DIPLO: Glory of War contact LOG

[notyoueither]

Chat with GoW: Prelude

Session Start: Sat Jun 21 21:22:37 2003
Session Ident: UnOrthOdOx
[21:22] Session Ident: UnOrthOdOx (~unorthodo@ACC2CA2A.ipt.aol.com)
[21:22] {UnOrthOdOx> Hello
[21:22] {notyoueither> what's up? all well in GoW?
[21:23] {UnOrthOdOx> It's chaotic.
[21:23] {notyoueither> hmmm. you live in interesting times
[21:23] {UnOrthOdOx> I need to know if there has been discussion on a chat time within GS.
[21:24] {notyoueither> ahh. that is mostly up to zeit and you. the rest of us would tag along as able
[21:24] {UnOrthOdOx> ok.
[21:25] {UnOrthOdOx> Hope things are well with you guys.
[21:25] {notyoueither> what are the topics for chat, from GoW's side?
[21:25] {UnOrthOdOx> We are a bit confused with some things that we want to cover, and hopefully finalize all the deals as much as possible for a chat.
[21:25] {notyoueither> btw, i am somewhat official now. i am assisting mss.
[21:26] {UnOrthOdOx> Oh good...MSS is the cheif FAM, right?
[21:26] {notyoueither> perhaps i can help now
[21:26] {UnOrthOdOx> Mind if we get MZ if we go semi-official?
[21:27] {UnOrthOdOx> Isn't GT on GS as well?
[21:27] {notyoueither> yes, he is the... wait a moment... Minister of Diplomatic Affairs
[21:27] {notyoueither> I am the... Minister of Foreign Affairs
[21:27] {notyoueither> GT? No.
[21:27] {UnOrthOdOx> .ok...
[21:28] {notyoueither> GeneralTacitus?
[21:28] {UnOrthOdOx> Yeah, not looking at my list ATM...
[21:28] {notyoueither> grab mz. np
[21:28] {UnOrthOdOx> Join #GoW
Session Close: Sat Jun 21 23:45:13 2003

[notyoueither]

Session Start: Sat Jun 21 21:29:03 2003
Session Ident: #GoW
[21:29] * Now talking in #GoW
[21:29] * Topic is 'The Glory Of Chat'
[21:29] * Set by MasterZen on Fri May 30 15:56:10
[21:29] {notyoueither> hello
[21:29] {UnOrthOdOx> Hi.
[21:29] {UnOrthOdOx> Good to see you.
[21:29] {notyoueither> good to be here
[21:29] {MasterZen> welcome to our little neck of the woods
[21:29] {UnOrthOdOx> I was trying to meet GF for some RoN action, but he is having connection troubles, nice to be productive anyway...
[21:30] {notyoueither> always good to be productive.
[21:30] {UnOrthOdOx> Perhaps you can clear some confusion that we have?
[21:30] {notyoueither> would love to, if i can
[21:30] {MasterZen> we've been getting mixed responses from your team
[21:30] {notyoueither> understood.
[21:31] {UnOrthOdOx> We are utterly confused with the lack of interest in a non-aggression pact...ie, a pact where we both promise not to declare war...
[21:31] {UnOrthOdOx> Is this not an option?
[21:31] {MasterZen> which strikes us all the more strange since Shiber and zeit have constantly told us that you had no intentions on Bob
[21:32] {notyoueither> ahhh. well, we have a feeling that signing an nap with one power of bob, could destabilize bob
[21:32] {UnOrthOdOx> Why exactly?
[21:32] {UnOrthOdOx> Who says the others need to know?
[21:32] {MasterZen> unless it is made public...
[21:32] {MasterZen> it's not an alliance or a mutial-protection pact... it's just a NAP
[21:33] {notyoueither> the thinking goes that the other 2 powers might get uptight. they may feel isolated.
[21:33] {UnOrthOdOx> From my POV, it seemse that it is in your best interest to sign with EVERYONE if you indeed wish to be builders.
[21:33] {MasterZen> if it's private they won't
[21:33] {notyoueither> that might precipitate action, when action is not deisred
[21:34] {notyoueither> UnOrthO, if we signed with everyone, we would miss out on the fun, should any commence. No?
[21:34] {MasterZen> so then you do have intentions
[21:34] {notyoueither> no
[21:34] {UnOrthOdOx> So you are not discounting POSSIBLE actions?
[21:34] {notyoueither> zeit and shiber have been truthful. we have no plans to go to bob
[21:35] {UnOrthOdOx> At present.
[21:35] {MasterZen> so if you don't have intentions, why are you considering joining in on the "fun"?
[21:35] {UnOrthOdOx> and for the record, that is not an answer to the question.
[21:36] {notyoueither> well, we would be fools to sit to one side if matters having a major impact on us were taking place
[21:36] {notyoueither> and we were to do nothing
[21:36] {MasterZen> how exactly does something in our continent impact you?
[21:36] {UnOrthOdOx> MZ, please, we both know the answer there...
[21:36] {UnOrthOdOx> This IS civ after all.
[21:36] {notyoueither> true
[21:36] {UnOrthOdOx> They don't want a superpower.
[21:36] {MasterZen> of course, but this is diplomacy
[21:37] {UnOrthOdOx> Perhaps we should ask, then, what would it take for you to join in?
[21:37] {notyoueither> oh. good question.
[21:38] {UnOrthOdOx> And the one I personally am confused on...
[21:38] {MasterZen> or join out? (depending on which side you end up thinking on joining)
[21:38] {notyoueither> probably our appraisal that our interests were at stake to a large degree.
[21:38] {notyoueither> that would get us examining scenarios
[21:39] {MasterZen> any scenario you can picture has one of us 3 bobians getting destroyed
[21:39] {UnOrthOdOx> Would Gathering Storm ever break a 20-turn trade agreement by being the agressors?
[21:39] {notyoueither> we do not wish that
[21:39] * Hot_Enamel has joined #GoW
[21:40] {UnOrthOdOx> hey He.
[21:40] {UnOrthOdOx> HE
[21:40] {notyoueither> hi
[21:40] {Hot_Enamel> Hi
[21:40] {MasterZen> hey
[21:40] * MasterZen sets mode: +o Hot_Enamel
[21:40] {Hot_Enamel> Just lurking ..
[21:40] {notyoueither> Good question, UnorthO. We have not discussed that. It would go against our nature, though.
[21:41] {notyoueither> do you mind if i dispense with the caps. i find the shift key a bother
[21:41] {UnOrthOdOx> Not at all.
[21:41] {MasterZen> np
[21:41] {notyoueither> thank you
[21:41] {UnOrthOdOx> Im just used to typing...stories and all.
[21:42] {notyoueither> no doubt
[21:42] {UnOrthOdOx> 80 WPM...
[21:42] {MasterZen> I'm just used to arguing
[21:42] {notyoueither> on chicken back?
[21:42] {notyoueither>
[21:43] {UnOrthOdOx> Would you then be more likely to join on the side of the one receiving the aggression?
[21:44] {UnOrthOdOx> In other words.
[21:44] {MasterZen> help the underdog..
[21:44] {UnOrthOdOx> Or pile on to prevent a monopoly of Bob.
[21:44] {notyoueither> no. gs would not make decesions based on being paladins
[21:45] {MasterZen> in other words then you would value a long-term relationship as a basis on which to support?
[21:45] {UnOrthOdOx> Dear god, I hate lawfull good...
[21:45] {MasterZen> hahah... me too
[21:45] {UnOrthOdOx> Im more a Neutral-neutral myself.
[21:45] {notyoueither> we would be very unlikely to pile on as well, unless there were compelling reasons
[21:46] {MasterZen> sound's to me you'd be better off neutral
[21:46] {notyoueither> that is the path we are sterring vis-a-vis bob
[21:46] {notyoueither> *stearing
[21:47] {UnOrthOdOx> Do you have any long term plans yet?
[21:47] {notyoueither> may i ask, is GoW concerened that you are a target of an attack?
[21:48] {UnOrthOdOx> Yes we are.
[21:48] {UnOrthOdOx> We hope we are not, but must plan for the worst.
[21:49] {UnOrthOdOx> Which, without a NAP would include GS.
[21:49] {notyoueither> ahhh. i feel safe in assuring you that attacking GoW is about the least likely thing for us to do.
[21:49] {UnOrthOdOx> May I ask something completely off topic?
[21:49] {notyoueither> sure
[21:49] {UnOrthOdOx> Do you guys have long-term plans?
[21:50] {notyoueither> yes, as far as they can be made in an mp mad house
[21:50] {UnOrthOdOx> and are you opposed to making them together, perhaps?
[21:50] {UnOrthOdOx> Looking at this game, GS will need to go a conquering eventually.
[21:51] {UnOrthOdOx> Unless, of course you are shooting for a diplo win.
[21:51] {notyoueither> possibly. the same can be said of some other teams
[21:51] {UnOrthOdOx> Yes, of course.
[21:51] {notyoueither> or, we could cut the crap and just fess up that conquest is part of this game.
[21:51] {MasterZen> you know, if only 3 civs survive and Vox is one of them, a diplo victory is actually feasable...
[21:52] {UnOrthOdOx> Everyone, almost, needs to.
[21:52] {notyoueither> ahem. did i say that?
[21:52] {UnOrthOdOx> Yes, let's go ahead and cut the crap out.
[21:52] {notyoueither> go ahead
[21:53] {UnOrthOdOx> If there is a conflict on Bob, and we end up NOT being the target, is there a team you would prefer us to back? so to speak?
[21:53] {UnOrthOdOx> Also, in the future, do you guys have your eye on anywhere in particular?
[21:54] {UnOrthOdOx> Nevermind... you likely need a map first.
[21:55] {notyoueither> very good, and direct questions
[21:55] {UnOrthOdOx> Hey, that's me.
[21:55] {UnOrthOdOx> Tact is no my forte
[21:55] {MasterZen> neither is mine
[21:55] {MasterZen> but nye already knows that
[21:55] {notyoueither> i do not need a map to know who will win this game if left unmolested. we have done a tile count and come up extremely short.
[21:55] {UnOrthOdOx> Which is why I don't even try MZ...
[21:56] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok...can you say?
[21:56] {notyoueither> what that means is, there are a certain number of land tiles to be expected in a game with these settings.
[21:56] {notyoueither> we cannot see a huge number of them, even after seeing all of bob
[21:57] {notyoueither> we did not need to float past lego major and minor to know that
[21:57] {UnOrthOdOx> So we are both then agreed that eventually Lego will become the dominating team if left unchecked?
[21:57] {notyoueither> yes
[21:58] {notyoueither> that is clear
[21:58] {UnOrthOdOx> We can also agree how difficult a naval assault can be as well?
[21:58] {notyoueither> doubly clear
[21:58] {notyoueither> forget it after rr's
[21:58] {MasterZen> and should we wait till RR it will be well near impossible
[21:59] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok, we are all together then.
[21:59] {UnOrthOdOx> Would you be opposed to planning that far ahead together?
[21:59] {notyoueither> it seems we are thinking along parallel paths
[21:59] {UnOrthOdOx> And, what is the nature of the Voxodus, if we can ask?
[21:59] {notyoueither> we would welcome the possibility of longer term relations
[22:00] {UnOrthOdOx> Basically, is Vox going to Lego?
[22:00] {notyoueither> yes
[22:00] {notyoueither> we believe so
[22:00] {UnOrthOdOx> Are they willing to become a staging point in the future? or was that not a part of the deal?
[22:00] {notyoueither> it is not said in so many words, but it seems clear. unless rp is in the weeds
[22:01] {notyoueither> no future deals. they leave and they live. we help them leave, in planning and execution
[22:01] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok. It seemed like a decent idea to have them as a staging area as well...
[22:01] {MasterZen> it's still viable...
[22:01] {UnOrthOdOx> Though, trust would be a problem there.
[22:02] {UnOrthOdOx> possibly.
[22:02] {notyoueither> that would be a very solid idea, if they would agree.
[22:02] {MasterZen> just give them some time
[22:02] {MasterZen> to "re-settle"
[22:03] {notyoueither> there is mention of two distinct legos. linked by a narrow strip
[22:03] {UnOrthOdOx> Is there any other teams you are close enough to to also bring in on this?
[22:03] {UnOrthOdOx> Surely we can all see the logic.
[22:03] {notyoueither> well, all of bob, providing you didn't rip each other to pieces first
[22:04] {UnOrthOdOx> Indeed.
[22:04] {Hot_Enamel> Re: two distict Legos - Our galley confirms this
[22:05] {notyoueither> easy then for lego to seal off?
[22:06] {notyoueither> better than a beach head though?
[22:06] {MasterZen> in principle we're all for this, however, the situation on Bob, should we be the ones on the recieving end will make it very unlikely we can participate meaningfully if we survive. However, should we be on the "winning" side, yould you consider joining with the winners for this end?
[22:07] {UnOrthOdOx> There are basically two options on Bob.
[22:07] {Hot_Enamel> Connected by 1 tile .. easily defended just like Eliopolis
[22:08] {UnOrthOdOx> RP has plenty of land south. They decide to join ND and attack north and split N/S
[22:08] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok, three options.
[22:08] {MasterZen> that is our personal nightmare
[22:08] {UnOrthOdOx> We join RP and attack ND splitting N/S...
[22:08] {notyoueither> i can see
[22:08] {UnOrthOdOx> Or we join ND and split it screwy fashioned.
[22:09] {UnOrthOdOx> I can assure you RP has no interest in the second option.
[22:09] {MasterZen> "screwy"... haha
[22:09] {MasterZen> alhtough they are jittery about getting attacked by ND
[22:09] {UnOrthOdOx> Or that is a front from Togas.
[22:09] {MasterZen> as are we
[22:09] {notyoueither> hmmm. it is as we have calculated.
[22:10] {UnOrthOdOx> RP can also stay put and eventually dominate Bob.
[22:10] {notyoueither> that is part of our calculation.
[22:11] {notyoueither> so that leaves you and nd v them, or them and nd v you
[22:11] {MasterZen> look, because of our land and our position, it will be impossible for us to stay neutral
[22:11] {notyoueither> very clear
[22:11] {MasterZen> we will either get thrashed by them because they think we are targets
[22:12] {UnOrthOdOx> Or ND going nuts. They are a bit thinking all of Apolyton is against them, who can blame them?
[22:12] {MasterZen> or we must seek to join the likely victory, or the one which we get most benefits of allying with
[22:12] {MasterZen> *victor
[22:13] {notyoueither> i would imagine you have sounded out rp and nd thoroughly in these matters
[22:13] {MasterZen> Should an ND-RP war break out, we will take sides
[22:13] {UnOrthOdOx> "Sounded out" Togas? LOL
[22:13] {MasterZen> hahaha
[22:13] {notyoueither> hehe. loud?
[22:13] {MasterZen> I try though...
[22:14] {MasterZen> but you know Togas...
[22:14] {MasterZen> RP has been rather quiet lately
[22:14] {UnOrthOdOx> I got to get him in on a poker game.
[22:15] {notyoueither> rl poker?
[22:15] {UnOrthOdOx> Sure.
[22:15] {UnOrthOdOx> Im in Cali often enough...
[22:15] {notyoueither> oh. you have to, not you have
[22:16] {notyoueither> brb
[22:16] {UnOrthOdOx> MZ, are you logging?
[22:16] {MasterZen> yes
[22:16] {UnOrthOdOx> Ok, I gtg, actually.
[22:16] {UnOrthOdOx> I'll leave it in your hands from here then.
[22:16] {MasterZen> np
[22:16] {MasterZen>
[22:16] * UnOrthOdOx has left #GoW
[22:17] {MasterZen> i'd still like to talk a little more if that's no problem...
[22:17] {notyoueither> back
[22:17] {notyoueither> which side of an nd-rp war would gow favour, if i may ask?
[22:18] {MasterZen> good question
[22:18] {MasterZen> on the one hand,
[22:19] {MasterZen> we'd like to have ND as our ally for "neighborly" reasons
[22:19] {MasterZen> however, we greatly fear that ND would eventually backstab us
[22:19] {MasterZen> especially since we'd have to split the continent in a "screwey" fashion
[22:20] {MasterZen> on the other hand,
[22:20] {MasterZen> it'd be much easier to split the continent with RP, and we'd have less to fear from them in the long run
[22:21] {MasterZen> so, I guess it would all end up being almost a last-minute decision
[22:21] {notyoueither> hmmm. you are in an interesting position
[22:21] {MasterZen> and a very difficult one mind you
[22:21] {MasterZen> you know, if we had RP's land we could afford neutrality. Sadly as it stands we can't.
[22:22] {notyoueither> i can see that
[22:22] * Hot_Enamel is now known as Hot_Enamel_away
[22:22] {MasterZen> hopefully getting Chivalry might dissade the others from considering us a target, at least for now
[22:22] {MasterZen> hence the importance we attach to a no-trade clause on Chivalry
[22:22] {notyoueither> riders are effective
[22:23] {MasterZen> it's really there to save our necks against Ansars or if RP is hoarding horsemen
[22:23] {MasterZen> very effective, one of my favorite units
[22:23] {MasterZen> but against 2 civs it's still a very difficult call...
[22:23] {notyoueither> we understand the need for an nta. we have no problem with the same we got for feudalism.
[22:24] {MasterZen> then you also understand why we are also pushing for a NAP
[22:24] {MasterZen> if we end up getting gang-banged by ND the LAST thing we want is for GS to also join in...
[22:24] {MasterZen> and if we end up being on the winning side, we'd greatly appreciate a long-term relationship to take on Lego
[22:24] {notyoueither> yes. however, i can assur you, gow sits on nothing that we desire.
[22:25] {MasterZen> what? you saying you don't want our delicious wines!!!!
[22:25] {notyoueither> in fact, as i review this conversation, a healthy gow seems to be in our interests
[22:25] {notyoueither> ahh, yes. wines. we do want those. we are happy to trade for them though
[22:26] {notyoueither> i should ahve said. nothing we desire enought to create an enemy
[22:26] {MasterZen> just kidding about the wines, we're actually using them to get your stormchickens drunk and take you out
[22:26] {notyoueither> haha
[22:27] {MasterZen> oops, just revealed our long-term plans... :P
[22:27] {notyoueither> you don;t want to see them with worse aim. eventually it has to warp and they'd be deadly accurate
[22:27] {MasterZen> hahaha
[22:27] {MasterZen> although with a hangover... :P
[22:27] {notyoueither> true. we could live with it though
[22:28] {MasterZen> well, we were hoping to have another "official" chat with you guys perhaps this week
[22:28] {notyoueither> that would be good
[22:28] {notyoueither> unortho's hours?
[22:28] {MasterZen> yes, UnOrthO was arranging it
[22:29] {notyoueither> good
[22:30] {notyoueither> is there anything else?
[22:30] {MasterZen> this, as you can imagine is a more informal affair, but I think it's a start
[22:30] {notyoueither> a very good start
[22:30] {MasterZen> so you can understand the rather "peculiar" position GoW is in, and how our relationship with GS fits in
[22:30] {notyoueither> i can see your pov
[22:31] {MasterZen> good, I consider it a very good start too
[22:31] {notyoueither> i hope to see you soon then
[22:31] {MasterZen> great
[22:32] {notyoueither> bye then
[22:32] {MasterZen> you logging this?
[22:32] {notyoueither> i hope so. can you send it to me if i goofed?
[22:32] {MasterZen> sure
[22:32] {notyoueither> thanks
[22:32] {notyoueither> bye
[22:32] {MasterZen> see ya at ISDG
[22:32] {MasterZen> hahahaa
Session Close: Sat Jun 21 22:33:00 2003

[zeit]

Somewhat disturbing message from UnO:

zeit,

Forgive my rather lax nature this week. There has been allot of things happening in RL that have led to my distraction.

Based on several chats with some GS members and the recent alternative offer that GS proposed, we are considering an alternative of our own.

At present, GoW is not in need of either the extra lux or the Iron that was offered as an alternative. It is also our understanding that GS is not in any hurry to acquire Chivalry as they are not planning to use it. Would it be possible for us to simply delay the selling of it in order to assess whatever situation, if any, arises on Bob? We are unwilling to make a deal for Iron now for a hypothetical future, however, if we were to wait until we knew we needed Iron, it would be a higher priority. Would it be possible to wait until our current Iron deal expires (10-15 turns, Im not sure, OR a declaration of war) and then make either the trade for 200 gold or the iron/lux?

As for a chat time. Weekends are pretty open for the most part, however, I have a wedding and a funeral this weekend, so it is completely shot. Perhaps Monday? 02:00 should be doable for GS, but I may be a bit late in attending with anything approaching active participation.
__________________

Are they trying to back off from the Chivalry deal?

reply:

Honorable UnOrthOdOx,

As for Chivalry- I'm not so sure we would like to have it delayed- 200 gold now (that is, when you finish researching) for the tech is what we discussed previously, and was generally agreed upon. Adding the Iron and Lux to it was merely an idea- as we are quite willing to pay the sum.

I also would like to point out, that in 10-15 turns, the value of this tech would decline, due to ending NTA you have signed on the tech.

Like I said, there is no problem making the trade now, as far as the GS is concerned. I hope the same goes for you.

As for a chat- 0200 GMT is good for some members, but for me that's undoable. If we can arrange some other time (between 0800GMT and 2200GMT, maybe?) I'll be grateful, if not, I'm sure a chat at the times previously discussed will be possible.

Cordially,
Zeit.

[notyoueither]

Chat with MZ, part 1

Session Start: Tue Jul 01 15:16:08 2003
Session Ident: MasterZen
[15:16] *notyoueither* hi. can we chat a moment re PTW DG?
[15:16] *MasterZen* sure thang
[15:16] *notyoueither* you are GoW FAM, correct?
[15:16] *MasterZen* you bet
[15:16] *notyoueither* cool
[15:17] *notyoueither* we sent a message 3 or 4 days ago, dod you guys get it?
[15:17] *MasterZen* to who?
[15:17] *notyoueither* let me check
[15:18] *notyoueither* June 27. zeit to Uno
[15:18] *notyoueither* Honorable UnOrthOdOx,
[15:19] *notyoueither* As for Chivalry- I'm not so sure we would like to have it delayed- 200 gold now (that is, when you finish researching) for the tech is what we discussed previously, and was generally agreed upon. Adding the Iron and Lux to it was merely an idea- as we are quite willing to pay the sum.
[15:19] *notyoueither* ...
[15:19] *notyoueither* did you get that one?
[15:20] *MasterZen* I think we did... lemme check
[15:21] *MasterZen* btw, I think we should organize a shat soon, perhaps later in the week?
[15:21] *MasterZen* *chat
[15:23] *notyoueither* that would be good
[15:24] *notyoueither* topics for chat?
[15:24] *MasterZen* I thought UnOrthO was organizing one but I haven't seen anything so far...
[15:24] *notyoueither* same here. zeit mentioned it at the end of his message
[15:24] *MasterZen* My week is pretty duty-free so I'm available any day
[15:25] *notyoueither* ok. about chivalry. you guys aren;t serious about delaying it, are you?
[15:26] *MasterZen* why, you guys want it pretty bad?
[15:26] *MasterZen*
[15:26] *notyoueither* well, yes. we want to complete the deal that began so long ago.
[15:27] *notyoueither* and we do not want to sit around without knights while riders, ansars, and then conquistadors are around
[15:28] *MasterZen* oh come one... of all civs, you should be the ones less to fear from others right now..
[15:29] *notyoueither* i think our point is that we have a deal, and we want to complete it.
[15:29] *MasterZen* don't worry, the deal will go through
[15:30] *notyoueither* we would be awefully sad if yet another deal with GoW went off the rails
[15:30] *MasterZen* UnOrthO is of course the guy with the details but I can assure you you'll get Chivalry
[15:30] *notyoueither* cool
[15:31] *notyoueither* when do you complete it?
[15:31] *MasterZen* game's pretty slow as of late, I haven't gotten the last save, don't know but it's pretty soom
[15:31] *MasterZen* damn typos
[15:32] *notyoueither* very good.
[15:33] *notyoueither* has uno been around?
[15:33] *MasterZen* I think he's been a bit busy with the SPDG nominations
[15:34] *notyoueither* maybe that is why no chat has been arranged.
[15:34] *MasterZen* zeit is online
[15:35] *MasterZen* join #GoW_CoFA
Session Close: Tue Jul 01 16:37:19 2003

[notyoueither]

Chat with MZ, part 2

Session Start: Tue Jul 01 15:35:38 2003
Session Ident: #GoW_CoFA
[15:35] * Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
[15:35] *notyoueither* hello again
[15:35] *zeit* hey there
[15:36] *MasterZen* good afternoon guys
[15:36] *zeit* its good night for me
[15:36] *zeit*
[15:36] *MasterZen* where you from zeit?
[15:36] *zeit* the holy land...
[15:36] *MasterZen* ah
[15:37] *MasterZen* Mecca?
[15:37] *notyoueither* zeit and shiber are from israel
[15:37] *MasterZen* hahaha
[15:37] *zeit* lol
[15:37] *notyoueither* gs are scattered all over the place. kind of funny when you think of the name
[15:37] *MasterZen* yes, true
[15:37] *MasterZen* well, GoW is not without its variety
[15:38] *MasterZen* NZ, Mexico, Brazil, USA, Canada...
[15:38] *notyoueither* we don;t have a brazil. we'll trade you one israel for 1 brazil
[15:38] *zeit* yes, you have the americas.. and HotE, who keeps complaining about the timezone problem..,
[15:39] *MasterZen* yes, shame... we can never get him into the chats
[15:39] *MasterZen* so, what was on your mind zeit?
[15:39] *notyoueither* zeit, i was chatting with mz re chivalry
[15:39] *zeit* Chivalry
[15:39] *zeit* oh, okay
[15:39] *zeit* care to fill me in?
[15:39] *MasterZen* and I was just telling nye that don't worry, you'll get it
[15:40] *notyoueither* he said we would get it, but we haven't nailed down when they are getting it
[15:40] *MasterZen* problem is UnOrthO has been doing the details with your team...
[15:40] *zeit* yeah, but time is an issue as well
[15:40] *zeit* that's right, and I got something from him
[15:40] *zeit* I wasn't sure exactly if there was a problem or not
[15:40] *MasterZen* he's been kinda busy with the SPDG nominations...
[15:40] *zeit* that's okay
[15:40] *zeit* it was just that he suggested delaying chivalry
[15:41] *notyoueither* brb
[15:41] *zeit* as if we asked for it
[15:41] *zeit* so I wasn't sure if there was some problem with this right now
[15:41] *zeit* I'll check the message now to avoid any mistakes in quotation...
[15:42] *MasterZen* did you guys agree on anything final?
[15:42] *MasterZen* besides the fact that it could have been delayed...
[15:42] *MasterZen* I belive it was 200g
[15:42] *zeit* that's right
[15:42] *MasterZen* what about the NAP? That was something we wanted to arrange with you people
[15:42] *zeit* but I also suggested an alternative, which you didn't like- that was okay with us, as I mentioned to him...
[15:43] *zeit* but then he said something about delaying the deal, which I didn't really know where the idea came from
[15:43] *MasterZen* what was the alternative?
[15:43] *zeit* Iron+2 lux for lux and chivalry
[15:44] *zeit* but we're perfectly fine with chivalry for 200g gold
[15:44] *zeit* as well as Lux-Lux deal
[15:44] *MasterZen* yes, that would be best
[15:44] *MasterZen* I believe we also arranged a no-trade clause?
[15:45] *zeit* obviously
[15:45] *zeit* 10 turns
[15:45] *MasterZen* ok
[15:45] *zeit* but he said you want to wait 10-15 turns
[15:45] *MasterZen* delay 10-15 turns?
[15:46] *zeit* he suggested it
[15:46] *zeit* lets just we don't like the idea of delay
[15:46] *MasterZen* well, neither do I... hehehe
[15:46] *MasterZen* at least not that long
[15:46] *zeit* especially when other teams will have the tech, I'm sure you can understand that
[15:47] *zeit* do you have the tech already?
[15:48] *MasterZen* last turn I checked was 230 and no, not yet
[15:48] *zeit* okay, but i do remember something about 3 turns, and that was about 2 turns ago
[15:49] *zeit* but i could be wrong, of course
[15:49] *MasterZen* I think we might get it this turn (190) or the next something like that...
[15:49] *zeit* anyway, its certainly not that far away (1 or 2 turns)
[15:49] *zeit* why would you want to delay the selling?
[15:50] *MasterZen* I have no clue, ask UnO...
[15:50] *zeit* I did, but as you said, he's somewhat busy, and I got no reply ever since
[15:50] *MasterZen* I just PMed him right now about this whole deal.
[15:51] *zeit* I did a few days ago...
[15:51] *zeit* 3 days, to be exact
[15:51] *MasterZen* well, let's see if he answers sometime today...
[15:51] *zeit* perhaps his silence meant a yes...
[15:52] *MasterZen* but rest assured, you WILL get chivalry
[15:52] *zeit* But timing is important as well, is it not?
[15:52] *MasterZen* it seems to be incredibly important to you from what I'm hearing...
[15:53] *zeit* not incredibly, but such a tech is dangerous when you're the only one without it, right?
[15:54] *MasterZen* who does the mighty armies of the Gathering Storm have to fear?
[15:55] *zeit* Well, a delay certainly seems a bit odd at this point, after we've negotiated and agreed on a deal, don't you agree?
[15:55] *zeit* I'm sure you can understand that we don't like the idea of it
[15:56] *MasterZen* neither do we, but right now I'm looking at the deals thread and I see no "finalized" deal yet... and UnO has not PMed me with anything either
[15:57] *zeit* well, we were talking about this deal for a very very long time (from the beginning of the war with Vox, I believe) and as far as we knew, it was agreed upon
[15:57] *MasterZen* from what I'm reading you two were still negotiating and it appeared 200g for Chiv and lux-lux was the trade which was going to done
[15:58] *zeit* that's right
[15:58] *MasterZen* but again, nothing "official"
[15:58] *MasterZen* which in case either you or us should send each other an "official proposal"
[15:59] *MasterZen* gimme a sec... I'm looking at the last chat Shiber and UnO had...
[16:00] *notyoueither* mz. this deal was made when we sold feudalism to you
[16:01] *notyoueither* the deal was, feud for 200, then chiv for 200
[16:01] *notyoueither* don't tell me that GoW are going to try to renege on another deal with us.
[16:02] *zeit* he did say we WILL get chivalry
[16:02] *MasterZen* no we are not, a deal is a deal, I'm just looking at the last chat we had to sort out the details since UnO isn't here
[16:02] *MasterZen* I can't be ambassador to every team you know, that's why UnO has free reign when dealing with you
[16:03] *zeit* I think we agreed on the details, besides timing, which we took for granted as being the time you finish researching
[16:03] *notyoueither* the communications recently have gotten confused because we offered alternate payment methods that gow might like.
[16:03] *zeit* correction: we did agree on the details
[16:03] *notyoueither* but apparently not, so we are prepared to hand over the 200 any time
[16:03] *zeit* but like i said, that's just an alternative
[16:03] *notyoueither* we have been for some time
[16:04] *notyoueither* but we were told some time ago to not worry about it. i believe
[16:05] *MasterZen* look, for me the 200g deal is good, I just wan't UnO's final say on it
[16:05] *notyoueither* ok. cool. can you contact him?
[16:05] *MasterZen* I did about 10 minutes ago while we were chatting
[16:05] *MasterZen* PMed him
[16:05] *notyoueither* ok.
[16:06] *notyoueither* we look forward to hearing back soon
[16:06] *MasterZen* what about the NAP, it seems it was also being discussed...
[16:06] *zeit* that's another issue..
[16:06] *MasterZen* as well as certain "geo-strategical" details which we talked about the other day (me and nye)
[16:07] *zeit* right
[16:07] *notyoueither* me?
[16:07] *MasterZen* that's why I want a nice big official chat with your team
[16:07] *notyoueither* mz, can you tell us where your concerns lie vis-a-vis bob?
[16:07] *MasterZen* yeah, you me and UnO
[16:08] *zeit* before we have a big chat, why don't we find your ambassador
[16:08] *MasterZen* about a week ago
[16:08] *notyoueither* oh, right
[16:08] *MasterZen* you know our concerns
[16:08] *zeit* their undestandable, of course
[16:09] *notyoueither* mz. i can tell you one thing for sure.
[16:09] *MasterZen* in a nutshell: should war erupt on bob, we will do anything as to not make it RP-ND vs us
[16:09] *zeit* and I do think it was that GoW is not considered as a target by GS
[16:09] *notyoueither* we would really not like to see nd and rp vs gow
[16:10] *MasterZen* then why the reluctance on the NAP? We'd be willing to give you the wines for free for it... unfortunately "assurances" are just words, everything we do HAS to take into account the possibility that GS will intervene...
[16:10] *notyoueither* i beleive it may be possible to begin discussing joint actions if that came to pass
[16:11] *notyoueither* the reason for avoiding the naps, mz, is exactly to avoid that which you do not want
[16:11] *notyoueither* how would rp react to news of us with an nap with you?
[16:12] *MasterZen* ?
[16:12] *MasterZen* the nap does not have to be made public
[16:12] *notyoueither* these things have a way of coming out
[16:12] *MasterZen* in fact, making it public would defeat the whole purpose of it...
[16:12] *MasterZen* not from our side it won't come out...
[16:12] *MasterZen* we're the ones who gain more from it, we wouldn't screw it that way
[16:12] *notyoueither* may i ask, is gow contemplating begining hostilities?
[16:13] *notyoueither* mz, you would be surprised what we have learned through unofficial channels
[16:14] *MasterZen* all options are on the table as to avoid us getting caught with our pants down
[16:14] *MasterZen* hopefully us getting Chivalry will be a "warning" for the other two not to mess with us... we'll see what happens
[16:14] *MasterZen* unofficial?
[16:14] *notyoueither* not through ambassadors.
[16:15] *MasterZen* ah
[16:15] *MasterZen* unofficially we're planning to invade Lego
[16:15] *notyoueither* people are citizens, but may have interests other than those of the leaders of their states
[16:16] *notyoueither* freinds say things to each other, and so on.
[16:16] *MasterZen* well, that sounds like treason to me...
[16:17] *MasterZen* I have a good friend from CDG and I ain't telling him stuff about our ISDG team...
[16:17] *notyoueither* usually, it is slips
[16:17] *notyoueither* that is a good policy
[16:18] *MasterZen* hell, I even have a good friend who isn't on any PTWDG team ask to see the map and I was like HELL no!
[16:18] *zeit* hmm.. isn't is too much?
[16:18] *MasterZen* actually I was hoping the secrecy would lure him to join a team...
[16:19] *zeit* and...
[16:19] *zeit* ?
[16:19] *MasterZen* he hasn't...
[16:20] *zeit* well guys, you have fun, my sis is nagging me to give her the comp... see you later
[16:20] *zeit* bye]
[16:20] *MasterZen* cya Zeit
[16:20] * zeit has quit IRC (Quit: )
[16:20] *notyoueither* bye
[16:21] *MasterZen* c'est la vie dans le PTWDG...
[16:21] *notyoueither* mz, under what circumstances do you fear action by gs against gow?
[16:21] *MasterZen* I already told you the three possibilities facing the Bobians:
[16:22] *MasterZen* GoW vs ND-RP, GoW-ND vs RP, GoW-RP vs ND
[16:22] *notyoueither* i'm trying to see if i can find a way to present your case to gs in such a way as we would make an exception to our nap policy
[16:22] *MasterZen* under any of the two last ones I see the possibility of GS intervening to maintain a "balance of power" should RP or ND be in the brink of defeat
[16:23] *notyoueither* i see. so you really have no idea how things are going to go down.
[16:23] *notyoueither* just assumptions that something is gonna happen
[16:24] *MasterZen* we might have a "bobian" conference in a few turns... try and gauge the other teams
[16:25] *notyoueither* hmmm
[16:25] *MasterZen* we know RP is a little paranoid too... what I find suspicious is that they really haven't approached us as of late...
[16:26] *notyoueither* that is curious
[16:26] *MasterZen* especially since, personally, I think part of their paranoia is towards your team
[16:27] *notyoueither* would a signed agreement that we would not start a war with you, and we would not join a war started against you help?
[16:27] *notyoueither* with the same reciprocated?
[16:27] *MasterZen* that would be highly valued by our team
[16:28] *notyoueither* i can see if we could make that fly.
[16:28] *MasterZen* we would really appreciate it
[16:28] *notyoueither* i can understand the difficulties of the map from your pov
[16:29] *notyoueither* any thing that involves nd against you would be very bad
[16:29] *MasterZen* VERY bad
[16:29] *MasterZen* although should RP join in against them perhaps there's hope...
[16:30] *MasterZen* although there's always the possibility of ND doing a Schlieffen... striking at the weak one then turning on the strong one
[16:30] *notyoueither* that would be bad for them, but you would still bear the brunt of thsoe cheap ansars
[16:30] *MasterZen* yeah, ansars are a real pain...
[16:31] *notyoueither* i know. i am arab in an mp game at the moment
[16:31] *MasterZen* there is another possiblity though.. that ND might ask us to join them against RP then get at us afterwards...
[16:31] *notyoueither* fast, and cheap
[16:31] *MasterZen* that way, our Golden Age is spent against RP and then they get cheap ansars vs our expensive Riders...
[16:32] *notyoueither* but then, you would have a ga to build up
[16:32] *MasterZen* well, in the end there's a lot of possible scenarios
[16:32] *MasterZen* well so would they
[16:32] *notyoueither* and no doubt have many riders
[16:32] *MasterZen* this might seem ironic coming from the Glory of WAR.. but most of us fancy a peaceful GA..
[16:33] *notyoueither* lol
[16:33] *notyoueither* i have to go shortly
[16:33] *MasterZen* np
[16:33] *MasterZen* I hope we can chat later on though, with more of our teammates present
[16:34] *notyoueither* i will post logs, and gs can discuss a specified nap.
[16:34] *MasterZen* that would be great
[16:34] *notyoueither* that would be good.
[16:34] *MasterZen* I'll see if UnO gets back to me about the deal so we can officially sign it
[16:34] *notyoueither* we would very much appreciate that, except we see it as signed, just pending delivery
[16:35] *notyoueither* it was that deal we sold you feud under
[16:35] *MasterZen* yes, I understand, its just that since he was negotiating stuff with zeit and Shiber that we all got a bit mixed up
[16:36] *notyoueither* that was very confusing. they should not have pressed alternate payments like that.
[16:36] *MasterZen* yes, I agree
[16:36] *notyoueither* ok. i go now.
[16:36] *MasterZen* cya
[16:36] *notyoueither* bye
Session Close: Tue Jul 01 16:37:00 2003

[zeit]

relieving news:

zeit,

My apologies on the confusion from last week, my mind was surely not fully on this game as I was best man at a friends wedding and had both my dog and my wifes grandmother pass away.

To explain what happened a bit, I had created a thread specifically for our trade discussion, and was checking it constantly. However, for some reason, the discussion had moved back to the main diplomacy thread for your team without my knowledge due to my relative lack of participation. As a result, I never learned that your team had agreed to the 10 turn no trade clause, and I was acting on an alternate plan to get those 10 turns (ie, seeing if you would wait).

This is all a mistake on my part, and I am copying this into my own teams forum as well. Please express my apologies to GS for the confusion that I created, and we look forward to completing the deal as outlined: Chiv for 200 and 10 turns no-trade, lux for lux.

Back to the chat. 2200 GMT could work for me as a start time, but only for the next two weeks. 10:00 GMT would be a better start time for me personally, and I believe Hot_Enamel is normally online around that time as well, though I think the rest of the team would likely be absent from that time. Still, for what little needs to really be done in this chat, it would work fine. This is really more of a friendly chat than the working of isues AFAIK. If 10:00 GMT works for you, what day would be best?

Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx

My reply:

Dear UnOrthOdOx,

Glad to see you're back in business

Its good to see that the issue has been settled, The firrst shipment of Furs is already in route, just reply with your Wines and its settled.

We also sent you our WM, according to the WM-WM trade agreement.

About for Chivalry- Timing is also an issue. If I understand correctly now, it seems there is no problem for you to deliver the tech at the turn you finish the research, right?

As for a time to chat- 10:00 GMT is good for me, just not tommorow (July 3rd) and next Sunday (6th)- other than those, any day is okay (hey, that rhymes! ), so just tell me, and I'll be there!

Cordially,
Zeit.

[zeit]

Ratifying the deal:

zeit,

We will send along Chivalry next time the save graces our presence. I look forward to seeing the map so I can finish up the next piece of my story as well.

Well, Friday the 4th is a holiday here in the states, which makes it look like Saturday the 5th is our best bet. That work for you?

UnOrthOdOx

UnOrthOdOx,

Saturday 10:00GMT sounds great, I'll be there!

Thanks for ratifying the agreement, and once again, accept my apologies for the ongoing misunderstandment.

One more thing, about the Luxury deal- I havn't mentioned it before, as I wasn't sure how our team sees it, but now it seems we have the official policy: Luxury deals are basically indefinite, and can be cancelled at any time, without any consequences for either party. However, the party choosing to end the deal must give at least 2 turns of warning before he does so (most likely by a technical declaration of war), to give the other party adequate time to adjust their plans accordingly.

I hope you have no problem with this policy- after all, there's no reason why we have to limit ourselves to 20 turn deal as a result of the game mechanics (which I'm puzzeled at why they have to be so constrictive ).



Cordially,
Zeit.[/quote]

[zeit]

From UnO:

zeit,

Sorry for my tardiness in getting this to you this time, it is a holiday here in the States, and I am now President in the SPDG as well. Just a warning, that may take some time, and I may need to appoint an assistant for you guys. Ill let you know if that becomes the case.

Anyway, GoW would like to discuss the following:

NYE mentioned in a recent chat with MZ that you guys had obtained some informal information. We were wondering if you intended to share this information with us or not, and if not, we wondered if we could know from where it came. Expecially if there is a GoW member, active or not, giving out information, we feel it is in the best interest of the game that it not continue. If, however, someone just slipped somewhere, we understand.

We are curious about the research path that GS is taking. We would like to coordinate research to work towards a future trade.

And finally,
NYE mentioned he was re-wording the Non Agression and that GS may approve it, just want an update on how this is proceeding.

Look forward to seeing you.

UnOrthOdOx
Ambassador to Gathering Storm

[zeit]

Chat log, part 1:

* Retrieving #GoW_CoFA info...
* zeit sets mode: +k pitabread
*MasterZen* what are we going to do tonight brain?
*hot_enamel* Hi all ... beautiful 8.10pm here !!!
*zeit* we have an improvised agenda
*MasterZen* well, I'll let UnO and you guys handle this
*UnOrthOdOx* wait a sec MZ. I need you on one item.
*MasterZen* oh don't worry, I'm here, ain't going away
*UnOrthOdOx* looking for my agenda, one sec.
*MasterZen* my eyelids don't weigh like bricks yet...
*notyoueither* mine do
*zeit* I think we'll start with Lux-lux deals, there's something we should straighten up
*MasterZen* go ahead
*UnOrthOdOx* OK.
*zeit* to be exact, cancelation policy
*zeit* we don't see those as implicit NAPs
*zeit* as these can be negotiated seperately
*MasterZen* ?
*zeit* therefor, they can be cancelled at any time
*zeit* with a one turn notice
*zeit* to avoid unhappiness issues
*UnOrthOdOx* I haven't responded with the wording you asked for yet, MZ, FYI
*hot_enamel* Why would anyone want to cancel it ?
*zeit* its just that lux-lux deals (or lux-resource deals)
*zeit* for any reason whatsoever- closing another deal e.g
*zeit* with limited luxuries...
*Shiber* hot_enamel, if one gets a promise for a better deal from another civ
*MasterZen* you know that's not really how everyone's been doing deals so far...
*Shiber* Or if one gets paid to cancel the deal
*zeit* yeah, but does a lux deal necessarily mean 20 turns NAP?
*Shiber* MasterZen, according to our conception, lux-lux deals are basically turn-by-turn exchanges.
*hot_enamel* Hmmm .. not very honorable
*MasterZen* not if in the contract it says 20 turns
*zeit* sure
*UnOrthOdOx* ok. I guess I can just respond here instead of through PM, ok?
*Shiber* MasterZen, that's why we're not signing a 20 turns contract.
*MasterZen* then what are you signing?
*zeit* UnO, of course
*Shiber* We find that the game mechanics are limiting and quite inappropriate.
*MasterZen* btw, have you traded luxes before?
*zeit* no
*UnOrthOdOx* MZ and HE seem a tad grumpy...
*Shiber* They don't let you set the number of turns that the deal can go on.
*MasterZen* 20 has always worked for us
*UnOrthOdOx* GoW appreciates that you have given us your official policy on the trading of luxuries.
*UnOrthOdOx* However.
*hot_enamel* after this 20 turns .. we can do it the GS way
*Shiber* Anyway MasterZen, if a deal was, say, 20 turns of Lux for a tech, then we'd have to honor it for 20 turns because it is not a turn-by-turn exchange.
*Shiber* But in the case of lux-for-lux, when a deal is cancelled, both parties lose equal benefits.
*UnOrthOdOx* We feel that deals are deals, and deals have limits. Since no length was discussed, we were considering this the Civ III standard of 20 turns, to be renegotiated at the end.
*UnOrthOdOx* Nothing is to say that renegotiation needs be difficult, either.
*Shiber* UnOrthOdOx, if that is the case then we'll have to cancel the deal with a technical state of war the next turn, because we're not proceeding with something that we haven't signed on.
*hot_enamel* As per every other Lux deal we have !
*MasterZen* and everyone else has done too
*Shiber* UnOrthOdOx, I have spoken to one member of your team (I think it was MZ) some time ago,
*UnOrthOdOx* can I finish, Shiber, MZ, HE?
*MasterZen* I don't think you're going to get many lux deals with that policy, the uncertainty is too high
*notyoueither* we acknowledge your position.
*MasterZen* go ahead
*hot_enamel* Go for it Uno
*hot_enamel* Grumpy #1 & Grumpy #2 will remain quiet
*UnOrthOdOx* As far as GoW is concerned, We will not break it for 20 turns, and will seek renegotiation at turn 20. We understand, though, that GS may seek to cancel it earlier through a declaration of war.
*UnOrthOdOx* We may not be happy about that if/when it happens, but we promise not to publicly cry foul.
*zeit* because of the Lux-lux nature of deal (not to cry foul)?
*UnOrthOdOx* claim you violated.
*Shiber* I had a chat with MZ the other day. He asked me whether lux-for-lux deals are considered as informal NAPs by GS, and I said that I'm not entirely sure and we should discuss this. Then you sign a lux-for-lux deal with us and assume that it's an informal NAP.
*UnOrthOdOx* We assumed nothing.
*Shiber* Of course, if your stand is that you will not consider it a violation if we cancelled the deal prior to its end (by your standards) with a 1 turn notice, then it's ok.
*UnOrthOdOx* I thought that it might.
*Shiber* Although I would most like the situation if this was a deal with equal conditions.
*Shiber* Well, IMHO you should have asked, since we have never conducted lux deals with GoW.
*MasterZen* for the record, I've treated a NAP as an entirely different thing
*notyoueither* Shiber, UnO has already acknowledged our point.
*UnOrthOdOx* We asked, were told it was not, this cancelation thing is new since it was signed. We figured it was for 20 turns.
*zeit* okay, so you don't see the deal as an implicit NAP, just that it is for 20 turns
*UnOrthOdOx* yes.
*hot_enamel* Why should we think GS would treat a lux deal differentl to any other teamm
*zeit* and a 1-turn notice prior to cancelation is okay,
*zeit* and no side will cry foul shoudl this happen
*zeit* right?
*hot_enamel* When GS declares war on GoW... we could not care less about a broken Lux deal
* Shiber is now known as Shiber|BRB
*UnOrthOdOx* yes.
*zeit* very well then, I think its settled then
*notyoueither* he, why ever would we DoW GoW?
*UnOrthOdOx* I think HE needs a few beers.
*UnOrthOdOx* and MZ few hours of sleep.
*MasterZen* something like that :P
*hot_enamel* Off to go get the burbon ... brb
*notyoueither* me too!
*notyoueither* xpost
*MasterZen* screw that, I'm getting the rum, anybody want some?
*zeit* perhaps a fleet of GoW galleys would pop near our coast next turn, who knows,
*MasterZen* um... yeah
*MasterZen* my question is why would you guys want to break a lux deal for 20 turns...
*zeit* we certainly wouldn't
*MasterZen* or perhaps I'm not getting this right, will this be an "eternal" lux deal until one side chooses to break it?
*zeit* our only concern was it might be seen as a NAP
*notyoueither* mz, the difficulty comes in when other civs may see a lux deal as a 20 turn nap.
*zeit* that's right MZ
*MasterZen* I doubt they'd see it that way
*zeit* in fact, we have seen it as indefinite
*notyoueither* so do i, but concerns have been raised
*zeit* cancelabe at a 1-turn notice
*zeit* without any implications
*MasterZen* this is wierd... I honestly don't know what to think of it
*UnOrthOdOx* mmm coffee.
*zeit* so the differences don't seem so big as we've thought
*MasterZen* mmm I need some
*notyoueither* hmm... bed
*MasterZen* mmm rum
*zeit* you just see it as seperate 20-turn deals, right?
*hot_enamel* mmmm .....burbon

[zeit]

Part 2:

*MasterZen* yep, but look at it this way:
*zeit* oh, man, I'm chatting with a bunch of sleep-deprived people
*UnOrthOdOx* Or we have no problem agreeing to 30, 40 or whatever if specifically stated.
*notyoueither* you set the time, buddy.
*MasterZen* a 20 turn lux deal does not mean a nap. Should for any reason god-forbid GoW-GS would be at war, then the whole thing is off. Period. No one will go crying that the other broke a lux deal
*zeit* hmmm, nap
*zeit* right, agreed
*MasterZen* now, a NAP is an entirely different thing...
*hot_enamel* Hoo Ray
*notyoueither* anyways, zeit is awake, so i will say g'night
*MasterZen* pass me some bourbon H_E...
*zeit* of course, this is also on the agenda
*MasterZen* ok, gnight
*hot_enamel* But .. GS want to cancel it in 1 turn, if they get a better offer ..
* notyoueither has left #GoW_COFA
*UnOrthOdOx* Or paid to stop.
*MasterZen* now, please, what better offer can you get, it's a straight 1-1 deal?
*hot_enamel* Thats what ****s me !
*zeit* I think we're fine with the lux thing
*UnOrthOdOx* HE, MZ, they are in the end mercenaries too.
*MasterZen* aren't we all?
*hot_enamel*
*zeit* I didn't say we want to, just that for whatever reason we could cancel without implications
*MasterZen* but what I'm getting at is that no-one really cares about lux deals once a war breaks out
* Shiber|BRB is now known as Shiber
*zeit* not whatever, okay, but that it doesn't count as NAP, on which you agree
*MasterZen* so, if you are not planning to go to war with us, then what's the problem? 20 turns simple as that.
*zeit* so I think that's settled
*MasterZen* no, it's not a NAP
*zeit* 20 turns is okay
*MasterZen* then we settle on 20 turns?
*hot_enamel* Hoo Ray
*zeit* renegotiable, of course
*MasterZen* of course
*MasterZen* no hard feelings if you choose not to
*zeit* than that's fine
*zeit* then
*MasterZen* seriously, eh! if you get a better offer good, just respect teh 20 turns
*UnOrthOdOx* zeit, see what I deal with?
*zeit* very well, NEXT!
*hot_enamel* Phew .. That burbon did the trick :b
*MasterZen* I'm still waiting H_E... :P
*zeit* its okay, nothing like a heated debate to get things moving...
*UnOrthOdOx* Ok.
*MasterZen* so, what's next in the agenda? Peacekeeping in Liberia?
*MasterZen* oh wait, that's RL...
*zeit* and i figured this would be the easiest part
*zeit* hold on, i'll check
*MasterZen* Don't worry, I'm always like this :P
*UnOrthOdOx* this informal information.
*MasterZen* UnO better bring some duct tape next time
*zeit* yes, it seems you were worried about some mole perhaps
*zeit* well fear none
*UnOrthOdOx* MZ, you know more about the whole thing...can you play nice?
*zeit* NYE was refering to casual talks, not some leak or anything,
*MasterZen* the duct tape would have been for me
*MasterZen* i.e. shutting me up
*hot_enamel* I brought that up
*zeit* i got it
*UnOrthOdOx* The way it was presented, we thought you guys were wanting to share said information but the chat diverged from that course. Is that the case?
*zeit* I don't think so
*zeit* we're already sharing, don't we?
*hot_enamel* I was worried we had a non-active member ratting us out .. Thats just not in the spirit of the game
*UnOrthOdOx* we have plenty of non-actives.
*MasterZen* like 4/5 of the team :P
*hot_enamel* 6/7
*zeit* nothing to worry about, there's no such thing, and we would have never thought of using one anyway
*zeit* it is not in the spirit of the game, as you said
*MasterZen* it's not you trying to... it's him doing it voluntarily which scares us
*UnOrthOdOx* Since we agree that is not in the spirit, would you tell us?
*zeit* don't worry about it, we havn't run into one
*UnOrthOdOx* I know there are teams that would welcome such a thing.
*MasterZen* but has he run into you?
*zeit* MZ- no
*hot_enamel* Move on .. next
*UnOrthOdOx* Research.
*zeit* yes, a worthy subject
*zeit* go on
*UnOrthOdOx* What are you guys researching, can we arrange a trade, etc, so on,
*zeit* currently, we're not researching, but we plan to research Economy
*zeit* than banking
*MasterZen* economy? that's a little far away...
*UnOrthOdOx* MZ...what did we decide as well.
*UnOrthOdOx* ****, we're not researching either....we all letting Lego plug away at it?
*zeit* at what?
*UnOrthOdOx* I mean, with our two teams not researching, Lego will be selling.
*UnOrthOdOx* Likely
*UnOrthOdOx* not my personal top pick of where to spend money.
*zeit* so don't we split?
*hot_enamel* It's going to be tough invading lego ... It's going to need a multi team effort
*hot_enamel*
*zeit* research costs, or something
*zeit* of course
*hot_enamel* Oh .. you were talking research ... my bad
*MasterZen* hahahaha... that bourbon's getting to ya
*UnOrthOdOx* Make sure they only sell ONCE...yes, that can be arranged with us.
*UnOrthOdOx* Hopefully the others as well.
*zeit* perhaps we could do the research, and GoW will participate in the costs
*UnOrthOdOx* I believe we will start up again once outstanding contracts are fulfilled.
*zeit* start research, right?
*MasterZen* we are still undecided over Space Flight or Synthitic Fibers...
*UnOrthOdOx* yes. We already have agreements for anything we could currently research.
*zeit* okay, so it maybe we can work something out for the future
*UnOrthOdOx* sure. Any idea which path you will go?
*UnOrthOdOx* we could do the opposite.
* Shiber is now known as Shiber|Lunch
*Shiber|Lunch*
*zeit* banking
*zeit* and then economy
*hot_enamel* GS going for democracy ?
*hot_enamel* Or Lego ?
*zeit* we don't know,
*UnOrthOdOx* Why not? with the damn removal of WW
*UnOrthOdOx* basically
*zeit* for the government, sure
*MasterZen* that would be good... we suspect Lego is going for Music Theory and RP for Printing Press
*zeit* but perhaps we'll research econ. head on
*hot_enamel* GoW/RP/ND can stick with the bottom tech tree
*zeit* I think we would appreciate trading for democracy
*MasterZen* we can go invention
*zeit* also true...
*zeit* do you have solid plans yet- as i said, we're pretty much set on banking and economics
*hot_enamel* Invention sounds like the most likely option
*zeit* won't you be duplicating anyone?
*MasterZen* not that we know of
*UnOrthOdOx* WOULD have been Vox...but that is not a problem anymore.
*UnOrthOdOx* thank you.
*zeit* yeah, but beware of the power of 40 turns research, in the hands of the biggest civ around
*zeit* but, perhaps they could be useful for us as well
*UnOrthOdOx* ok, shall we proceed?
*zeit* very well
*UnOrthOdOx* the 'difficult' part?
*UnOrthOdOx* NAP.
*zeit* sure...
*UnOrthOdOx* NYE was going to re-word it.
*UnOrthOdOx* where are we.
*zeit* it is still being discussed
*zeit* i can only say it is still a suggestion, but i'll say this:
*zeit* we are trying to find a formula that would allow us both to intervene should this be necessary,
*zeit* i'm looking for appropriate words, hold on please
*zeit* but that would increase each team's security
*hot_enamel* Zeit ... you should just tell us what would GS's responsebe if there was war on Bob
*zeit* something like: we won't join an alliance against you, nor start a war of agression against you
*UnOrthOdOx* There are those that are getting the feeling with the lux deal cancellation clause, the failure of the NAP, the specific wording NYE used...that you are looking for ways around things to attack us.
*UnOrthOdOx* Loopholes if you will.
*zeit* not the case
*hot_enamel* Exactly Uno ..
*zeit* i thought you would, and that's why i'm choosing my words carefuly
*UnOrthOdOx* "war of aggression" is all in the POV...
*UnOrthOdOx* for instance.
*zeit* we just fear a 2 v 1 war on Bob that would create a superpower on Bob
*hot_enamel* A 2 nation bob is NOT a superpower
*hot_enamel* Lego & GS are the superpowers
*zeit* it might turn into 1 nation soon thereafter
*hot_enamel* Its not a 1 nation yet
*zeit* RP also has the potential
*MasterZen* actually it might turn into 2 battered ones
*hot_enamel* Everything GS has said, has indicated they want to get involved if a war breaks out in Bob
*zeit* we have no plans whatsoever to attack GoW
*zeit* we keep this option to ourselves, HE, right
*zeit* i think it is legitimate
*zeit* after all, we're at least half bobians now
*hot_enamel*
*zeit* and once astronomy comes along- even more
*zeit* we're not looking for an opening to attack GoW, not at all

[zeit]

part 3:

*hot_enamel* We are the weakest nation .. and therefore your easiest target
*hot_enamel* And easy to invade
*MasterZen* let's cut the crap:
*zeit* but the weakest nation is definitely not a target, if you want to maintian stability, right?
*MasterZen* what would you do if we and RP allied against ND?
*MasterZen* what would you do if we and ND allied against RP?
*hot_enamel* But easier if you want a foothold on Bob
*MasterZen* what would you do if ND and RP allied against us?
*zeit* I honestly (really) don't know what we might do in the two upper options
*zeit* but we'll probably intervene on your behalf on the third
*zeit* but please, don't take my word for it
*MasterZen* of course not, but what would be the compelling evidence in either of the top two cases to intervene?
*MasterZen* would RP be too powerful in case #1? would ND in case #2? you know geography in both cases works against us..
*hot_enamel* A 2 nation bob still means no superpowers
*zeit* of course, that's why you are not a likely target at all,
*MasterZen* this is what I have been proposing to nye in the other chats I've had with them:
*MasterZen* please listen:
*hot_enamel* I need more ice anyway
*MasterZen* we all know who's going to win ceteris paribus (if everything remains the same): Lego
*MasterZen* we all know that after steam power Lego will be invincible, especially since they are industrial and will probably switch to democracy to build those RRs quick
*MasterZen* once that happens, NO ONE will be able to take them on, not even a combination of us
*zeit* very true
*MasterZen* so, this game will be won from here to Steam Power
*MasterZen* no one civ can take on Lego alone
*zeit* at least "not won" for lego...
*UnOrthOdOx* The I doubt 2 could...
*MasterZen* yep
*zeit* with careful planning, I think 2 could.
*MasterZen* now, if we were to hatch a long term plan against Lego
*MasterZen* i.e. to attack them before RR... that would work
*MasterZen* well, perhaps, but it's safer than after RR
*zeit* mutual interest will keep us both from fighting against eachother
*MasterZen* thus, like it or not, our destinies are intertwined...
*zeit*
*MasterZen* now, being no-bs here, each of us wants to win..
*zeit* mostly to have fun, but that as well
*MasterZen* what happens after Lego is a whole new story here, and I'm not going to dwell on it
*zeit* I don't think we were thinking of anhilating them
*MasterZen* but in the meantime, this is the only change WE (GoW or GS) get to win
*MasterZen* no, just making them not able to win
*zeit* just cripple
*MasterZen* however, the issue here is Bob
*zeit* of course, that's the powderkeg
*zeit* you're planning on dominating Bob?
*MasterZen* that will be quite difficult
*MasterZen* at least speaking in today's terms
*zeit* or just keep it stable until we muster a force against lego
*MasterZen* but...
*MasterZen* that is not to say the others don't have intentions either
*MasterZen* so, we as GoW have two options:
*MasterZen* we don't do anything, hope we all be nice bla bla bla ally with all Bobians and GS against Lego
*hot_enamel* A 3 nation Bob will not commit to Lego... each of us would be afraid the other will take the opportunity to attack
*MasterZen* exactly
*MasterZen* and if for some miraculous reason we do, we'll kick our ass afterwards anyway (and in effect give the game to you guys )
*zeit* oon the phone
*MasterZen* so, SOMETHING will happen
*MasterZen* I don't think we're the only ones who realize this
*MasterZen* if we do, then the ND and RP are really damn stupid
*MasterZen* but I doubt it
*MasterZen* now, to tell you the truth, we are not a reactive team
*zeit* more proactive- yes, despite being "mercenary"
*MasterZen* we WILL try and do something if we see the opportunity to do so. We also HOPE that we don't have to though
*UnOrthOdOx* CAN be bought and WILL be bought are entirely different...
*MasterZen* so true...
*zeit* we are worried about RP in bob, but mostly Lego
*MasterZen* so, as I've told nye, options 1 and 2 are, and have always been on the table (alliances with the other Bobians against another Bobian)
*zeit* true, but what if RP makes you do the fighting, and than walks over you and ND?
*MasterZen* we don't know who, we don't know when, and we don't know if, but it's a possibility that exists. We will not be caught with our pants down if ND and RP take a hit at us
*UnOrthOdOx* We can be bought, but will not be pawns. That is a good assessment.
*MasterZen* now this is where GS comes in
*MasterZen* everything we do, despite how well we are starting to get along, is in function of a probable GS response
*MasterZen* should we ally with ND against RP? Does GS hate RP enough that they'll just watch on the sidelines while we take them on?
*MasterZen* should we ally with RP against ND? Will GS intervene against any one of us in this case?
*MasterZen* see? those are the questions we ask ourselves every day...
*zeit* I don't know, intervening doesn't mean we'll be helping RP...
*zeit* so are we, it worries us too- being a target of 3 bobians could become a reality
*MasterZen* to put it bluntly, should options 1 or 2 happen, which would you prefer?
*MasterZen* us allying with ND or RP?
*MasterZen* obviously option 3 is our worst nightmare
*zeit* I believe that with ND, for RP is the largest, but i'm a mere diplomat...
* Shiber|Lunch has quit IRC (Quit: Must leave, sorry )
*zeit* personally, I don't see any option in which we intervene against you
*zeit* but i have to back the team's policy, which is still against explicit NAPs...
*MasterZen* I would hope your team shares that PoV
*MasterZen* btw, NAPs don't have to be public...
*UnOrthOdOx* unless that is some GS code of honor
*zeit* sure, but they have a way to become, without any malicious intention on either side
*MasterZen* frankly I don't find it dishonorable to have deals not made public
*zeit* neither do we
*UnOrthOdOx* me either, just saying...
*zeit* Like i said, we understand your fears, and share some of them, especially lego's becoming a floating fortress
*zeit* and like i said, i believe common interests will keep us from fighting eachother
*zeit* we can't commit to a full NAP yet, but we're working on a formula that might please us both
*MasterZen* honestly I find it much easier to imagine a 2-bobian alliance with you against Lego
*UnOrthOdOx* Can you tell us? and have you discussed this with other bobians?
*zeit* discussed what exactly? alliance against lego?
*UnOrthOdOx* yes.
*zeit* hell no, and we'll keep it that way for now
*zeit* too premature to have it talked about
*zeit* but since you brought it up...
*zeit* have you?
*UnOrthOdOx* Not yet, wondering the best way to do it.
*UnOrthOdOx* and best timing.
*MasterZen* we fear this might lead to plans of backstabbing by the others...
*UnOrthOdOx* especially the king...
*MasterZen* we'd much rather ally with you first, that would dissaude any other Bobian from getting ideas
*zeit* understandable- this has to be coordinated
*UnOrthOdOx* ND is hard to predict as well.
*zeit* or perhaps make them develop ideas of attacking us both?
*zeit* before we swallow them
*MasterZen* if there's only 1 bobian remaining there's no chance of that
*UnOrthOdOx* there is no way there can be 1 bobian before the RR, making Lego defacto victors...
*zeit* this could be kept in secret so that your foe will have little time to organize for an attack
*MasterZen* should war break out on Bob, the 2 victors would have sizeable armies
*MasterZen* like you did against Vox
*zeit* but what if there will be no war?
*MasterZen* assuming you don't disband your army and we don't either, that's A LOT of firepower
*zeit* the idea of a combined attack, against lego, as well as some protection pact is interesting, GS will have to further discuss that
*MasterZen* I really hope you do
*zeit* before i could tell you anything concrete
*zeit* we surely will, we certainly see lego as favorite
*MasterZen* I just want to say one final thing (on my behalf because I've been hogging this part way too long now)
*MasterZen* what we've said is the whole no-bull**** truth
*zeit* I appreciate that
*MasterZen* we are in a very interesting position and we'd like to take advantage from it before others do
*MasterZen* we also want to win the game just like you
*MasterZen* however, we honestly feel that at least until the Lego issue is solved, our destinies are best shared
*zeit* good to hear that, i'm sure this will affect our future decisions
*zeit* but sadly (really), i can't commit to anything now, but that may change
*MasterZen* don't worry we understand
*zeit* well then, with this optimistic spirit, i'll have to say goodbye- duty calls (exam studies)
*MasterZen* all we ask is that you bring this back to your team
*zeit* of course
*MasterZen* and that hopefully we can get answers soon
*zeit* i hope so
*MasterZen* on our behalf we can assure you that whatever happens on bob which involves us, we'll let you know
*zeit* i've had a wonderful time, thanks everyone for coming
*zeit* thanks
*UnOrthOdOx* Anything else you had, zeit?
*hot_enamel* Cya
*zeit* not really...
*zeit* i really have to go, though
*MasterZen* that's it, I'm having breakfast know...
*MasterZen* cya zeit
*zeit* bon apetit
*UnOrthOdOx* great. I gotta thank you for being no BS with us
*hot_enamel* BUOURBONNn!!!!!!!!!!!
* Disconnected

[zeit]

To MZ and UnO:

Honorable Master Zen and UnOthOdOx,

I have enjoyed our chat quite a bit and I hope the same goes for you as well.

The issues raises during the chat deserve a serious discussion and debate and discussion within each team and of course between our teams as well. They shall get what they deserve, that's for sure, but perhaps with a certain delay- I will be out of town between sunday and tuesday, so I'm afraid I won't be able to handle correspondence at that time. Perhaps someone else will take charge at that time, but if this does not happen, please accept my apologies for the possible delay.

Cordially,
Zeit.

[zeit]

To UnO:

Dear UnOrthOdOx,

I'm not sure whether Shiber approved your Trappings installment, but it's okay- our map will be known throughout the world soon anyway. I'm sad to see you leave so soon- but such is the fate of the envoy, to be the governments' vagabond

Other than that, there are those (rather large ) leftovers from the chat. Rest assured, they are being discussed by the team, but these issues take time- as I'm sure your decision to bring up those suggestions in the chat wasn't made in one day.

Like yours, right now we are concerned of the developments on Bob, as well as how the post-war Bob shapes up. As I said, the GS realizes the potential Lego has if left alone, but the situation on Bob as it is leaves you little options right now, besides preparing yourself so you won't "be caught with your pants down" like you said. I believe common interests, coupled with trust, would ensure our teams' cooperation, but much still needs to be discussed.

Therefor, I would like to have another chat scheduled, in some time that would be comfortable for our both teams' members- like the one before the last one. Since the last chat was held on rather uncomfortable time for you, as well as for most of my team members, perhaps the next could be arranged around 0300 GMT?



Cordially,
Zeit.

His reply (quick one):

zeit,

Thank you for getting back to me. I have been anxiously awaiting word on Trappings due to the fact that I have been in a writting mood and have several more ready to go. As for being a short stay, it was actually quite long as far as Trappings is concerned. The longest to date, anyway.

As you say, I feel both our teams are really working towards the same end, and that will keep us cooperating. At least until Lego is no longer an issue, that is . We both would like to win after that, and such things would be expected.

The 10:00 time was perfectly fine with me personally, and HE...just no with the rest of the team too much. 03:00 is certainly doable as well. Given that I am now President over in the SPDG, I must coordinate with that as well. I have a meeting scheduled for Monday at 03:00 (pending a vote) so the best times for me would seem to be Saturday 0300 or Teusday 0300. Sunday 03:00 would be possible, but I am setting aside that evening for my family, I am sure you all understand.

I look forward to seeing you in chat, and to working together for some time to come.

UnOrthOdOx
Ambassador of the Glory of War team.

[OPD]

Copied from the other thread, now that I can see the contact log. The PM's aren't that important just stuff regarding trappings of war.

UnOrthOdOx> Hey
UnOrthOdOx> You there?
opd> lo
opd> pbeming
UnOrthOdOx> Have you guys been discussing Trappings XIX at all?
UnOrthOdOx> GS, I mean
opd> hmmmn don't know
opd> what is trappings again?
UnOrthOdOx> Oh well.
UnOrthOdOx> My story: The Trappings of War
opd> I haven't
UnOrthOdOx> XIX I mentioned the lux and map trades, was wanting to know if you guys wanted them kept secret, Shiber was supposed to post about it...
UnOrthOdOx> In your forums
opd> will check now
opd> there is alot of activity regarding GoW diplomacy atm
opd> I am not up with it at all
UnOrthOdOx> I am
opd> as mainly concentrate on RP diplomacy
UnOrthOdOx> Im your ambassador from GoW
opd> I can't confirm anything
opd> or tell you anything unless I'm mistaken
UnOrthOdOx> I just want to know it was brought up. this is not diplomacy at all, jut my pet project
opd> would you like me to post something in the forum?
UnOrthOdOx> I have the next two sections written, just waiting for confirmation that XIX was OK or not so I can rewrite
that part out.
opd> oh ok
opd> I see
UnOrthOdOx> how are things with RP, anyway?
UnOrthOdOx> If you can say
opd> bigfree's cool
opd> good to work with
UnOrthOdOx> adaMada left, we've been kinda in limbo since. usually deal directly with Togas.
opd> no ambassador from RP?
UnOrthOdOx> Nope
UnOrthOdOx> I know MrWIA is theirs to ND, but no idea who they have for Vox or Lego
UnOrthOdOx> I think GK may have been to lego, now I think about it...
UnOrthOdOx> Gk was someones ambassador
opd> I thought togas would have all diplomacy sorted
opd> maybe they don't care too much about GoW,
UnOrthOdOx> Well, ada just disappeared...think that threw them off. Not sure if they have enough activity?
UnOrthOdOx> That's what we're afraid of...actually
opd> you guys going to war with anyone soon?
UnOrthOdOx> not until someone hires us
UnOrthOdOx> no offers yet
opd> ok can't find anything regarding trappings in relevant thread
opd> would you like me to post about it
UnOrthOdOx> Just preparing defence against a possible RP/ND alliance.
opd> would you like me to post something concerning this in the forum?
UnOrthOdOx> If you would, just a kind reminder. I asked Shiber about it through PM yesterday.
opd> ok what would you like posted
UnOrthOdOx> I'll PM you in a minute.
UnOrthOdOx> gtg
opd> ok take care

[notyoueither]

Received from UnO.

Forgive me if this is a bit out of normal procedures. I asked zeit about possible times on wed, again earlier this morning and have not heard back yet. Is it possible to arrange a chat for tonight/tomorrow?

Sent.

Apologies on behalf of Gathering Storm for keeping you waiting, UnO.

A chat for this evening in NA is fine. We were planning for 0300 GMT. That should be 9pm for me and 11pm EDT.

nye