive for relations... especially when our team harped on it
vondrack: ah, so - RP _did_ see it as a debter-debtee?
Arnelos: yes
Arnelos: that was the team's understanding of the treaty
Arnelos: that it was the price for Carthage
vondrack: do you have the wording of the treaty somewhere?
Arnelos: sure... lemme get that
Arnelos: We, the Roleplay team, hereby promise that we will give the Legoland team the civilization of Carthage and we will cooperate with research (each team researching different paths and then trading).
Arnelos: In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD, to give the Roleplay Civilization "Most Favored Nation" trade status (which shall include selling us techs at a lower price than any other civ), and cooperate with research as explained above.
Arnelos: Both teams also pledge to try to maintain good relations throughout the game and to attempt to cooperate for the mutual protection and success of our civilizations.
Arnelos: Signed in 4000 BC
vondrack: yes, that's the text I have always been referring to as well
vondrack: so that was not the problem
vondrack: the problem is - when you read through it
vondrack: what actually came to fruition?
Arnelos: I'd agree that RP made more of the "most favored nation" thing than they should have... harped on it way too much. That said, many on RP remain resentful in the present conflict of the non-aggression portion (not joining another at war with RP)
Arnelos: in all, the treaty just didn't work
vondrack: the problem is it is not a war of RP against GoW+ND
vondrack: not only
Arnelos: too vague and too binding on future action
vondrack: the GS bit messed things badly
vondrack: agreed
vondrack: trading civs pre-game for something ingame is just no-no for any future games
Arnelos: agreed
vondrack: especially if that something is vaguely defined
Arnelos: a good lesson learned, as I said
vondrack: pity you have to pay so many hours for such a lesson
Arnelos: well, I should probably get going, since I have other things to do today. As for you, it's what? 10:30 or 11:30 p.m. there?
vondrack: 11:30pm
Arnelos: alright, thanks for the chat, even if it didn't work out as hoped
vondrack: yeah - take care
vondrack: good night
Arnelos: cya
Session Close: Tue Oct 21 23:28:38 2003

[vondrack]

I do not think this needs to be commented. It was one of the unpleasant duties I have had to do in this game.

Just for the sake of my curiosity: was what Arnelos mentioned ("several Legos suggesting I was one of the principal individuals opposing the change of course") some old stuff or do you feel so even at present?

I have thought the team decision over the involvement in the war was... unanimous? And I can recall only Steve proposing major changes after we discovered gunpowder - and that was only/mostly academical, summing up our options, as I understood it.

Even if the things here are not really decided by polls, I believe we hold something like "informal polls" in the discussion threads...

Is there anyone seriously preferring to break our alliance promises to GoW/ND and coming to RP's aid?

[ZargonX]

Just for the sake of my curiosity: was what Arnelos mentioned ("several Legos suggesting I was one of the principal individuals opposing the change of course") some old stuff or do you feel so even at present?

I think he was just harping on old discussions. I think all of our joking around about you and Steve being at each other's throats makes him think you're some sort of conservative monster

[lmtoops]

I made my decision many turns ago and have stuck with it. I support the GoW/ND alliance.

But of course, I always blame everything on Vondrack

[vondrack]

Originally posted by lmtoops
But of course, I always blame everything on Vondrack

Way to go, Leo!

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by vondrack
Just for the sake of my curiosity: was what Arnelos mentioned ("several Legos suggesting I was one of the principal individuals opposing the change of course") some old stuff or do you feel so even at present?

I do see you as being one of the more pro-ND/GoW people on the team, but that's not a bad thing; nor does it necessarily mean I disagree with you. I think you just see the alliance as longer-term than I do. I don't know why Arnelos thinks that though; probably because of the vondrack-Sharpe jokes.

[Nimitz]

I wasn't around for the start of the alliance, but if I had I would of been more for the pushing out of GS from bob and just trimming RP as 3 nations on bob is better then just 2. As for the "several Legos suggesting I was one of the principal individuals opposing the change of course" I don't know where he got that from, though I do think you have a good deal of influance on the team.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Nimitz
I wasn't around for the start of the alliance, but if I had I would of been more for the pushing out of GS from bob and just trimming RP as 3 nations on bob is better then just 2.

I believe that would have been the choice for all of us - alas, this option was not actually available. Not helping GoW & ND carried a serious implied risk of having them fall to GS in the long run, effectively allowing GS to win the game.

If we wanted to prevent that, there was, more or less, only one other choice - to get in bed with them. We DID limit our involvement in the war quite strictly. We said we'd join no military actions against RP (though it would be ridiculous to pretend that our involvement was not hostile towards RP and in fact against the spirit of the pre-game treaty) and that we'd not join invasion of Stormia. But other than that, we had to make our choice - sleeping in two beds at the same time means you are not really in any of them. So we chose to work towards a 2-civ Bob, which we hope to be able to handle peacefully (outbuilding both GoW and ND in the long run).

It's pretty much the same situation at this very moment. We can see GoW & ND will probably win even without our extensive help. But while changing sides just to "keep the balance and fuel the war" might benefit us short term, it would harm our reputation long-term.

At the moment, we have one team indebted and I hope honestly friendly to us (Vox), wishing to help us win. We have 2 more teams very friendly to us, at least for now and the foreseeable future (GoW & ND). These 2 teams are economically little threat to the never-struck-by-war Legoland empire (even combined). And then we have two teams that we have always been having troubles with - RP (soon to leave the game it seems) and GS (so far our main competitor for the victory in this game).

When RP is dead and the alliance goals achieved (GS cut to size on Stormia), we will be the key to the world's balance of power (thanks to how the saltpeter deposits are distributed). Without our approval, GoW & ND will have little chance to invade Stormia successfully - as our saltpeter would turn it into Fortress Stormia (plus, we would be free to attack from the West).

Changing sides NOW would only mean we would make two teams (GoW & ND) very angry at us, while gaining little love from GS & RP - as they would likely view our decision as self-interest driven, thus establishing very little "debt" (and would turn against us any time in the future, I suspect). OTOH, since there is no or very little (immediate, at least) benefit to supporting GoW & ND now (as opposed to 20 turns ago), it DOES help our trustworthiness and long-term bonds with these teams.

And frankly - with Vox being our little brother, GoW & ND being sort of indebted to us (the gunpowder thing is a MAJOR one, especially if you add NOT providing saltpeter to RP/GS) and having the whole of Bob to (re)settle and improve, GS cut to size on Stormia and RP gone... where is any threat to us? In case Bobians try to be naughty, we equip GS with saltpeter and the balance of power is back (the only caveat being GS deliberately NOT helping us, which I, however, not consider probable, given how relations have developed in this game).

So, to sum things up - I don't say we'd gain nothing by breaking the alliance. It's a valid and perhaps even fine option in terms of coldblooded calculations. But the possible gain is far less than what I believe is the "price of our honour". It's not that the only way to win this game is to break our alliance now. I strongly believe we can win even if remaining honourable and true to our current allies.

So, let's avoid backstabbing, at least for the moment. I happen to believe we can afford it.

[ZargonX]

Role Play Corresponadnace and Foreign Affairs

ZargonX,

I'm sending messages out to the leaderships of the various teams notifying them of my position as turnplayer and leader of RP Team during Togas' absence. I may also have a heightened role after Togas' return, don't know.

Please send all diplomatic traffic/requests for RP Team to me for now.

Thanks.

- Arnelos