DIPLO: Glory of War contact LOG

[Arrian]

Response PM from UnO:

RE: RE: Proof of MPP's
Hey Arrian,

I posted a response, but it got buried in a hurry. Please relay this to the team as well.

I can understand hesitation, sure. I'll be frank. Was there an MPP? Yes. Did it expire? Im looking right now, this is difficult, more on that in a minute.

Our team does not consider MPP's an NAP. I have told NYE that, but more importantly ROLEPLAY knew that. They had no right to be expecting it as an NAP. I can prove that RP believed them TWO SEPERATE deals as well, but am hesitant to do so, given the proof is negotiations between RP and myself. If, however, it will ease GS relations, I will poll on it.

I will tell you this. In my negotiations with RP, they drafted a contract that specifically stated it was to be seen as BOTH an MPP and a NAP. Tell me, if MPP included an NAP to them, would they have specified both in the contract I was negotiating?

RP knew they were seperate negotiations, they are only now complaining to suit their own needs. As far as GS and negotiations in the future, make sure you get an NAP with us if you want to be safe from attack. It is as simple as that, and the reason we were hell bent on sigining one with you guys in the first place.

Now. The MPP in question is a dubious piece of writing at its best. There was no mention of a starting date or turn, nor was there mention of an ENDING date or turn, just a general 'this is for 30 turns'. We have learned from this and will change documenting procedures in the future.

What I do know is RP has continually changed how many turns are left on it in their private discussions with us. Again, I can prduce evidence but hesitate to do so. We acted under the belief that it had expired. Plain and simple. RP's last statement even claims it expires after the present turn. Given the ambiguity of the contract, I feel RP is again attempting to stretch it so that we appear to have violated. However, also given the ambiguity, I cannot prove such, hence we are not publicly crying out in such a manner. Lets just say RP and ourselves disagree on when it ended. It is easier to use what we CAN prove, publicly: It was not an NAP, and RP knew it.

Anything else, please feel free to ask.

- UnOrthOdOx (Cole)

I sent back a quick "I understand if you can't provide documentation. Thanks for the explanantion. I'll post it."

[notyoueither]

Received from UnO.

UnOrthOdOx wrote on 20-07-2003 09:34:
Honorable zeit,

I am sorry for not being able to make the chat. With Poly down, I have no way to access a chat program from work. Had poly remained, I would have been able to attend via Java.

It seems it was an impasse. However, I have one last idea, and i copy it here as posted in our forum:

Just an idea.

I was looking over the chatlog of the three-way chat.

What if....

we have only discussed either us getting those cities that GS wants, or them. THey don't want to leave them to someone else for security reasons. We don't want them having a beachhead for security reasons.

What IF...we agree to making that a demilitarized zone?

GS gets the cities until the end of Lego. At that time they are disbanded, and only colonies are left on the lux. No settlement is allowed. I don't have the map at the moment, but we each make sure we all have that lux. IE, a colony for GoW, ND, and GS. 1 defender each or some such, and outposts to clear the fog.

Then, we would be able to see a landing, and respond as if it were an invasion. They would see ships and respond the same.

It is an idea, and only an idea. What do you think?

I don't see how permanant cities are going to work, frankly. It is too convenient of a beachhead for invasions.

As laid out, temporary cities until Lego is dealt with, then you move to lego and disband the cities. Some # of turns can be reached to allow this to happen, I am sure. Next, this area is left unsettled, and we all build outposts and colonies. The outposts allow us both to see if the other is intending an invasion. There would be no one move navy outposts to invade GS, and there would be no beachhead to invade Bob. Currently this is only my ramblings, but I see it as the only compromise possible under the circumstances. Surely GS can understand the hesitation to give a nation a beachhead onto Bob, and we can certainly understand the hesitation on GS's part to have a one-turn shipping lane to Stormia. Perhaps something can be arranged, therefore.

It is in all our interest to finish this as soon as possible and move to Lego. The longer we all wait, the tougher they become.

Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx

[notyoueither]

Damn. This computer was not set up to log.
Summary of short chat with MZ.

MZ: We'd like to know what is going on.
nye: Well, ND made it clear that we were unwelcome on Bob. Spain has been more acommodating.
MZ: I bet they sold their souls. I have less respect for them.
MZ: We will repect the NAP. But our Riders will pursue RP to the ends of the Earth.
nye: OK. We will respect the NAP too.
MZ: We expect ND will bypass your cities as well.
nye: btw, our cultural borders are important to us
MZ: If you attack ND, we would see that as very serious.
nye: OK

That is about how I remember it. Some phrases are inexact, but that was the jist of it. I begged off as being very short on time, which is true. I have to get back to work.

[notyoueither]

On the carpet, with GoW

Session Start: Mon Jul 21 18:45:47 2003
Session Ident: #GoW
[18:45] * Now talking in #GoW
[18:45] * UnOrthOdOx sets mode: +o notyoueither
[18:46] * UnOrthOdOx sets mode: +k Raiders
[18:46] *UnOrthOdOx* How are things?
[18:46] *notyoueither* just one moment. i was sort of in the middle of a post
[18:47] * UnOrthOdOx sets mode: +p
[18:47] *UnOrthOdOx* NP, so am I
[18:47] *UnOrthOdOx* Being President and all...
[18:48] *notyoueither* cool. i hope that game goes well, i am not paying too much attention. sort of busy
[18:49] *UnOrthOdOx* It's...difficult
[18:49] *UnOrthOdOx* Just getting attention, really
[18:49] *notyoueither* too many games going on
[18:49] *UnOrthOdOx* yep.
[18:49] *UnOrthOdOx* It's the least interesting despite the interesting settings
[18:50] *notyoueither* i would be fascinated, if it were not to prior commitments
[18:50] *UnOrthOdOx* Alright shall we get to the business at hand?
[18:50] *notyoueither* sure
[18:51] *UnOrthOdOx* First the NAP, is there a reason for me not having a copy yet?
[18:51] *notyoueither* i chatted with mz. did you see a log?
[18:51] *notyoueither* zeit tole me he sent it to you
[18:51] *UnOrthOdOx* Nope, let me check the forum, been busy in the SPDG
[18:51] *notyoueither* i am sending you a copy of the NAP
[18:52] *UnOrthOdOx* Nope, nothing in my PM or E-mail history (and I am BAD at clearing it.)
[18:53] *UnOrthOdOx* IM checking our forum for a log...
[18:54] *UnOrthOdOx* Nothing was posted, but there is a possible reason for this...
[18:54] *UnOrthOdOx* I am considering resigning as your ambassador.
[18:54] *UnOrthOdOx* Informed MZ today to begin looking for a replacement.
[18:54] *UnOrthOdOx* When did you chat?
[18:54] *UnOrthOdOx* Today?
[18:57] *notyoueither* yes, after i got to work and got on top of things. i logged on to mirc to follow up with you. mz was there.
[18:58] *notyoueither* unfortunately, that computer was not set to log
[18:58] *UnOrthOdOx* Ok, what was covered then?
[18:58] *UnOrthOdOx* Sorry for having to ask.
[18:58] *notyoueither* it would be too bad to lose you as our ambassador
[18:58] *UnOrthOdOx* Not professional
[18:58] *notyoueither* np
[18:58] *notyoueither* i will copy into here my summary of it to gs
[18:58] *UnOrthOdOx* I will try to remain, but...I want to devote more time to the newseditor...
[18:59] *notyoueither* ahh. ok
[18:59] *UnOrthOdOx* Perhaps just temporary till my Presidency is over.
[18:59] *notyoueither* MZ: We'd like to know what is going on.
[18:59] *notyoueither* nye: Well, ND made it clear that we were unwelcome on Bob. Spain has been more acommodating.
[18:59] *notyoueither* MZ: I bet they sold their souls. I have less respect for them.
[18:59] *notyoueither* MZ: We will repect the NAP. But our Riders will pursue RP to the ends of the Earth.
[18:59] *notyoueither* nye: OK. We will respect the NAP too.
[18:59] *notyoueither* MZ: We expect ND will bypass your cities as well.
[18:59] *notyoueither* nye: btw, our cultural borders are important to us
[18:59] *notyoueither* MZ: If you attack ND, we would see that as very serious.
[18:59] *notyoueither* nye: OK
[19:00] *notyoueither* some of the phrasing is inexact. i could not recall all of it
[19:00] *notyoueither* and the sequence may be a little out of order
[19:00] *UnOrthOdOx* Short then.
[19:01] *notyoueither* yes. i did not have much time. work
[19:01] *UnOrthOdOx* Can you divulge the nature of your contract with RP?
[19:01] *UnOrthOdOx* And, also, I take it this means you decline the compromise I sent along?
[19:02] *notyoueither* the discussions with spain continue
[19:02] *notyoueither* compromise? let me look at that again
[19:02] *UnOrthOdOx* Of course. Do you have an NAP with RP then?
[19:03] *UnOrthOdOx* I copied you...PM named Chat Response
[19:03] *notyoueither* yes. got it
[19:03] *UnOrthOdOx* Sorry for not making that chat, I believe it would have been more productive if I had been there to suggest it at that time.
[19:03] *notyoueither* looking to refresh my memory
[19:04] *notyoueither* that was an interesting compromise. it might have worked if it had come several days earlier
[19:05] *notyoueither* unfortunately, our reading of the chat was that nd wanted to grow too big.
[19:05] *notyoueither* and would brook no compromise
[19:06] *UnOrthOdOx* Well, is it too late to reconsider?
[19:06] *UnOrthOdOx* This is not official yet, but it has received positive feedback from ND and GoW so far
[19:07] *notyoueither* we will not attack spain at this point
[19:07] *UnOrthOdOx* Alright...would you consider not assisting them for this?
[19:07] *notyoueither* i could not assure that
[19:07] *UnOrthOdOx* May I be frank?
[19:08] *notyoueither* please do
[19:08] *UnOrthOdOx* How does this accomplish your goals?
[19:08] * Panzer32 has joined #gow
[19:09] *Panzer32* mind if Trip comes in?
[19:09] *notyoueither* np
[19:09] *notyoueither* well, UnO. I mentioned that the territory we discussed was considered very important to GS.
[19:09] * Trip has joined #gow
[19:10] *UnOrthOdOx* I understand that, but it also delays any possible invasion of Lego does it not?
[19:10] *UnOrthOdOx* And, it seems you gave up on all negotiations before they were finished.
[19:10] *notyoueither* possibly. we do not know how diplo between rp and nd will play out. actually, we have no clue
[19:11] *UnOrthOdOx* Your goal then is to cease this and focus us all on Lego?
[19:12] *notyoueither* our first goal was to secure the territory we mentioned.
[19:12] *notyoueither* we do not know what else is possible now
[19:12] * UnOrthOdOx sets mode: +o Panzer32
[19:12] * UnOrthOdOx sets mode: +o Trip
[19:13] *Panzer32* why do you accept the western RP city then? It is nowhere near where you want
[19:13] *notyoueither* rp's idea
[19:13] *notyoueither* i suppose that they just want to deny nd
[19:14] *notyoueither* i assume they are discussing as fast as their pms and emails can fly
[19:14] *UnOrthOdOx* Do you intend to attack ND?
[19:14] *notyoueither* i saw the nd peace terms post. is that underway
[19:14] *notyoueither* ?
[19:14] *UnOrthOdOx* ?
[19:14] *UnOrthOdOx* Peace terms?
[19:15] *Panzer32* link?
[19:15] *UnOrthOdOx* I missed that one
[19:15] *notyoueither* nd posted that they had delivered terms to rp
[19:15] *notyoueither* in their embassy thread
[19:15] *Panzer32* oh, the turn all the cities over to them one?
[19:16] *UnOrthOdOx* nye, I have one question really remaining.
[19:16] *UnOrthOdOx* Why did we learn of this third hand?
[19:16] *notyoueither* We have only declared war on spain here in the public so far. Our troops have crossed the borders and are ready to begin the war next turn. This is the last chance for Roleplay to surrender. This must be a surrender without conditions we will tell you what we want and you will obey. If you do not capitulate the war will start.
[19:17] *Panzer32* uh huh
[19:17] *notyoueither* UnO. it was not final until very late last night/ early this morning
[19:17] *Panzer32* do you think that RP would agree to that?
[19:17] *notyoueither* i was out of gas
[19:17] *notyoueither* zeit has not been arounbd
[19:18] *notyoueither* that is why i made a point of coming back on from work
[19:18] *UnOrthOdOx* An unfortunate set of circumstances then.
[19:18] *notyoueither* yes
[19:18] *UnOrthOdOx* Same as my compromise not making it in time.
[19:18] *notyoueither* yes
[19:19] *UnOrthOdOx* Would it be possible to work on that compromise in exchange for no furhter assistance given to RP?
[19:20] *UnOrthOdOx* I personally see it as the only way for all of us to remain at peace throughout a Lego campaign
[19:20] *notyoueither* i think that that proposal, involving nd, is off the table from our pov
[19:20] *notyoueither* i have a q
[19:20] *UnOrthOdOx* sure
[19:20] *notyoueither* will gow respect our cultural borders?
[19:21] *notyoueither* gs cultural borders
[19:21] *UnOrthOdOx* I cannot give an official answer yet.
[19:21] *notyoueither* we do not have an rop
[19:21] *Panzer32* you block our path to RP and ask us to respect the borders?
[19:21] *notyoueither* that is the position of gs
[19:21] *UnOrthOdOx* The world changed suddenly on us
[19:21] *notyoueither* yes, uno. it did
[19:21] *UnOrthOdOx* Can an RoP be arranged?
[19:22] *notyoueither* we are sorry that it is gow that this has come to pass with
[19:22] *notyoueither* RoP could be discussed
[19:22] *notyoueither* it would not be likely in the near future
[19:22] *UnOrthOdOx* Well, you have placed us in a difficult set of circumstances.
[19:23] *UnOrthOdOx* If you choose to block us, it will hamper our agreements.
[19:23] *notyoueither* i understand. similar to when we found out that rp was the target, and we were to be denied land that we considered vital
[19:23] *UnOrthOdOx* I never saw that as a closed negotiation.
[19:23] *UnOrthOdOx* Just as an ongoing one.
[19:23] *notyoueither* time closed it. nd's attitude is clear
[19:24] *notyoueither* they want to be a super civ
[19:24] *UnOrthOdOx* My idea would have worked.
[19:24] *notyoueither* one that would be better to take on than lego, perhaps
[19:24] *Panzer32* And what if we do the same thing you did to us (ie just march through your territory, temporarily)?
[19:25] *notyoueither* we marched through you territory?
[19:25] *UnOrthOdOx* ?
[19:25] *Panzer32* figurativly
[19:25] *UnOrthOdOx* Look, nye.
[19:25] *notyoueither* we regard cultural borders as something to be respected
[19:26] *notyoueither* we would consider that we were being hostile if we violated yours
[19:26] *UnOrthOdOx* We only come to this course after considering everyone's position. We were under the impression that RP was what you would back.
[19:26] *notyoueither* it was possible, UnO. and then we were met with nd's attitude of zenophobia
[19:26] *UnOrthOdOx* I have statements from several members stating such
[19:27] *UnOrthOdOx* You can see our confusion then.
[19:27] *notyoueither* yes. we can
[19:27] *notyoueither* brb
[19:28] *UnOrthOdOx* Panzer, I need to bath my son, B back in about 5 min.
[19:28] *Panzer32* ok
[19:33] *notyoueither* good to go, UnO. Take your time
[19:34] *UnOrthOdOx* Alright.
[19:34] *notyoueither* could i ask, how extensive are your agreements with nd?
[19:34] *UnOrthOdOx* The last thing we want is to have this descend into an all out war between RP/GS and ND/GoW
[19:34] *UnOrthOdOx* Right now, to take out RP.
[19:35] *notyoueither* understood
[19:35] *UnOrthOdOx* Beyond that, there is nothing.
[19:35] *notyoueither* ok
[19:35] *UnOrthOdOx* Not even an NAP.
[19:35] *UnOrthOdOx* Which is why we wanted you on the island...
[19:35] *UnOrthOdOx* However, this is not the best way to accomplish that.
[19:36] *notyoueither* we understand your view
[19:36] *UnOrthOdOx* I wish we would have been given an opportunity to have the compromise considered is all
[19:36] *notyoueither* so do i
[19:36] *notyoueither* what if rp could be directed towards lego?
[19:36] *UnOrthOdOx* Now, it is difficult to see your actions as anything other than aggressive.
[19:37] *UnOrthOdOx* Having us not even been informed beforehand.
[19:37] *UnOrthOdOx* ND meanwhile was at least informed.
[19:37] *UnOrthOdOx* This makes us question where we rank with GS.
[19:37] *notyoueither* understood
[19:37] *UnOrthOdOx* Our contract is for the destruction of RP.
[19:38] *notyoueither* again, what if rp could be directed at lego?
[19:38] *UnOrthOdOx* We will not break a contract.
[19:38] *notyoueither* can you tell me nay of the terms of that contract?
[19:38] *UnOrthOdOx* If ND is convinced to wish a change, though, it might be done.
[19:38] *notyoueither* *any
[19:39] *Panzer32* directed at Lego? What does this mean?
[19:39] *UnOrthOdOx* It is for the destruction of RP...plain and simple. And an agreement to split the island after.
[19:39] *notyoueither* did they pay you for the contract? what do you receive?
[19:40] *UnOrthOdOx* 1 we were guaranteed not to be the targets, 2. more territory, resources, lux...Civ related stuff.
[19:40] *UnOrthOdOx* Same as we all look for
[19:40] *notyoueither* was the territory defined?
[19:41] *UnOrthOdOx* No, it is to be split equally by tiles and resources.
[19:41] *notyoueither* ok
[19:41] *notyoueither* back to your question. i mean, what if rp could join in against lego?
[19:41] *UnOrthOdOx* I don't know
[19:41] *notyoueither* think on that
[19:41] *UnOrthOdOx* We would have to cross that bridge when it came.
[19:42] *UnOrthOdOx* However, can three Bobian civs now live peacefully?
[19:42] *notyoueither* another. is gow open to other contracts?
[19:42] *Panzer32* you mean a 4 way alliance against Lego?
[19:42] *UnOrthOdOx* As long as they do not violate our current ones.
[19:42] *UnOrthOdOx* We are always open.
[19:42] *notyoueither* ok
[19:43] *notyoueither* well, panzer. it appears that you are gaining from an association with nd, and we are gaining from an association with rp
[19:43] *notyoueither* 4 would be good. 3 could still work
[19:44] *UnOrthOdOx* You have 3 in mind?
[19:44] *notyoueither* i am asking hypotheticals largely. we are still getting used to the politics of bob
[19:44] *notyoueither* as i said. 4 would be good
[19:45] *UnOrthOdOx* I think WE are still getting used to the politics
[19:45] *notyoueither* heh
[19:45] *UnOrthOdOx* Can you give us any details of your arrangement with RP?
[19:46] *notyoueither* not really. sort of by the seat of the pants at the moment
[19:46] *notyoueither* we are fond of those who welcome us though
[19:46] *notyoueither* brb
[19:47] *notyoueither* back
[19:48] *UnOrthOdOx* Im afraid I am pressed for time and need to log off to call my wife before I put the kids to bed
[19:48] *Panzer32* ok
[19:48] *UnOrthOdOx* I must express that there are some on our team that see this as an act of aggression against us.
[19:48] *notyoueither* np, UnO. We both have much to think on. We can meet again
[19:49] *notyoueither* we understand
[19:49] *UnOrthOdOx* I honestly do not know how the team will go right now.
[19:49] *notyoueither* we don;t see how it is different from conquest by military means though
[19:49] *UnOrthOdOx* No, it is not.
[19:50] *notyoueither* someone mentioned racing to see who could get cities forst
[19:50] *UnOrthOdOx* Same as our buying the Vox city.
[19:50] *notyoueither* cool. then they will die
[19:50] *notyoueither* oh. you mean port isolation
[19:50] *notyoueither* sorry
[19:51] *notyoueither* i thought you meant another one
[19:52] *notyoueither* but, if they sold the last to you. our quarrel would be with them. not you.
[19:52] *UnOrthOdOx* Sorry, door
[19:52] *notyoueither* np
[19:53] *notyoueither* i just went into babble mode
[19:53] *UnOrthOdOx* I can see your buying what you set out for.
[19:53] *UnOrthOdOx* Beyond that, it seems more agressive.
[19:54] *notyoueither* i can understand there will be misgivings. there would be if we were beat to cities
[19:54] *UnOrthOdOx* And...hampering our efforts would not likely go over all that well either.
[19:55] *notyoueither* we understand completely, UnO. We felt the same about a recent chat
[19:56] *UnOrthOdOx* Sorry, did you answer if you would consider the compromise in exchange for no further help...I can't seem to find a response.
[19:56] *notyoueither* let me look
[19:57] *notyoueither* *notyoueither* i think that that proposal, involving nd, is off the table from our pov
[19:58] *notyoueither* we don;t trust them, UnO. They must get all the gains.
[19:58] *UnOrthOdOx* Based off one chat?
[19:58] *notyoueither* that has been their position since Vox
[19:59] *UnOrthOdOx* Vox?
[19:59] *notyoueither* don;t forget, wee were attacked by Vox as a result of their zenophobia
[19:59] *UnOrthOdOx* I didn't know they got involved in that.
[19:59] *UnOrthOdOx* Oh...
[19:59] *UnOrthOdOx* Ours and RP's as well.
[19:59] *notyoueither* if it were a squabble between you and Vox. we would not have been attacked, in all lekelihood
[19:59] *UnOrthOdOx* No, RP and ND all agreed to attack.

[notyoueither]

cont.

[20:00] *notyoueither* yes. we can see rp wanting to scheme to get us embroiled in a war
[20:00] *Panzer32* how was Vox' position zenophobic? It made sense from a civ point of view; they were never going to win from that landmass
[20:00] *notyoueither* nd seems to believe that the biggest continent in the game by far is their divine right
[20:00] *notyoueither* not vox zenophobic, nd
[20:00] *Panzer32* nd was zenophobic why?
[20:00] *notyoueither* gs can not tolerate any civ that declares bob to be off limits
[20:01] *UnOrthOdOx* And you don't trust us to be able to deal with that, it seems.
[20:01] *Panzer32* er.. how?
[20:01] *notyoueither* t6hat means we lose, guaranteed.
[20:01] *UnOrthOdOx* You don't trust us to ensure ND does not grow powerfull, this is what has spurred this on then.
[20:01] *notyoueither* bob is just palin, flat out, way too big
[20:02] *notyoueither* *plain
[20:02] *UnOrthOdOx* Despite ongoing negotiations on our part to get you involved.
[20:02] *UnOrthOdOx* Which could have included our giving some of our own territory to you.
[20:02] *notyoueither* UnO, we are still left with the underlying motivation of ND since long, long, ago
[20:02] *UnOrthOdOx* We were just not given a chance.
[20:03] *UnOrthOdOx* I can see that, but you are also placing us at odds.
[20:03] *notyoueither* we are not saying it is war this second, UnO. We would like to find a way to find peaceful accomodations with GoW.
[20:03] *notyoueither* we were offered what we wanted. we took it.
[20:04] *notyoueither* nd will have to accept that, or there will be blows exchanged
[20:05] *UnOrthOdOx* nye, You must see where I am coming from. I had a proposal that gave you your security, us ours, and ND theirs.
[20:05] *UnOrthOdOx* Yet. It was denied.
[20:06] *UnOrthOdOx* It was sent to you before this deal with RP was finished if, as you say, it was finalized late last night.
[20:06] *notyoueither* UnO. What you proposed would see the growth of a gigantic ND, long before we ever saw a harvest on Lego.
[20:06] *notyoueither* i doubt you and we together could have contained them
[20:06] *UnOrthOdOx* It gave you cities on bob, the ones you asked for, durin that time.
[20:07] *Panzer32* Remember the territory agreement - ND and GoW would be THE SAME SIZE!
[20:07] *notyoueither* temporary. and most of RP for ND to grow in. that would have made them larger than lego
[20:07] *UnOrthOdOx* I feel that myself, my team, and my teams position were dismissed.
[20:07] *UnOrthOdOx* You know not how the map would have played out.
[20:07] *notyoueither* ND could have used the land, soon. and they were hostile to us. GoW would have taken a lot of time to make any land productive
[20:08] *Panzer32* your words still show that you do not know of the agreement; I assure you that the deal is more equitable than you think
[20:08] *UnOrthOdOx* You didn't give them a chance to view my proposal either. They were opposed to a beachhead. Anyone would be, it's smart civving!
[20:08] *notyoueither* UnO, we were never given information about which areas went to which. We were told we were not welcome to stay.
[20:09] *notyoueither* UnO, we understand that. Sometimes agreements can not be reached between friends even, but we saw and see ND as hostile to our presense on Bob, and that we can not abide.
[20:11] *UnOrthOdOx* I don't think hostile is the right word. Opposed to a beachhead, sure. It only makes sense.
[20:11] *notyoueither* From some PoV's, sure. However, as I said, count tiles. Pop is power.
[20:12] *notyoueither* We have power now, but it wanes. Too few tiles.
[20:12] *UnOrthOdOx* And once RR are created you will be as invincible as Lego, yet you wanted a beachead to further your expansion after that.
[20:13] *Panzer32* do you have the # of tiles of Estonia?
[20:13] *notyoueither* We were being asked to assist in the enlargement of a civ that was hostile to our interests, and to do it with no permanent gain for us, til way down the road. In the meantime, that hotile civ would have become the largest in the game.
[20:13] *notyoueither* Panzer, I will get them for you
[20:13] *Panzer32* now or later?
[20:13] *notyoueither* we wanted a beachhead to prevent 1 turn marine attacks.
[20:14] *notyoueither* our ports would have been way to far from your caps and hearttlands to be any threat as great as that
[20:15] *UnOrthOdOx* And now what are you being asked to do? Prevent the smallest civ (Vox doesn't count and we both know it) from it's only means of expanding. My compromise still prevented the marine attacks, and I said a # of turns could be arranged to ensure your setup on Lego.
[20:15] *notyoueither* panzer. i am not sure where the tile counts are
[20:15] *notyoueither* i will get it for you tonight
[20:15] *Panzer32* ok, thanks. Don't worry about sending me bob, I have the #
[20:16] *notyoueither* counting stormia is not hard. there is not that much of it
[20:16] *UnOrthOdOx* I MUST go to get things done before my chat.
[20:16] *UnOrthOdOx* Panzer, you can continue from here.
[20:16] *UnOrthOdOx* nye, a pleasure as always.
[20:16] *notyoueither* i have to move along soon too
[20:16] *notyoueither* UnO, agreed
[20:16] *UnOrthOdOx* I will try to remain as your ambassador, but am being pulled in many directions.
[20:16] *notyoueither* take care of the family
[20:17] *notyoueither* we understand, and would await your return
[20:17] *UnOrthOdOx* See you all in 45 min on undernet #civ3dem....
[20:17] *UnOrthOdOx* ?
[20:17] *UnOrthOdOx*
[20:17] *notyoueither*
[20:17] *Panzer32* probably not for me
[20:17] * UnOrthOdOx has left #GoW
[20:18] *Panzer32* just a minute... I'll count Estonia
[20:20] *notyoueither* Estonia must be some strange foreign land. I do not know of it.
[20:20] *notyoueither*
[20:21] *Panzer32* maybe Estormia??
[20:24] *notyoueither* Stormia?
[20:24] *notyoueither* i count 205 land
[20:25] *notyoueither* which is less than half of bob. far less. it might even be less than one-third
[20:25] *Panzer32* I count 202... so around ther
[20:25] *notyoueither* i think i may have hit one or two extra
[20:28] *Panzer32* ok, I can see your point in comparing the two
[20:29] *notyoueither* how many on bob?
[20:29] *Trip* small but blood soaked lands
[20:29] *notyoueither* i think it is over 600
[20:29] *notyoueither* looking for aeson's numbers. damn, do we spam!
[20:29] *Panzer32* 685
[20:29] *notyoueither* thought so
[20:30] *Panzer32* yeah, it is large
[20:30] *notyoueither* and nd demands it as their birthright, or something
[20:30] *notyoueither* we cannot live with that
[20:30] *Panzer32* HOWEVER, I do not agree with your point that it will leave ND as the most powerfull
[20:31] *notyoueither* if anything, we were going to come back to the next chat demanding more
[20:31] *notyoueither* and we know where that would lead.
[20:31] *Panzer32* well that won't do much good will it
[20:31] *notyoueither* well, i can see other pov's pw
[20:31] *notyoueither* but, they get land now, close to their cap.
[20:31] *notyoueither* we get it much later
[20:31] *notyoueither* do the math
[20:33] *Panzer32* which land are you reffering to you getting? Legoland?
[20:34] *notyoueither* yes
[20:36] *Panzer32* and by this move that you are taking now, you wich to obtain all of Roleplay, some of Roleplay, or the strategic part of Roleplay?
[20:37] *Panzer32* *wish
[20:37] *notyoueither* the parts imortant to us.
[20:37] *notyoueither* beyond that, it is murky
[20:38] * Aggiegow has joined #gow
[20:39] *notyoueither* allo
[20:39] *Aggiegow* hello nye, long time no see
[20:39] *Panzer32* you wish the cities I am assuming? Unorthodox's proposal is unnaceptable to you?
[20:39] * Panzer32 sets mode: +o Aggiegow
[20:40] *notyoueither* very long time, Aggie. I hope you are well.
[20:40] *notyoueither* Panzer, yes. Seeing ND past the 300 tile mark is clearly unacceptable to GS.
[20:41] *Aggiegow* i am indeed, just enjoying playing with other people than ai. Much more entertaining
[20:41] *notyoueither* ... while we remain so much smaller
[20:42] *Aggiegow* indeed a valid concern
[20:42] *Panzer32* they would only be approx 37 tiles over that... and with more mountains than the rest of us
[20:43] *notyoueither* they would be one third larger than us, and we are very suspicious of their long term agenda
[20:44] * Aeson has joined #GoW
[20:44] *notyoueither* we had no quarrel with them, but they seem to with us.
[20:44] *notyoueither* allo, Aeson
[20:44] *Aeson* hello
[20:44] * Trip sets mode: +o Aeson
[20:45] *Panzer32* I do not see them having a quarrel with you. I see them as wanting territory, as any civ player would
[20:45] *notyoueither* agreed. and they do not want to see us get it.
[20:45] *notyoueither* that is the point
[20:45] *Panzer32* and you do not want to see them get it
[20:46] *notyoueither* not now
[20:46] *notyoueither* we didn't mind before, but we have examined the ramifications of their policies.
[20:46] *notyoueither* they would not even accept us getting 30 or 50 tiles of mountain, desert and plains
[20:47] *Panzer32* I do not believe it is the territory that they do not want you to have as much as it is the ability to invade
[20:47] *notyoueither* far, far from anyting important for them, but very close to things important to us
[20:48] *notyoueither* yes, ability to invade
[20:48] *notyoueither* note we did not ask for land in the north
[20:48] *notyoueither* only land away long way away from GoW and ND caps
[20:49] *Panzer32* brb
[20:50] *notyoueither* ok. i have to go right away, anyway
[20:50] *notyoueither* Aggie, it is nice to see you. Will you be around more?
[20:50] *Aggiegow* yes i will
[20:50] *notyoueither* cool, and too bad for the enemies of GoW.
[20:51] *Aggiegow* i am techincally the commander of our armies
[20:51] *notyoueither*
[20:51] *notyoueither* that gives pause
[20:51] *Aggiegow* hopefully we can work together for our common good
[20:51] *notyoueither* i hope so.
[20:52] *Panzer32* back
[20:52] *notyoueither* ok. is there anything else, i have some other things to tend to.
[20:53] *Panzer32* One more thing I do not understand: you and RP have essentially gifted Santiago to ND
[20:53] *notyoueither* that is possible.
[20:53] *Panzer32* how are you going to achieve anything if they just take YOUR cities?
[20:53] *notyoueither* MZ said earlier that he thought they would bypass it
[20:54] *notyoueither* or might
[20:55] *Panzer32* ok, but I am under the impression that ND will capitalize on taking an undefended city
[20:56] *Panzer32* I have one more thing before we go
[20:56] *notyoueither* if they do, they do.
[20:56] *notyoueither* ok
[20:57] *Panzer32* IF ND were to somehow, miraculously, agree with you having the three cities you wanted, would you accept and settle for them?
[20:58] *notyoueither* not sure. i would have to talk to the team about that.
[20:58] *notyoueither* i doubt it, though. nd has caused massive concern over here
[20:59] *Aggiegow* what could reassure you about nd
[20:59] *notyoueither* them stopping
[20:59] *Panzer32* ok. But I can only do miracles if I am sure. ND will not accept anything besides a certainly answer, and I'm not even sure I can get them to do that.

[notyoueither]

finale.

[21:00] *notyoueither* we undestand, panzer. it is a little like august, 1914
[21:00] *notyoueither* the pieces are in motion
[21:00] *Trip* poor Belgium :P
[21:00] *notyoueither* a few have choices
[21:00] *Panzer32* by the way... just counting tiles for a minute here...
[21:00] *notyoueither* ok
[21:01] *Panzer32* you wanted NM, Barc, and Val?
[21:01] *notyoueither* one moment
[21:02] *notyoueither* i think it went as far south as valencia
[21:02] *notyoueither* there is ivory there.
[21:04] *Panzer32* ok. This would result in ND being downsized quite a portion (41 tiles)
[21:04] *Panzer32* GoW might have to compromise a bit by letting ND have some of its tiles
[21:04] *Aeson* If it helps, there are 1204 land/coast tiles on Bob/Stormia
[21:05] *Aeson* 320 of them on Stormia
[21:05] *notyoueither* thanks aeson
[21:05] *notyoueither* i was looking for those numbers
[21:05] *Panzer32* thanks; I have the land counts
[21:05] *notyoueither* wow. a lot of coast on stormia. cause there is only ~200-205 land
[21:06] *Panzer32* btw, whenever I talk about tiles I mean land tiles
[21:06] * Aeson nods
[21:06] *notyoueither* understood, pw
[21:06] *notyoueither* sorry, panzer32
[21:06] *notyoueither* where i got pw from, i am not sure
[21:07] *Panzer32* now I can try a last ditch attempt at an agreement with ND about you getting those citis
[21:08] *Panzer32* I think it would require you, though, to have little military there.
[21:08] * MasterZen has joined #GoW
[21:08] * Panzer32 sets mode: +o MasterZen
[21:08] *Panzer32* hey MZ
[21:08] *notyoueither* well, good luck.
[21:09] *MasterZen* my my, what a surpring group of visitors
[21:09] *MasterZen* have I missed something?
[21:09] *Aggiegow* maybe and agreement of 300 tiles each with a 300tile dmz.just an idea
[21:09] *notyoueither* as i have said, that would still see us standing by while nd grew a great amount.
[21:09] *notyoueither* mz. could you do me a favour?
[21:10] *Panzer32* MZ, I am going to try to negotiate with ND something that allows GS to obtain the cities they want
[21:10] *MasterZen* kill RP? sure.
[21:10] *notyoueither* heh
[21:10] *MasterZen* ok
[21:10] *MasterZen* what does GS want?
[21:10] *notyoueither* i do not have a log of our chat early this afternoon
[21:10] *notyoueither* could you email it to me?
[21:10] *notyoueither* my work computer did not log
[21:11] * notyoueither is not supposed to chat from work
[21:11] *MasterZen* sure no problem
[21:11] *notyoueither* thank you
[21:11] *MasterZen* so, um, what does GS want?
[21:11] *notyoueither* in fact, poly is the only chat server i can connect to
[21:11] *notyoueither* success, MZ, just as GoW seeks
[21:12] *notyoueither* hopefully, together
[21:12] *Panzer32* NM, Barc, and Val
[21:12] * Aeson dreams of Valencia oranges...
[21:12] *Aeson* among other things
[21:13] *notyoueither* Panzer, there is still the problem of ND's attitude to this point in the game
[21:13] *notyoueither* how are we too expect it will change?
[21:13] *Panzer32* what? To win??
[21:13] *MasterZen* more specific nye,
[21:13] *notyoueither* to fight like lions to keep bob to thermselves
[21:13] *MasterZen* what do you want out of the whole RP war
[21:13] *notyoueither* how do we know they would respect the 3 cities?
[21:13] *MasterZen* well, gifting cities is not fighting like lions, more like fighting like pansies
[21:14] *MasterZen* ND won't want to fight GS if we don't jump in too. And we won't.
[21:14] *notyoueither* how do we know that they will not just settle into their 300+ tiles and ignore lego?
[21:14] *MasterZen* because whoever sets down loses. Simple as that. You two teams have a huge "builder" lead that we don't.
[21:14] *notyoueither* it is hard for us to see being assured by anything short of them stopping
[21:15] *Panzer32* Gathering Storm asks what is impossible to give
[21:15] *MasterZen* all I as is simple: HOW MANY CITIES.
[21:15] *notyoueither* MZ, 300 tiles is 150% of the size of Stormia
[21:15] *notyoueither* and near their cap
[21:15] *Panzer32* nice answer
[21:16] *MasterZen* I'm still waiting for an answer...
[21:17] *notyoueither* it may not be that we need more cities, beyond what Spain has welcomed us too.
[21:17] *Aeson* might be easier on us all if GoW realizes nye can't make a definitive answer at this point
[21:17] *MasterZen* well let me also say something.
[21:17] *Aeson* it hasn't been decided among us
[21:17] *Panzer32* I do realize that
[21:17] *MasterZen* If GoW pushes in
[21:17] *Aggiegow* we are just exploring possibilities
[21:17] *MasterZen* and RP keeps gifting cities...
[21:17] *notyoueither* It may be that we are alarmed by the attitude of a civ that wants us to help carve up a third civ, and get nothing from it for ourselves
[21:17] *MasterZen* 4can you please listen to me for a sec...
[21:18] *notyoueither* yes, mz
[21:18] *MasterZen* I assume that RP will gift you whatever cities gets in our way and they can't defend..right?
[21:18] *notyoueither* not clear.
[21:18] *MasterZen* well, let's just say they do...
[21:18] *notyoueither* the possibility exists
[21:18] *MasterZen* I'm sure they will ask for them back, if they end up gifting a bunch... or at least most of them back.
[21:19] *MasterZen* I mean, seriously, they would not be doing this without some hope of them living in the end.
[21:19] *notyoueither* true
[21:19] *MasterZen* so
[21:19] *notyoueither* they must have hope, or they would do a lux.
[21:19] *MasterZen* whatever agreeement you two might have on handing back cities...
[21:19] *MasterZen* you realize that any agreement is moot when a civ is dead.
[21:19] *notyoueither* true
[21:19] *MasterZen* see what I'm getting at?
[21:19] *notyoueither* yes
[21:20] *MasterZen* all I ask is this:
[21:20] *notyoueither* we will consider that
[21:20] *MasterZen* I told you this morning, we would continue our war against RP
[21:20] *notyoueither* yes, you did
[21:20] *MasterZen* we will, and much more virulently now. Frankly this little stunt they pulled has pissed of more than one of us.
[21:20] *notyoueither* understood
[21:20] *MasterZen* and not against you. I'd have expected any team to accept what they offered, so I don't blame you.
[21:21] *MasterZen* we would have done it too of course :P
[21:21] *notyoueither* heh
[21:21] *MasterZen* we have a NAP between us. We will respect it if you do likewise.
[21:21] *notyoueither* we will respect the nap. we will not attack your units, or cross your cultural borders
[21:21] *MasterZen* and we will not bother the cities they gift to you. We are only interested in kicking RP's ass, now more than ever.
[21:22] *notyoueither* if you catch a city, it is yours
[21:22] *MasterZen* obviously
[21:22] *MasterZen* we're not in the gifting mood.
[21:22] *notyoueither* understood
[21:23] *MasterZen* now about ND
[21:24] *MasterZen* I'm sure they're of the same mindset as us...
[21:24] *MasterZen* but we cannot guarantee anything. We are simply allies in the war against RP, nothing else. If they choose a different course of action, so be it. We can't speak for them. Everything here is simply GoW-GS related.
[21:25] *notyoueither* understood
[21:25] *MasterZen* now one more thing...
[21:25] *notyoueither* we do not hole their attitudes against GoW.
[21:26] *MasterZen* seriously, you want RP in this game or not?
[21:26] *notyoueither* they have welcomed us to Bob. They have granted things we deem we need. We will consider their actions well.
[21:27] *MasterZen* they didn't do it because they're nice. They did it to save their ass.
[21:27] *Panzer32* they do so out of desparation
[21:27] *notyoueither* as i mentioned to UnO, earlier
[21:27] *notyoueither* actually, I asked.
[21:27] *notyoueither* what if RP could be directed against Lego?
[21:28] *Panzer32* do you remember the Brotherhood of Bob?? Roleplay was in that too you know
[21:28] *notyoueither* has that possibility been explored?
[21:28] *MasterZen* RP? ha! those double-dealers would sell their soul to the devil...
[21:28] *MasterZen* as soon as we sent troops to Lego they'd backstab us..
[21:29] *MasterZen* don't you understand this whole was to reduce that uncertainty?
[21:29] *notyoueither* i guess.
[21:29] *MasterZen* *whole war
[21:29] *notyoueither* and now you see our conundrum
[21:29] *notyoueither* help a civ hostile to our expansion, or help a civ who has welcomed us?
[21:29] *MasterZen* NOONE trusts RP. We just did what any team whould have done if they were in our place. In other words, we're doing your dirty work indirectly by killing those backstabbing midgets.
[21:30] *notyoueither* we understand your views.
[21:30] *MasterZen* we would NEVER agree to an invasion of Lego if RP would still exist. NEVER.
[21:30] *notyoueither* well. we will have to consider that well
[21:30] *MasterZen* for purely security reasons. And now more than ever. If they survive, they'll ask for revenge. And they'll ask ANYONE.
[21:31] *notyoueither* i see. we had maybe not considered that fully.
[21:31] *MasterZen* What also puts me a little off is that you didn't consult us at all about this. We informed you about everything in our little war. We trusted you and frankly I don't see how it is mutual.
[21:31] *notyoueither* this is all happening very fast, even if the turns are going slowly
[21:32] *MasterZen* I am more surprised that we hadn't finished any deals, we were discussing. We were trying to convince ND to perhaps yield a little on their demands and perhaps accommodate a solution satisfactory to your team. And now we see 2 GS cities on Bob with no warning. Tell, me , how do you expect we feel?
[21:32] *notyoueither* mz. you trusted us after an nap which saw you open to be able to attack rp. and then in chat, we were to gain nothing from the war, but we were welcome to be a tool.
[21:33] *MasterZen* We never said nothing. Were we not going to have a chat this week?
[21:33] *notyoueither* yes, but we saw nd's attitude
[21:33] *notyoueither* and knew it from ages past
[21:34] *MasterZen* yeah, but didn't you see ours? we were far more willing than they were.
[21:34] *notyoueither* to be honest, many on GS were insulted by the invitation to help kill a civ, but to stay on our nice little camp of an island.
[21:34] *notyoueither* yes, mz. we are discussing the future with you, not with nd
[21:34] *Aggiegow* allegations get us nowhere. Lets see what we can do nowto fix this sitiuation. there MUST be a way
[21:34] *MasterZen* we have "leverage" with ND
[21:35] *notyoueither* agreed, Aggie. just informing of the views of many of the people of GS
[21:35] *Panzer32* On that note.. I would like to say something
[21:35] *MasterZen* I'm not accusing anybody. If anyone is to blame is RP. GS took an opportunity that anyone would have. I do not blame them for it.
[21:35] *notyoueither* o ahead, panzer
[21:36] *Panzer32* ok. We have not discussed all options with ND.
[21:36] *Panzer32* I think that having a 3 way chat was a bad idea, as it brought your conflict to the forefront and we weren't able to accomplish anything
[21:37] *notyoueither* possibly
[21:37] *notyoueither* brb
[21:37] *Panzer32* I am prepared to appeal to ND to try and get an agreement that we were originally talking about, ie GS getting New Madrid, Barcelona, and Valencia
[21:38] *MasterZen* me too
[21:38] *Panzer32* Anything past this deal, I am afraid, will be next to impossible to get from ND.
[21:38] *Aeson* We got that impression too
[21:39] *Aeson* and realize that NM, B, and V are considered by some in GS to be a very lowball offer to begin with
[21:39] *MasterZen* now, I assume that RP offered you an even juicier deal... however, think about it if the existence of a team like RP is beneficial to GS in the long run... first chance they can get they'll sell their soul to Lego instead.
[21:39] *MasterZen* Aeson: we ask for no intervention at all.
[21:39] *MasterZen* you're getting them for free.
[21:39] *notyoueither* we will consider your requests
[21:40] *Panzer32* The problem is, that GS is unsure of what it can compromise on. You know what you idealy want, which is for ND to be crushed. Unfortunatly, this is impossible, as is the idea of ND stopping.
[21:40] *MasterZen* I think it's hard for GS to know just what type of team RP is. If we're doing this is beacuse we don't trust them AT ALL.
[21:40] *MasterZen* nye, look at it this way:
[21:40] *Panzer32* yes, I imagine they would be for free
[21:40] *MasterZen* don't you think out of the possible 3 combinations of alliances in Bob, ND-GoW looks to be the most unreasonable. Have you asked yourself why?
[21:40] *Panzer32* Therefore, It is hard for me to interceed in any way with ND.
[21:40] *Panzer32* I'm done for now
[21:41] *notyoueither* ok
[21:41] *MasterZen* I mean, splitting the continent, etc., the fear of either of us backstabbing each other... etc
[21:41] *MasterZen* so, do you know why two teams like us allied?
[21:41] *notyoueither* we understand your hatred for rp, mz
[21:41] *MasterZen* because the only thing we share is distrust over RP.
[21:41] *MasterZen* neither of us feels safe with them existing.
[21:41] *notyoueither* our problem is with nd growing fat and being zenophobes
[21:42] *MasterZen* and it would be folly for GS to think that RP is going to cozy up to you in the long run. Trust me.
[21:42] *MasterZen* I'm a Zenophobe :P
[21:42] *notyoueither* hehe
[21:42] *Panzer32* its Xenophobe... Zenophobe is a play on MZ's name
[21:43] *notyoueither* but we did not blame gow for the position re gs cities on bob
[21:43] *MasterZen* but I say it so much it's probably catching
[21:43] *notyoueither* heh, thanks panzer
[21:43] *notyoueither* at any rate. i must go.
[21:44] *MasterZen* look, nye, it's hard to imagine ND doing anything in the future that differs significantly from GoW's foreign policy.
[21:44] *MasterZen* unless it comes to a full backstab from them. Which is also likely
[21:44] *notyoueither* we will consider that, mz
[21:44] *MasterZen* in other words, what I'm saying is we have leverage with them. If you want to get a deal done with them, consider us first and we can talk to them.
[21:44] *MasterZen* and if you want a deal done with Bob, we are all ears.
[21:45] *Panzer32* What MZ is fact, dudes
[21:45] *MasterZen* we just want to slaughter RP like the pigs they are.
[21:45] *notyoueither* we understand
[21:45] *notyoueither* i really have to go
[21:45] *MasterZen* ok
[21:45] *Aggiegow* bye
[21:45] *MasterZen* I have just one last thing to say but I'll catch you later tonight
[21:46] *notyoueither* ok
[21:46] *Panzer32* ok, I guess I should go too
[21:46] *MasterZen* cya guys
[21:46] *notyoueither* by
[21:46] *notyoueither* mz, you had one last thing to say?
[21:47] *MasterZen* it might take a while though...
[21:47] *MasterZen* that's why I said I'll catch you later tonight
[21:47] *notyoueither* oh. ok
[21:47] *notyoueither* bye
Session Close: Mon Jul 21 21:47:35 2003

[notyoueither]

Chat with GoW.

Session Start: Tue Jul 22 22:56:48 2003
Session Ident: MasterZen
[22:56] Session Ident: MasterZen (Master@dup-200-66-232-2.prodigy.net.mx)
[22:56] *MasterZen* yo, have a moment?
[22:56] *notyoueit* hi. in a sec
[22:57] *MasterZen* sure
[22:59] *notyoueit* go ahead, mz
[22:59] *notyoueit* i am sorry i missed panzer
[22:59] *notyoueit* please give him my apologiers
[23:00] *MasterZen* ah don't worry
[23:00] *MasterZen* he's an early sleeper, unlike us vampires :P
[23:00] *notyoueit* yes, but he said something in private window that i missed. :/
[23:00] *MasterZen* ah, well the issue is quite simple
[23:00] *notyoueit* i was zoomed into the isdg chat
[23:01] *MasterZen* it's regarding Bilbao
[23:01] *notyoueit* ok
[23:01] *MasterZen* we would like GS's permission to deploy our Rider force in the mountain 4 of Bilbao not this but the next turn. The stack would remain for that turn only. The stack will not attack Bilbao in any way.
[23:02] *notyoueit* hmmm
[23:02] *notyoueit* 4 of bilbao?
[23:02] *MasterZen* we are respecting the sovereignty of Bilbao but would consider it a huge detriment to our war effort should this request be denied.
[23:03] *MasterZen* yes, 4
[23:03] *MasterZen* for one turn only, 10 AD.
[23:04] *notyoueit* and where from there? through to the other side?
[23:04] *MasterZen* all we can say is that after 10 AD the stack will no longer be within the cultural border of Bilbao
[23:05] *notyoueit* that would mean you move in this turn for you?
[23:05] *notyoueit* so they are there for our 10ad?
[23:06] *MasterZen* no, not this turn, this is 10 BC, we'd assemble our forces this turn, and move in the next
[23:06] *notyoueit* oh, so we have time to consider this
[23:06] *MasterZen* rather, you'd see them in your 30 AD turn i guess..
[23:06] *notyoueit* ok. understood
[23:07] *MasterZen* we have the save right now, it is not in position this turn
[23:07] *MasterZen* we'd move it next turn 10 AD, you'd see the stack 30 AD and we'd move it out in our 30 AD
[23:07] *notyoueit* well, you have rifers adjacent this turn, that is why i ask
[23:07] *MasterZen* correct but we're bringing more in. Where our riders are right now is where we'd assembe and move south
[23:08] *notyoueit* ok. i will take this back and see if the rest agree.
[23:08] *MasterZen* good.
[23:08] *notyoueit* is there anything else?
[23:08] *MasterZen* nope
[23:08] *MasterZen* personally I don't see how this is any inconvenience...
[23:09] *MasterZen* but I leave it to your team to decide
[23:11] *notyoueit* ok
[23:12] *MasterZen* cool
Session Close: Wed Jul 23 00:00:00 2003

[notyoueither]

Received from UnO. 9:03 this morning, my time.

News from GoW
Greetings zeit, nye,

Im afraid that I have some unfortunate news. My home computer is suffering from some malady or another, and it has cost me all internet access for some time. I will be unable to chat until such things are fixed, however.

In the meantime please talk to Master Zen or Panzer32 if you need to communicate through chat.

I wanted to express that our initial reaction was mostly a knee-jerk due to several things. However, the presence of the signed NAP has sure eased any tensions that existed. I am sure you understand how much worse the situation appeared without such a contract signed.

It is our understanding that ND has declared war and taken Santiago despite our resistance to such an idea. While we can understand how and why they came to that decision, our intention is to remain neutral during whatever future conflicts arise between ND and GS. It is really our only path as we have NAP's both ways.

This being said, we wish to somehow come to an arrangement that would be mutually beneficial to both our teams. I don't see that our respective positions need to hamper such a thing from comming to pass at present.

I have several ideas, and am polling our forum at present to get a feel on how the team will react. That being said, I must ask, is GS devoted to keeping RP in the game? What are your goals in this conflict? Perhaps there is a solution to be had by concluding our current contract as swiftly as possible, allowing us to work on a different one, perhaps?

Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx

[notyoueither]

Brief chat with MZ.

Session Start: Fri Jul 25 00:15:43 2003
Session Ident: MasterZen
[00:15] Session Ident: MasterZen (Master@dup-200-66-232-47.prodigy.net.mx)
[00:15] *MasterZen* you there?
[00:15] *nye* for a short bit yet
[00:16] *MasterZen* any answer on the Bilbao issue?
[00:17] *nye* unfortunately, me must deny permission to cross the lands near Bilbao
[00:17] *nye* btw, Toledo is not in GS hands as well.
[00:18] *nye* *now
[00:18] *MasterZen* may I ask a reason for the denial? It's not a big a deal
[00:18] *nye* well, it certainly would be unhelpful to the people who have welcomed us to Bob
[00:18] *nye* and we are at war with neiter of you
[00:19] *MasterZen* well I'll tell you one thing, you guys are not getting many points with GoW..
[00:19] *nye* we understand. that is unfortunate
[00:20] *MasterZen* unfortunate decisions are never lamented when done on purpose
[00:21] *nye* true. what is unfortunate is the situation between you and rp, that we thrust in the middle of.
[00:24] *MasterZen* what is more unfortunately is that I see no need in trusting GS from now on, that is a personal opinion. Especially considering you were the only team we told what we were doing...
[00:27] *nye* hmmm. that is unfortunate.
[00:28] *nye* i must excuse myself. time to hit the sack very soon
[00:28] *MasterZen* ok, se you later
[00:28] *nye* ok
Session Close: Fri Jul 25 00:28:47 2003

[notyoueither]

Received from UnO.

New Ambassador

Honorable zeit, nye,

It is with both sadness and pleasure that I announce that the Glory of War has named a new ambassador to Gathering Storm.

I have enjoyed our time working together, but am afaid my own schedule can no longer allow it. Both of you have made negotiations with Gathering Storm a pleasant experience, and I hope to be able to work with each of you in the future.

From this time forward, though. GhengisFarb will be taking over as your ambassador. I am sure that this will only serve to improve our relations further as Ghengis will be able to devote the time neccessary to ensure an active and healthy relation will continue to grow between our teams.

Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx

[notyoueither]

Sent to UnO, MZ, GF.

Greetings

re Your request to cross the territory of Bilbao.

We regret that we must deny permission for any forces to cross our territory, which has recently been enlarged to include Toledo. We are at war with neither RP nor GoW. We do not wish to advantage either side through access to that land.


re UnOrthOdOx's memo of July 23.

There is much to think on. He mentions concluding your current contract swiftly and embarking on a new one. Is this a serious possibility? What is required to conclude your contract?

Our intentions re RP are not fully concrete as of yet. We are inclined to look favourably on a civ who has welcomed us to Bob. As of this point, our goals in the conflict would be to finish what other nations start.

Respectfully

nye

cc GhengisFarb, Master Zen, UnOrthOdOx

[notyoueither]

This chat occured last night in the ISDG channel immediately after I informed MZ about our decision re access to territory and that Toledo was in our hands. When I was done, I signed off.

Arnelos emailed me the log.

Chat in the Apolyton ISDG main chanel (Thursday, July 24th):

- NYE signed off... *immediately* afterward...

MasterZen> Don't gift more cities to GS!!!
MasterZen> For the love of god!!!
Arnelos>
Arnelos> If you guys go away, we won't have a reason to gift any more cities to GS
MasterZen> it's not the gifting... it to WHOM!
MasterZen> give them to Lego or to Vox (or tu us... :P)
MasterZen> you are handing GS the game in a silver platter...
Arnelos> yes, and my point is that if you go away, we won't need to .... simple to me
Arnelos> and if you'd like to prevent us from doing so, you can always leave
MasterZen> ok, then keep doing it, and survive the next couple of months having to suffer from GS-member's even igher egos and cockiness...
Togas> better than GoW
Arnelos> my thoughts exactly
MasterZen> ha, we're not going to win... be serious
MasterZen> it's going to be Lego vs GS
Arnelos> and if it is?
Arnelos> and what about ND?
MasterZen> if GS gets a major presence on Bob, they'll win...
Togas> I'm surprised this never occured to any of you before you attacked us.
MasterZen> ND can't win the game either, neither of us, think about it, will GS stand for a 1-nation Bob?
MasterZen> Togas: we're playing for FUN :P
Togas> OHhhh
Togas> and we're not?
Arnelos> MZ - you were the one who attacked US All I'm telling you is that should you decide to not attack and just go away, we'll no longer have any incentive to be gifting cities to GS
MasterZen> plus, YOU did have a chance of winning with half the continent...
Togas> SURE we did
Togas> all those luxuries are a bullseye painted on our chest.
Togas> if it wasn't ND invading, it would have been GS.
MasterZen> We would have never allowed that... Spain is OURS :P
MasterZen> we would have fought GS then backstabbed you :P (LoL)
MasterZen> no but seriously, GoW will respect gifted cities... hopefully you will give Lego next time... :P
Togas> We CANNOT give to Lego, didn't you listen last time?
MasterZen> we are *****ing only because we don't want GS to win!!!
Togas> Lego REFUSED to take our cities
Togas> if you don't want GS to win, do something about it.
MasterZen> oh, we will...
Togas> sure you will
MasterZen> well maybe Lego has changed their mind...
Togas> well maybe they ought to TELL US THAT.
Togas> maybe GoW doesn't enjoy how the tables are turning. What I don't enjoy is how GoW won't even consider making an offer to us to end this war before it begins. You mock us and then you cry to us when we do the logical thing that you SHOULD have considered we'd do.
MasterZen> anyway, back to what I was saying, its not that I'm *****ing over the logical thing to do, it's that RP is practically deciding the winner of the PTWDG by what it's doing.
Arnelos> no... GoW did that
Arnelos> you guys should have known
MasterZen> we honestly had no idea you would do that
MasterZen> we though you were much stronger
Togas> you didn't?
Togas> what did you think we'd do??
MasterZen> fight it out
MasterZen> at least at first
Togas> against BOTH of you?
MasterZen> yep
Togas> we'd need 2x the army we have
MasterZen> the powergraph shows you stronger. The F3 screen says we're equal
Arnelos> equal to each of you ALONE, yes
MasterZen> defenders are underrated in the F3 screen, you could have had a plethora of pikes and they'be counted less than our Riders
Togas> MZ, are you high? You guys intentionally didn't give us Civ, have your UU, and have double the forces as us
Togas> *chiv
MasterZen> Togas: not a few turns back we were weak to you. Imagine our surprise when we mass-upgraded our first wave and realized we were not stronger than you.
Togas> booo hooo
Togas> are you seriously saying that GoW thought they were fighting an enemy who was stronger?
BigFree> MZ: The power graph in Civ 3 only gives about 10% to units; Trip confirmed this, it gives mostly to cities and population.
Arnelos> MZ... as I said, if GS winning the game means THAT much to you, withdraw.
MasterZen> oh well... let's see what happens...
Togas> You guys have no excuses.
Togas> we gave you every chance and BEGGED you to reconsider
MasterZen> this turn will probably be the most important in the entire demogame...
BigFree> why is that
MasterZen> you'll see...
BigFree> ok
Arnelos> true... you guys already have the save
Arnelos> well, you and ND
MasterZen> ND has it
Arnelos> if it's what I've been saying was going to happen for at least a month now, I'll laugh
MasterZen> what?
Arnelos> nothing
MasterZen> say it!! :P
Arnelos> I'll tell you after it happens
MasterZen> if it happens...
Arnelos> precisely
BigFree> GoW backstabbing ND! :maybe:
BigFree> Doh, was that a sevret?
Arnelos> well, we've been HOPING for that
MasterZen> that ain't gonna happen, not until RP is gone at least...
MasterZen> but keep your hopes up... perhaps they'll backstab us :
MasterZen> (not likely either as we are actually stronger than they are...)
Togas> MZ, so long as your team has the attitude that RP must be destroyed, this game is over.
Arnelos> bingo
Togas> you can't even consider negotiations with us.
MasterZen> knowing you guys, if we let you live, you'll ally with GS to take us out. That's the reason why.
Togas> is it?
MasterZen> yep.
Togas> why this bull**** "knowing you guys?" What did we ever do to you? Sign a MPP with you? Ask you to ally with us?
MasterZen> plus, you might convince me, you won't convince the rest, and you sure as hell won't convince ND.
Togas> what did you do? Oh, yeah, attack us.
MasterZen> you keep forgetting I'm the dove...
Arnelos> don't play good cop, we know better ;p
Togas> sure you are
Togas> you're Mr Evil Plan
MasterZen> Evil Plans can have different targets...
MasterZen> If I had been on GoW from the start perhaps things would have been different.
Togas> those are just lame excuses.
Arnelos> heh... that's what Unortho said
MasterZen> then again perhaps if I had we'd hate each other by now...
Arnelos> (more or less)
MasterZen> so I guess it all worked out for the best
BigFree> LOL
BigFree> Ok, enough is enough
BigFree> just lets play the game

[zeit]

From UnO, re: new ambassador

Honorable zeit, nye,

It is with both sadness and pleasure that I announce that the Glory of War has named a new ambassador to Gathering Storm.

I have enjoyed our time working together, but am afaid my own schedule can no longer allow it. Both of you have made negotiations with Gathering Storm a pleasant experience, and I hope to be able to work with each of you in the future.

From this time forward, though. GhengisFarb will be taking over as your ambassador. I am sure that this will only serve to improve our relations further as Ghengis will be able to devote the time neccessary to ensure an active and healthy relation will continue to grow between our teams.

Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx

[notyoueither]

Received from GhengisFarb.

Disappointed

GS:

It is with great concern that I write to you today. The Glory of War considers the Gathering Storm a kindred spirit in team beliefs but your actions of late have undermined that belief.

We regret that we must deny permission for any forces to cross our territory, which has recently been enlarged to include Toledo. We are at war with neither RP nor GoW. We do not wish to advantage either side through access to that land.

Our intentions re RP are not fully concrete as of yet. We are inclined to look favourably on a civ who has welcomed us to Bob. As of this point, our goals in the conflict would be to finish what other nations start.

Respectfully

nye

cc GhengisFarb, Master Zen, UnOrthOdOx

Your team has purposely accepted Roleplay cities for THE SOLE PURPOSE of preventing our capture of them. This violates the spirit and intent and virtually violates the specific wording of the following document:

This contract is a declaration of a Non Aggression Pact between Gathering Storm and Glory of War. Neither team will engage in hostile activity against the other team for the duration of the contract.

The contract becomes effective on turn 126, 50 BC and will remain in effect for a duration of 30 turns, cancelling after turn 156, 400 AD.

The contract is considered Top Secret and will be treated as such by both teams and by their members. No memeber of either team is allowed to discuss the existence, or details, of the contract with anyone who is not a member of either Gathering Storm or Glory of War.

Signed:
Glory of War Team

Ratified:
Gathering Storm

By denying us the right to continue on our campaign you ARE WAGING WAR AGAINST US. Both our teams know this is being done to prevent the Glory of War from capturing the cities of the enemy. We accepted Bibao as your team was merely taking an opportunistic moment but any more than that is going beyond opportunistic and becoming willful agressiveness against a NAP partner.

If you accept Toledo or any other city beyond Bilbao it may be viewed as an act of war and violation of the before ratified NAP. We do not wish war with GS, we both need to be strong for the upcoming wars but we will defend our sovereign rights to exist and fight our enemies. Sovereign rights you are attempting to deny us.

If we had accepted Eliopolis as a gift from Vox before you took it, how would you have felt?

GhengisFarb, Ambassador of GoW.

[notyoueither]

Sent to GoW

The Situation

In reply to the message from GhengisFarb, entitled 'Disappointed'

Greetings, Glorious Warriors,

We of Gathering Storm have no desire to fight your great nation, but we must maintain our sovereignty. One key aspect of sovereignty is the power to enter into mutually beneficial agreements with other nations, and your demands for veto power over our agreements with Spain are a violation of our sovereignty.

The cities we obtained from Spain are not merely useless baggage with no value other than getting in your way. They are already able to contribute to our nation, and can someday contribute far more with courthouses and the proper tile improvements in place. Corruption in those cities is certainly a problem, but by no means an insurmountable one. Further, with a territory expansion, Toledo can provide us with a source of silks within our own territory.

We recognize that our obtaining those cities through diplomatic means before you could annex them militarily has caused you a certain amount of inconvenience. But the opportunity we were presented with to obtain land diplomatically instead of having to fight for it was too good to pass up. Surely you can recognize that a non-aggression pact is not a “won’t take advantage of any opportunity that the other would find inconvenient” pact. Further, GoW did not shed a single drop of blood in an effort to take those cities (indeed, you are not even at war with RP in-game yet), so it is not as if we are depriving you of prizes of an ongoing battle.

All we are really guilty of is that our diplomats moved faster than your Riders in obtaining land that both of us regard as desirable in spite of its high corruption levels. We have not taken or threatened anything that belongs to you. We have not taken or threatened anything you had any legitimate claim on beyond the mere fact that you wanted to take it in the near future.

In closing, we would like to make it clear once again that a non-aggression pact is not a right of passage agreement. Your moving through our cities to attack Roleplay is little different from if we moved through your lands to attack Neu Demogyptica from the north, a movement that surely would require more than a mere non-aggression pact to justify. Further, Gathering Storm has a long-standing policy of viewing unauthorized movement of foreign military forces into our territory as an act of aggression against us, as the fate of Mad King Donegeal’s expedition into our lands can surely attest. Our policy of not allowing foreign soldiers into our lands (especially while we are at war) is not merely something we made up on the spot to get in your way. We are willing to overlook your forces’ current presence in our territory, but must insist that they return the way they came.

Please let us know whether you intend to honor our non-aggression pact or not so we can make our plans accordingly.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm

cc GhengisFarb, Master Zen, UnOrthOdOx