DIPLO: Glory of War contact LOG

[Cort Haus]

from MZ

Wierd, I swear I sent you guys steel last turn.

Either it is the infamous disappearing trade bug (it has happened between us and ND but only regarding gold) or perhaps, what I suspect, is that first I sent GS steel when your offer of Incense appeared at the start of our turn. Since we had not built the colongy for gems at that point, I later opened the diplo screen and sent you the gems. Maybe that deal canceled the other deal, perhaps I accidentally clicked "clear table", I don't know.

My sincere apologies, you should've gotten steel this last turn, I will resend as soon as I get the save, along with the lux offer at the same time.

-MZ

[Cort Haus]

to MZ

Hi MZ,

We're looking at T140 (28 turns time) as the optimium time for launch, with T145 being the latest possible. Anything beyond that and we reckon we may be facing Tanks.

How does that sound to you guys?

Regards,

Cort

[Cort Haus]

to MZ

MZ,

Sorry I've not been able to chat of late. I've tried but missed you in #gow_cofa - however I could put some plans down for you in a PM. Meanwhile, we could try and arrange a time for chat. I'm quite busy with my band atm but will have some time at the weekend. I hoping one of our Generalissimos will be able to discuss military aspects as plans take shape.

Briefly, the idea is that GS and GoW simultaneously knock out Lego's picket line, leaving them needing to defend six or seven cities. We each attack with 40-odd Marines and take a city, then sending in tanks, inf, art & planes to pillage the approaches, defend against counterattacks, and eventually proceed. We have to do this before Lego gets Tanks - hence the T140-145 deadline.

More later ...

Regards,

Cort Haus

[Cort Haus]

to MZ

(based on DeepO's notes, plus some other bits)

Hi MZ,

Here's some more details of our plans. I'll keep trying the gow-cofa channel, or let me know when you can chat.


Invasion]

The longer we wait, the bigger the risk. turn 240 should remain our goal. We can assume that Lego are expecting to be invaded.

Infantry ahouldn't be too great a problem as long as the diversion is right. Our plans so far are to at least threaten 3 cities (ideally 4 or 5) right until the latest turn. If GoW is doing the same on Lego's east side, and we attack simultanously, Lego have to spread their defenses over at least 6-7 cities.

If a city is defended by 10 infs, we expect some 40 marines to be necessary to be reasonably sure to take a city. If we can't reach that, we'll need to land on mountains / hills. This is before bombardment from either side. Bombardment could become key, for which GoW is much better placed then GS, given that your bombers can reach Legoland from their cities.

The best chance we've got is to destroy all of Lego's picket line in one turn, on both sides. They then need to scout where we are. Scouting can be done by ship (not efficient, and scouting ships will be destroyed), or by fighter. Every fighter scouting, is one less on air superiority, giving our bombers free shots at target cities.

The longer we wait, the bigger the risk. turn 240 should remain our goal. We can assume that Lego are expecting to be invaded. Given that, we are free to hamper them economically as much as possible. Denying them all tech and lux is paramount. If ND, GoW and GS don't trade them any lux (not even the one benefitting us now), they will need to spend 20-30% of their budget on happiness. In case they've got metros, this amount only increases. No happiness will also hamper them drafting defenders, as even conscript infs will be a pain to deal with.


Goals

1. hamper Lego. 2. get a beachhead. 3. (maybe) destroy Lego, and Vox


Tech

GS: Combustion + Mass Prod = 7200
GOW : Flight + Amphib = 7200

They match up nicely. We'll give you Scientific Method as promoised, which will leave Atomic Theory, Electronics, and Motorised Transport. If we said half beaker cost of each, that would be (4800 + 4320 + 3360 ) / 2 = 6240 if my sums are right. Add a further discount to the ToE techs and factor in the price of rubber (whatever that is), and perhaps we're looking at 4500 + Rubber, payable in installments to be concluded before the launch of invasion as we need the money to upgrade.

Regards,

Cort Haus

[Cort Haus]

to MZ

Greetings MZ and the Warmongers,

Do you guys want Combustion the moment we discover it, or after Lego discovers it, to avoid them getting the 10% devaluation? (~380 beakers, which is significant)

Also, did you get the long PM with the military and research detail?

Regards,

Cort Haus

[Krill]

I am inchat with MZ NOW. at [~GOW CoFA]

Please help me. He is available from 7:30 PM GMT Monday-Thursday, and all day Friday. I need CH NOW.

He is about to take a shower, so be in chat in 15-20 minutes

[asleepathewheel]

haha, good luck. I'd help out but I'm off to see Dodgeball with the wife in a few minutes.

[Krill]

Before all of you shoot me after reading this log, Remember that Both of us were watching the game and rooting for oppisite sides.

Session Start: Sun Jun 20 18:43:35 2004
Session Ident: #GoW_CoFA
[18:43] * Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
[18:43] * Topic is 'The Glory of Diplomacy: Cheese, women, football and backstabbing'
[18:43] * Set by MasterZen on Fri Jun 18 20:03:42
[18:43] Krill: Hello MZ
[18:44] MasterZen: heya
[18:44] Krill: Have you had the chat with Cort Haus yet?
[18:44] MasterZen: nope :S
[18:44] MasterZen: I think we should set one up this week
[18:45] MasterZen: there's A LOT to talk about
[18:45] Krill: yeah, we are now average to you in military. It's taken us a while to catch up
[18:46] Krill: When are you next available
[18:46] MasterZen: our buildup begins 2 turns from now
[18:46] Krill: C*ap
[18:46] Krill: atleast Lego will have a few problemd holding us...
[18:46] MasterZen: but it doesn't really take full swing until 5 turns from now, we estimate we'll have 12 cities pouring out units non-stop
[18:47] Krill: When are you next available to chat? GMT times?
[18:48] MasterZen: well since you all are in ye olde engelond, what time is it right now over there_
[18:48] MasterZen: ?
[18:48] Krill: I'm now FAM for GS, But I have a few exams next week
[18:49] MasterZen: is it 6:48 right now over there?
[18:49] Krill: Yeah, but we are GMT+1 (BST)
[18:49] MasterZen: ok so GMT is 5:48... it's 12:48 here
[18:50] MasterZen: my hours of availability are:
[18:50] MasterZen: every day AFTER 7:30pm GMT
[18:50] MasterZen: except friday, I'm available all day :P
[18:52] Krill: lucky you. I'll post the times now, but if you outline what you want to talk about, maybe I can help you a bit.
[18:52] MasterZen: ok
[18:52] MasterZen: talk military and techs
[18:52] MasterZen: that's pretty much it
[18:52] MasterZen: particulary military
[18:55] MasterZen: well
[18:55] MasterZen: I have to take a shower
[18:55] MasterZen: be back in 15-20 min
[18:56] Krill: Ok, I'm just checking up on the threads now... cya
[19:32] Krill: what is it that you want to know, speciffically about the mil and techs?
[19:35] MasterZen: well I just want to have a chat where each side explains their overall plans, possible landing sites, estimated # of units...etc etc
[19:41] Krill: OK, ATM we are looking at moving our fleet towards quanto mechanico, Sandonoria and Forkmouth, and using decoy fleets (1-2 destroyers+ 3 transports) so Lego move defenders to other places, so we have a better chance of invading.
[19:41] MasterZen: would you like to excahnge maps?
[19:42] MasterZen: perhaps we have parts of lego that the other doesn't...
[19:42] Krill: Maybe, but I doubt it. I'll tell DeepO to do it. The others will (probably) not have a problem wiht that
[19:43] MasterZen: ok
[19:45] Krill: done.
[19:46] MasterZen: btw, we will require Combustion in a few turns, i'd say about 3-4 but I'll PM one of you with the exact date
[19:47] Krill: I think we will have it next turn, but I'm not sure. Next turn or the turn after. BTW how do you LOG chats?
[19:48] MasterZen: there are two ways, are you using mIRC?
[19:49] Krill: yeah, mIRC
[19:49] Krill: We will have combustion in 2, just checked the turn thread
[19:49] MasterZen: in the Options, go to where it says Logging, and choose to log, this will create a file which logs all your chats
[19:50] MasterZen: or if you just want to log one chat right-click on the room name button at the top, then buffer and save as...
[19:51] Krill: thanks, I've been needing to find that out.
[19:51] Krill: close, close... careful Portugal
[19:52] Krill: yay, now we are both equal
[19:53] MasterZen: go spain!
[19:53] MasterZen: btw, russia scored a while ago
[19:54] Krill: I know, could be nice to have both spain and Port in the 1/4 finals
[19:54] MasterZen: well if russia wins by a comfortable margin, it could be possible
[19:54] Krill: Markos would ban me and the rest of the English if Greece go out
[19:54] MasterZen: haha
[19:55] MasterZen: sad thing is that germany or holland are going out. No way out of it
[19:55] MasterZen: I think that it's going to be Germany. They have a tough one against the Czechs, though Latvia has been playing quite well and could surprise the dutch
[19:55] Krill: Holland should have won that match, Seedorf should have had a hattrick...
[19:56] Krill: Holland should have buried the game in the first half
[19:56] MasterZen: Holland has a bunch of great players on the bench. I don't know why they are playing. I think the coach really sucks, too much wasted talent
[19:58] Krill: True, but it is the rivalry between Ajax and FEyenood (or PSV, I can't remember), and most of the players hate each other. They won't pass to each other etc
[19:58] Krill: it is very spiteful
[19:58] MasterZen: I heard it was something about the black players hating the white ones and vice versa or something like that...
[19:59] MasterZen: either way, it's pretty sad
[19:59] Krill: yeah, they could win this tournament if they worked together.
[20:00] MasterZen: the sad thing is that historically, holland is the most spectacular european team
[20:00] Krill: heart missed a beat then
[20:00] Krill: spectacular, yes, but Germany are more succesful
[20:01] MasterZen: definitely
[20:01] MasterZen: but Holland has a way of working with the ball that no other european team has. They have flavor
[20:01] MasterZen: or rather "had"
[20:01] MasterZen: they are too mechanical now
[20:02] Krill: yeah. I hope this game stays the same though. It looks great, Ronaldo in particular
[20:02] MasterZen: yes, Ronaldo has been making some pretty amazing runs
[20:02] MasterZen: russia 2-0
[20:03] Krill: ****ing hell
[20:03] Krill: really?
[20:03] MasterZen: yep
[20:04] Krill: I only have the Spain Port game
[20:05] MasterZen: they're playing both here on differnt channels
[20:06] Krill: Lucky you. Want ot bet on who scores in this match first?
[20:06] MasterZen: btw, Euro fever is contagious. I have been playing FIFA far more than I have Civ during the last weeks
[20:06] MasterZen: well, I think portugal is going to score first
[20:07] Krill: I probably would, but I don't have it
[20:07] Krill: Yeah, POrtugal might, but the match is getting streched at both ends
[20:07] MasterZen: we can bet on what minute the goal is going to be scored. Closest one wins
[20:08] Krill: Ok, 30th
[20:08] MasterZen: ok, I say 55th
[20:09] Krill: first half/second half split?
[20:09] MasterZen: ?
[20:10] MasterZen: wow, Ronaldo is unstoppable
[20:12] Krill: roughly, if they score before the 40th minute, I win, after that you win. I saw Ronaldo in the FA cup final. He is going to become world class
[20:12] MasterZen: ok
[20:13] MasterZen: ah yes, he's with Manchester U right?
[20:13] Krill: yeah, he is.
[20:14] Krill: But you should see Rooney. He could get the Golden Boot if he is not careful
[20:15] MasterZen: I haven't seen Rooney much, in fact I've missed both of England's games except the final minutes of the one with France
[20:16] MasterZen: that was because the Mexican league final was on that same day, and it ended up going to a penalty shootout so it took longer and overlapped with the euro game
[20:17] Krill: AH, I should have watched that game. Losing to 2 goals in the last 3 minutes hurt so much... He was the best striker on the pith, better than Trezuget or Henry
[20:18] MasterZen: England - Croatia is going to be a good one
[20:18] Krill: and 2 goals against the Swiss, a good header and a 20 yard drive
[20:18] MasterZen: Owen, from what I've heard, has been non-existant
[20:19] MasterZen: damn, Spain had a nice chance right now
[20:20] Krill: Owen povided the cross for the header, but He is way off the pace. That or he is very hevily marked, leaving space for Rooney... Either way, leave him on the pitch, he helps the team
[20:20] MasterZen: I'm definitely going to watch the England game tomorrow instead of the French one
[20:20] Krill: Nobetter than Maniches shot
[20:21] Krill: France-Switzerland will either be dull, or Henry comes back on form. Englands is going to be a scrap, because of the situation, so I think you will make the right choice
[20:23] MasterZen: hmm
[20:23] MasterZen: given the current scores of both games, Spain and Portugal are both qualifying
[20:23] Krill: really?
[20:24] Krill: Wow. Never thought that would happen
[20:24] Krill: Portugal need a decent striker, maybe 2. Figo on the left, Ronaldo on the right, Deco in the middle, one anchor. Not as good as France, but Heh, that is the best midfield in the world
[20:25] MasterZen: by far
[20:25] Krill: Englands is close though, we ran them ragged for 90 minutes.
[20:26] Krill: But we need a left winger. We have not had one for decades
[20:27] MasterZen: well, France's problem IMO is more psychological than physical
[20:27] MasterZen: they have to live up to a lot of hype
[20:28] MasterZen: no other reason how the Trezeguet-Henry combo couldn't even score a single goal in 2002 :P
[20:28] Krill: Close
[20:28] MasterZen: DAMN
[20:29] MasterZen: ****, 2-1 Russia-Greece
[20:30] MasterZen: DAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!
[20:30] Krill: ****, damn, HE SHOULD HAVE SCORED
[20:30] MasterZen: Ronaldo had a close on!
[20:30] Krill: OK you win the bet
[20:30] MasterZen: well... not if the game ends 0-0 :P
[20:32] Krill: Now it is half time, what else do you want to know about the invasion?
[20:33] MasterZen: lol
[20:33] MasterZen: well, we haven't really started our own planning since we still have 2 turns to go before we start (damn coalplant/hospital builds)
[20:34] MasterZen: I guess the first issue is to discuss the unit mix
[20:34] Krill: I know the feeling,
[20:34] Krill: one mo, phone
[20:34] MasterZen: k
[20:38] * MasterZen is going to start cooking some food
[20:38] * MasterZen is now known as MZ[Cooking]
[20:41] Krill: have a nice lunch
[20:43] MZ[Cooking]: hehe
[20:43] MZ[Cooking]: I'm still here watching the game though
[20:44] MZ[Cooking]: I just go flip the steak
[20:55] * MZ[Cooking] is now known as MZ[Away]
[20:59] Krill: Crap
[21:06] * MZ[Away] has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

EDIT: to make names show up

[Krill]

And after the match we digressed a bit. I may have istruck up a new friendship though. Every little helps.

[21:48] * MZ[Away] has joined #gow_cofa
[21:49] * MZ[Away] is now known as MasterZen
[21:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +o MasterZen
[21:49] Krill: hello again. Had a nice lunch? And pity about the game
[21:49] MasterZen: yeah, shame
[21:49] MasterZen: oh well, Spain deserved it for such a horrible first half
[21:50] Krill: OK, now that is over, what is it that you wanted to discuss?
[21:50] MasterZen: techs
[21:51] MasterZen: Cort sent me an estimate of 4500 for the bottom tier techs + combustion
[21:54] Krill: yeah, that was the total price for the bottom tier. You got sci method for helping us, and that is the price for MT, AT, and Electronics
[21:54] Krill: *Sci for free
[21:55] Krill: We think it is best if we go for the next tech as well, but we need that money before the invasion
[21:55] MasterZen: well, by the time you have Combustion we'll be able to dish out about 2000+
[21:57] MasterZen: GoW's only major problem right now is $$ solvency. We are finishing a full set of Stock Exchanges in about 3-4 turns so that should no longer be a problem
[21:57] MasterZen: full set = in all major cities
[21:58] Krill: OK, that should not be a problem then
[21:59] Krill: just wondering, but have you stopped trading lux to lego? or rather, when
[22:00] Krill: we hope that they will have a few large metros, and need the lux slider near 40%, slowing down research.
[22:01] MasterZen: we will stop when the current treaty ends
[22:01] Krill: and that is...
[22:02] Krill: you know the start guys, if you don't want to say, they become anxious. I prefer to watch the diplo screen
[22:02] MasterZen: the current treaty ends.... (have no idea, I should check this turn :P )
[22:11] Krill: we have a few other thing s we want to talk about.
[22:11] MasterZen: i'm all ears
[22:12] Krill: How many transports will you have spare, and that you can gaurd with destroyers?
[22:13] Krill: To make it look like splinter strikes, and Lego use infs to protect other cities, infs that will not be defending out landing zones.
[22:14] Krill: Because we have worked out that we will need 40 marines to take a city with 10 infs, and the less infs in their cities the better.
[22:15] MasterZen: gow has 10 galleons right now, we have two dedicated galleon-producing cities (those are actually the only 2 cities which have been on build-up mode for quite some time now)
[22:16] MasterZen: we will have 4 ship-producing cities soon, but those will do destroyers mostly, we could probably build a good number of spare transports
[22:16] MasterZen: the thing is...
[22:16] Krill: we also want to take out their navel pickets, which you can use bombers to help, but will divert destroyers from splinter duty
[22:16] Krill: yes?
[22:17] MasterZen: our most juicy target is Jackson
[22:17] MasterZen: Lego obviously will know this
[22:17] MasterZen: so any faint will only work if the faint IS jackson, and the landing elsewhere
[22:19] Krill: Do ND know if we are going to attack?
[22:20] MasterZen: yes, and they want in but there's a problem
[22:20] Krill: and that is?
[22:20] Krill: they are going to backstab you while your army is away?
[22:20] MasterZen: if GoW was about 5-10 turns behind GS in improvement-building, ND is about 15-20 behind US
[22:21] MasterZen: well look at it this way:
[22:21] MasterZen: we won't win regarless unless we attack Lego :P
[22:21] MasterZen: so in that worst-case scenario, it's a lose-lose situation
[22:22] MasterZen: ND is also looking for a neutrality declaration, and offering help, perhaps financial at first, and military if the war drags on
[22:22] Krill: From a personal POV, all the better, drain an economy that WILL become the dominant one in the world by getting them to attack Lego as well
[22:23] MasterZen: ND is in full economic-build up mode right now
[22:23] Krill: I did not know about the neutrality declaration, but it seemed probable
[22:23] MasterZen: Darekill seems far less paranoid of GoW than Zayxus was
[22:24] MasterZen: and far less a friend of Lego
[22:25] Krill: really, we have not had much contact with ND, before or since the president change.
[22:26] MasterZen: well look at the bright side:
[22:26] Krill: I mean as much as with you, Glory of War.
[22:26] Krill: Nice Name
[22:26] MasterZen: ND's paranoia of us made them waste time building useless units and now they are behind economically
[22:27] MasterZen: they were even strong to us for 1 turn, I freaked and emergency-mass-upgraded a ton of Riders and Muskets
[22:27] Krill: best thing that could have happened, I suppose, HAH
[22:27] Krill: oops
[22:28] Krill: You must have had a lot of spare gold then...
[22:28] MasterZen: Leo's helps
[22:28] MasterZen: we did 100% tax for one turn to do that
[22:29] Krill: OH, yeah, did you use a GL for that?
[22:29] Krill: remember I have only been around a few months. (6 months on Poly and almost 1000 posts.)
[22:29] MasterZen: you spammer
[22:29] Krill: I do have a few skills...
[22:30] MasterZen: for Leo's? nope, we beat everyone to it fair and square :P
[22:30] MasterZen: you should know that GoW's initial building was rather... pathetic
[22:30] * MasterZen wasn't there of course
[22:30] Krill: Really? Congrats, I bet NYE tore most of his hair out, and the generals as well...
[22:30] MasterZen: Leo's won that war for us
[22:31] MasterZen: if you knew how many Riders we had at the end, you'd all have **** your pants
[22:31] Krill: I have a pic from just before the war. I was really suprised you did not get as much land.
[22:31] MasterZen: well luck had a lot to do with it. 3 civs were crunched on the top half of bob
[22:32] MasterZen: Lux of course, paid the first price
[22:32] Krill: Do you know where Lux started?
[22:32] MasterZen: look at the nice ruin near Yellowknife
[22:32] MasterZen: we will forever keep it
[22:32] Krill: Ouch.
[22:32] MasterZen: they say the ghost of Trip still haunts it
[22:32] Krill: RP should have done better.
[22:33] MasterZen: RP had the entire southern half of bob for themselves
[22:33] Krill: Nah, HE haunts the hole world and their forums...
[22:33] MasterZen: hehe
[22:33] Krill: WE digress.
[22:34] MasterZen: RP had a disproportionate percentage of resources and luxes also
[22:34] MasterZen: it was obvious they had to go
[22:34] Krill: True, and Ansar and Riders would help...
[22:35] MasterZen: it's still a miracle GoW has gotten this far
[22:35] MasterZen: we never had iron until AFTER the RP war
[22:35] Krill: You lot lucked out. We lost 5 pop to disease at the beginning
[22:35] MasterZen: our FIVE-TILE city spacing sucked
[22:35] Krill: no, Lego gave it to you, we think.
[22:35] MasterZen: what I meant is that we were never in possession of it
[22:36] MasterZen: our backwardness was terrible
[22:36] MasterZen: we didn't even have libraries and markets in most cities until the final turns of our GA
[22:36] MasterZen: we had TWO workers for most of the time leading up to the war!
[22:37] Krill: I will have to go shortly. Shell we chat tomorrow? 7:30 GMT? your time +5 hours?
[22:37] MasterZen: sure
[22:37] MasterZen: I will tell you the full history of GoW then tommorrow
[22:38] Krill: Ok, give away all the priceless and humourous info...
[22:38] Krill: cya
Session Close: Sun Jun 20 22:38:11 2004

EDIT: to make names show up

[Krill]

In chat again with MZ. Could some other people show up before the conversation turns to football please? Neither of us can help ourselves...

[DeepO]

Krill, I can't access apolyton.net, but in case you two are willing to migrate to another server, I'd would appreciate it!

DeepO

[Krill]

He left a while ago, althoulgh he might be back shortly (the Euro '04 matches have just finished).


What other servers do you know of?

[DeepO]

see PM

I'm currently on irc.atomicchat.net #GoW-GS

DeepO

[Krill]

He is on GoW CoFA, connecting now...

[DeepO]

Session Start: Tue Jun 22 22:18:52 2004
[22:18] : Successfully joined #GoW-GS at 10:18pm
[22:18] : Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0
[22:18] : Channel Modes: +
[22:18] : Created on Tuesday, June 22nd, 2004 at 10:18pm
[22:48] eepO: \topic #GoW-GS type my nick when you get here to notify me. I'm playing the save
[22:48] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— #GoW-GS : DeepO changes topic to 'type my nick when you get here to notify me. I'm playing the save'
[22:48] : DeepO changes topic to 'type my nick when you get here to notify me. I'm playing the save'
[22:49] [10:49pm] MasterZen (raguil@2276C98C.85BA6A53.38AAD78.IP) has joined. «2 people»
[22:49] [10:49pm] :MasterZen: hello DeepO
[22:50] eepO: hi
[22:50] eepO: good to meet you in chat
[22:50] eepO: Krill also coming?
[22:50] [10:50pm] :MasterZen: I'm telling him how to connect
[22:50] eepO: ah, ok
[22:51] [10:51pm] :MasterZen: so, how are things in Stormia?
[22:51] eepO: btw, sorry about being such a trouble, but for some reason, ploy won't let me connect
[22:51] eepO: Stormia: pollution is a pain
[22:51] [10:51pm] :MasterZen: ah, no problem, some people occasionally have difficulty, don't know why
[22:52] eepO: I always have diffuclties
[22:52] [10:52pm] Krill (chris@atomic-21BB0AD1.freedom2surf.net) has joined. «3 people»
[22:52] eepO: and only with that server... all the rest is fine
[22:52] eepO: hi Krill
[22:52] [10:52pm] :Krill: Krill is here
[22:52] [10:52pm] :Krill: HI
[22:52] eepO: okay, so let's chat about our war
[22:52] [10:52pm] :Krill: I hope you have all had a good day
[22:52] eepO: more or less, major hangover
[22:52] [10:52pm] :MasterZen: well, Italy got eliminated, so that's good
[22:53] eepO: MZ, does GoW agree to our tech plans?
[22:53] eepO: and to the price mentioned for the three techs?
[22:53] [10:53pm] :MasterZen: IIRC the price was 4500... lemme check
[22:53] eepO: also, is it possible to meet the deadline of turn 245 at the latest for invading Lego?
[22:54] eepO: yeah, it was 4k5
[22:54] [10:54pm] :Krill: we also require a saltpeter source for the next 40 turns
[22:54] eepO: not sure yet, Krill
[22:54] [10:54pm] :Krill: well, maybe
[22:54] [10:54pm] :MasterZen: saltpeter? for?
[22:54] eepO: let's wait for more people to comment
[22:54] eepO: we still have some knights laying around
[22:54] eepO: so we might upgrade them to cavs
[22:54] eepO: but only as pillagers....
[22:55] [10:55pm] :Krill: in addition to conquistadors
[22:55] eepO: well, yeah
[22:55] eepO: we have to get RP into this
[22:55] [10:55pm] :MasterZen: RP going to be fully into this?
[22:55] eepO: don't know yet
[22:55] eepO: but these guys have nothing to do
[22:55] eepO: so giving them a war would be nice
[22:55] [10:55pm] :Krill: not fully, They may even stay out of it.
[22:55] [10:55pm] :Krill: WE remain optimistic
[22:55] eepO: if they enter, it would only be for their conqs
[22:56] eepO: great pillagers...
[22:56] eepO: better then bombers
[22:56] eepO: so, MZ, allow me to ask again
[22:56] eepO: can you meet turn 240?
[22:56] [10:56pm] :MasterZen: 240 or 245?
[22:56] eepO: well, 245 at the utmost latest
[22:57] eepO: 240 preferred
[22:57] [10:57pm] :MasterZen: this is turn 220 right?
[22:57] eepO: we figure that Lego is going to get tanks around 245...
[22:57] [10:57pm] :MasterZen: err 215?
[22:57] eepO: no, this is 216
[22:57] eepO: I mean, the one that is open here
[22:57] [10:57pm] :MasterZen: ah yes, you get to start the turn
[22:57] eepO: last one was 215
[22:57] eepO: which is a disadvantage, as Lego is last
[22:58] eepO: meaning Vox can spy for them, and RP can't do anything useful for us...
[22:58] eepO: also, do you agree to our plan of simultanously attacking both sides of Lego, to get the least defense we can get?
[22:58] [10:58pm] :MasterZen: not entirely not useful, just not as good
[22:59] eepO: well, yes. Vox is perfect for Lego
[22:59] [10:59pm] :MasterZen: I was talking to Krill about that, we were thinking about 1) decoys 2) threaning multiple objectives
[22:59] eepO: 1) decoys are most certainly going to be included
[22:59] eepO: in some form or another
[22:59] [10:59pm] :Krill: GOW want to head for jackson
[22:59] eepO: either with empty trannies, or with full
[22:59] [10:59pm] :MasterZen: BUT, jackson will likely be defended like mad
[23:00] eepO: Jackson seems ok
[23:00] [11:00pm] :MasterZen: we also don't want to land TOO far from jackson
[23:00] eepO: do you intend to invade a city, or land a hevily defended hill or so?
[23:00] [11:00pm] :Krill: Crossing looks an easier choice, but then it becomes a one fron war
[23:01] eepO: one sec, checking some maps
[23:01] [11:01pm] :MasterZen: I'd much rather invade a city, however, that will mean building 40 marines... that's a possible opportunity cost of building other, more usefull units
[23:01] [11:01pm] :MasterZen: i.e. artillery, tanks, infantry... those marines will be worth squat after the invasion
[23:01] eepO: true
[23:01] [11:01pm] :MasterZen: I'm still mixed about the idea
[23:02] eepO: but that is also why it might succeed best
[23:02] [11:02pm] :Krill: so will all the inf if they get slaughtered
[23:02] [11:02pm] :Krill: useless, that is
[23:02] eepO: in case you land some 30 infs, those will be beaten relentlessly, and losses would probably be just as high
[23:02] [11:02pm] :MasterZen: the inf will not get slaughtered without making Lego bleed
[23:02] [11:02pm] :Krill: Art?
[23:02] eepO: also true
[23:03] [11:03pm] :MasterZen: of course, infs in a city, are much better
[23:03] eepO: I don't think we would mind if you do it the other way
[23:03] [11:03pm] :Krill: redlined inf, even on a hill city, will be slaughtered
[23:03] eepO: as long as we simultaneously declare war
[23:03] [11:03pm] :Krill: just a suggestion
[23:03] eepO: and invade on the exact same turn
[23:03] [11:03pm] :MasterZen: any of you actually thought about Lego's force mix?
[23:04] eepO: not really
[23:04] eepO: but we fear marines soon...
[23:04] eepO: they can have them in 10 turns from now
[23:04] eepO: with chaining, it would mean the end of our uninvadeable island
[23:04] [11:04pm] :Krill: mostly cav, inf and art. defending.
[23:05] [11:05pm] :MasterZen: I think they have a TON of infantry
[23:05] eepO: realistic guess: 100 or so?
[23:05] eepO: that is a lot...
[23:05] [11:05pm] :Krill: more like 150
[23:05] eepO: which is why we need to threaten at least 6 or 7 cities
[23:05] [11:05pm] :MasterZen: nah, 150 is TOO much
[23:05] eepO: 150 is a lot, Krill
[23:06] [11:06pm] :Krill: I know, but worst case scenario
[23:06] eepO: also, I don't think they are building loads of units right now
[23:06] eepO: unless they are planning to invade someone
[23:06] [11:06pm] :MasterZen: look, the decoy fleet should threaten 2 objectives, the real forces should threaten another 2, that's 8 targets
[23:06] eepO: at least
[23:06] eepO: if another decoy fleet can threaten more, the better
[23:07] eepO: also, we're planning on sinking all of their pickets beforehand
[23:07] [11:07pm] :Krill: what about 2 destroyers, 3 trans, empty
[23:07] [11:07pm] :Krill: per decot
[23:07] [11:07pm] :Krill: decoy
[23:07] eepO: so if they can't scout, they will suspect even more trannies
[23:07] [11:07pm] :MasterZen: I'm trying to convince ND to do so also, send a decoy fleet
[23:07] eepO: That would be great!
[23:07] [11:07pm] :Krill: how many could we both have in addition to the necassary boats?
[23:07] eepO: BTW, would ND be involved in the fun or not?
[23:07] [11:07pm] :MasterZen: how many units is GS is planning to send?
[23:08] eepO: much needs to be decided
[23:08] [11:08pm] :MasterZen: the thing is that ND is a bit backwards compared to us
[23:08] eepO: but you should count on over 100 units in the first 2-3 turns
[23:08] [11:08pm] :MasterZen: they can't muster up a force yet since they haven't finished their factory/coalplant/hospital spree
[23:08] eepO: in that case, I'm personally hesitant to sell them tanks
[23:09] eepO: if only to make it as hard for Lego as possible to get even
[23:09] [11:09pm] :MasterZen: then don't
[23:09] eepO: well, it would also make both our lives a bit safer
[23:09] [11:09pm] :MasterZen: ours especially :P
[23:09] eepO: indeed
[23:09] [11:09pm] :MasterZen: so let's see... for example, 120 units
[23:10] eepO: take that as an example, yes
[23:10] [11:10pm] :MasterZen: each transport sends 8, that's 15 transports
[23:10] [11:10pm] :MasterZen: i'd say about 32 infs
[23:10] [11:10pm] :MasterZen: or 36
[23:10] eepO: 40 marines
[23:11] eepO: 40 tanks
[23:11] [11:11pm] :MasterZen: rest cav
[23:11] eepO: a couple of settlers, explorers
[23:11] [11:11pm] :MasterZen: hmm.. artillery too
[23:11] [11:11pm] :Krill: YOU NEED SOME MORE TRANS
[23:11] eepO: cav perhaps (those aren't included n the 120, BTW)
[23:11] [11:11pm] :MasterZen: look at it this way:
[23:11] eepO: and bombers /fighter ready
[23:11] [11:11pm] :MasterZen: we need a good mix to CONSOLIDATE
[23:11] [11:11pm] :MasterZen: follow up troops should be mostly tank/inf
[23:12] eepO: they will be, of course
[23:12] [11:12pm] :MasterZen: I get shivers just thinking about this
[23:12] eepO: and with chaining, we can decide which we need more
[23:12] eepO: fun, isn't it?
[23:13] [11:13pm] :MasterZen: but it's either we do it now, or Lego will do unto us
[23:13] eepO: if we don't do it, we're both lost
[23:13] [11:13pm] :MasterZen: we could always nuke the crap out of them
[23:13] eepO: Lego is getting too big
[23:13] eepO: if they're not first
[23:14] eepO: with Hoover, and factories everywhere, we never even came close to their productive power
[23:14] [11:14pm] :MasterZen: do you know if they have oil?
[23:14] eepO: yes they have
[23:14] [11:14pm] :MasterZen: well, we're not even close either, though I could do some "testing" to see
[23:14] [11:14pm] :MasterZen: but highly unlikely
[23:14] eepO: ultimately, that is the problem
[23:15] eepO: they haven't even gotten to hospitals
[23:15] eepO: and have a loose build
[23:15] eepO: so there really is no choice...
[23:15] [11:15pm] :MasterZen: also, we need to think about ultimate objectives:
[23:15] eepO: Oh, and Lego knows this
[23:15] eepO: they are expecting to be attacked
[23:15] [11:15pm] :MasterZen: GS should obviouly target their FP core
[23:15] [11:15pm] :MasterZen: we should target the Jackson are
[23:15] [11:15pm] :MasterZen: a
[23:15] eepO: which is why we are lobbying to break all deals with them
[23:16] [11:16pm] :MasterZen: we need to know where their damn FP is
[23:16] eepO: we probably need a map
[23:16] eepO: and having a spy would be fun too, to see their forces
[23:17] [11:17pm] :MasterZen: having a spy would be fabulous
[23:17] eepO: but who can go for espionage in time?
[23:17] [11:17pm] :MasterZen: ND?
[23:17] eepO: perhaps
[23:17] eepO: if they want to, it would be superb
[23:17] [11:17pm] :MasterZen: we'd still need to build the Intel Agency
[23:17] eepO: prebuild...
[23:17] eepO: and only one of us need it: us
[23:17] [11:17pm] :MasterZen: we cna't afford it
[23:18] eepO: we can share info to you
[23:18] eepO: how many shields in the Intel Agency?
[23:18] eepO: 400 or something?
[23:18] [11:18pm] :MasterZen: probably
[23:18] eepO: that's 4 tanks...
[23:18] eepO: it is worth 4 tanks
[23:19] eepO: and by splitting the cost, and the info gained
[23:19] eepO: it would be quite beneficial
[23:19] [11:19pm] :MasterZen: ND should collaborate with this
[23:19] eepO: indeed, if they want to
[23:19] [11:19pm] :MasterZen: if they can't send troops, at least they should finance our little spy activities
[23:19] eepO: agreed
[23:19] eepO: but they are also going to expecting something in return
[23:19] [11:19pm] :MasterZen: though the longer the war lasts, the more likely they'll intervene
[23:19] eepO: other then techs...
[23:19] eepO: ND?
[23:19] [11:19pm] :MasterZen: yep
[23:20] eepO: on which side?
[23:20] [11:20pm] :MasterZen: on OURS of course
[23:20] eepO: ah
[23:20] [11:20pm] :MasterZen: Darekill told me he's game, but that economics are a priority right now since they are backwards to us
[23:20] eepO: well, they're welcome
[23:20] eepO: yeah, we noticed
[23:20] eepO: a couple of turns ago, we analysed how far they were behind
[23:20] [11:20pm] :MasterZen: in a way that was an advantage, Zayxus was so paranoid of GoW he spent quite a lot to get military parity
[23:21] eepO: we've been blessed with our sea wall
[23:21] eepO: but right now, we're only building units
[23:21] eepO: apart from a couple of last buildings
[23:21] [11:21pm] :MasterZen: we still have to finish stuff, our first 2 cities start building this turn
[23:22] eepO: yeah, but you're still strong compared to us
[23:22] [11:22pm] :MasterZen: hoover gave you quite a time advantage, if not an productive one, vis-a-vis us
[23:22] eepO: well, as of last turn
[23:22] eepO: haven't checked this turn
[23:22] eepO: Hoover was nice
[23:22] eepO: but it costs a lot for us
[23:22] eepO: the shield count is enough for 4 Hydroplants
[23:23] [11:23pm] :Krill: But it provided slightly more than that
[23:23] [11:23pm] :MasterZen: but it gives you quite a bang for the buck
[23:23] eepO: so to us, it's not that big a deal for our selves
[23:23] [11:23pm] :Krill: Think of what would have happened if Lego had it
[23:23] eepO: it's more a thing that we couldn't let it happen to Lego
[23:23] eepO: indeedv
[23:23] [11:23pm] :Krill: beat you
[23:23] [11:23pm] :MasterZen: yeah
[23:24] eepO: but we're not complaining
[23:24] [11:24pm] :MasterZen: well look at it this way: GS is going down in history as the civ who beat everyone else to most wonders
[23:24] eepO: Hoover is one of the only reasons why we still have some power
[23:24] [11:24pm] :MasterZen: nah, i'd say it was Copernicus and Newton's
[23:24] eepO: but our window is closing very fast
[23:24] eepO: those we're nice too
[23:25] eepO: anyway
[23:25] eepO: back to the war
[23:25] eepO: basic plans what they are
[23:25] eepO: could you check if you can economically make turn 240?
[23:25] [11:25pm] :MasterZen: I told you what our ojectives should be:
[23:25] eepO: ah yes
[23:26] eepO: and I agree on those
[23:26] [11:26pm] :MasterZen: I was planning on this weekend doing an-indepth economic analysis to see
[23:26] eepO: BTW, our first objective is to get Lego down from their first position
[23:26] [11:26pm] :MasterZen: I haven't really had time right now
[23:26] eepO: totally conquering it would be nice, of course
[23:26] [11:26pm] :MasterZen: since I am pretty much the only really active GoWer :P
[23:26] eepO: ok, np
[23:26] [11:26pm] :MasterZen: or rather.... I AM GoW
[23:26] eepO: GS has been calm as well
[23:27] [11:27pm] :MasterZen: conquering them will be well near impossible
[23:27] [11:27pm] :MasterZen: what we COULD do and it'd be fun, is to take out Vox
[23:27] eepO: the game needs to end soon, or everybody is gone
[23:27] eepO: bah, Vox...
[23:27] eepO: nm, them
[23:27] eepO: it is possible to take out Lego
[23:27] eepO: but question is how long it will take
[23:27] [11:27pm] :Krill: MZ, this game will become a PBEM anyday now...
[23:27] eepO: and if it would be worth it
[23:27] [11:27pm] :MasterZen: lol
[23:28] eepO: I hope not
[23:28] [11:28pm] :MasterZen: see, without Vox, Lego is alone
[23:28] eepO: true...
[23:28] [11:28pm] :MasterZen: now consider,
[23:28] [11:28pm] :MasterZen: what would be harder:
[23:28] [11:28pm] :MasterZen: 1) conquer Lego completely?
[23:28] [11:28pm] :MasterZen: 2) cripple them and conquer Vox?
[23:28] [11:28pm] :MasterZen: either way it keeps them out of the game
[23:28] eepO: you have a point
[23:28] eepO: one that we need to discuss in team
[23:29] [11:29pm] :MasterZen: yep
[23:29] [11:29pm] :MasterZen: though admittedly I am sympathetic to Vox, but we must do what we must
[23:29] eepO: but we both agree that Lego needs to be crippled first
[23:29] [11:29pm] :MasterZen: ahh yes
[23:29] [11:29pm] :MasterZen: without their FP and Jackson, they are ****ed
[23:29] eepO: Vox: well, we fouoght them once
[23:29] [11:29pm] :MasterZen: (this sounds like the ISDG.. hehehe)
[23:29] eepO:
[23:29] [11:29pm] :Krill:
[23:29] [11:29pm] :MasterZen: of course this makes the ISDG operation feeble in comparison
[23:30] eepO: their FP is going to be a big hit, yes
[23:30] eepO: but it will be a hard nut to crack
[23:30] [11:30pm] :MasterZen: IF we take out their FP we can perhaps conquer them with enough reinforcements
[23:30] [11:30pm] :MasterZen: without FP perhaps GoW alone will be more productive than them. Add GS, and add ND coming later, they are ****ed
[23:30] eepO: do you have any idea if they would draft infs?
[23:31] [11:31pm] :Krill: to survibe? of course
[23:31] [11:31pm] :MasterZen: In a desperate situation, i'd be drafting infs and going militarized
[23:31] [11:31pm] :Krill: survive