DIPLO: Glory of War contact LOG

[Theseus]

Cort, I opened a back channel chat for us.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Theseus
Cort, I opened a back channel chat for us.

damn, checked out that channel, but missed you guys, just panzer there.

good work on all fronts guys.

[Theseus]

To Aggie, donegeal, and Master Zen:

We had a short chat with Lego. They are, of course, maintaining their current commitments, including their support of GoW in the event that we attack your homeland. They are aware of our current contract negotiations, and in the event that we enter into the contract against ND as described, they will not interfere.

The above paragraph was specifically reviewed and approved by vondrack. Please contact him or Nimitz to confirm.

Shall we try to finish the agreement?

T

[Cort Haus]

Gow/GS chat - 23rd Nov

Cort> RP have sent us Toledo, Barca and New Madrid
Theseus>
Cort> they could be gone next turn if we reach agreement
Theseus> Pregnant pause.
MasterZen> ok
MasterZen> here's the deal
MasterZen> as you can imagine this proposal is pretty much the only thing we've been debating for the last couple of days (weeks)
Cort> indeed
Theseus> Us to.
Theseus> too
MasterZen> however, before we accept there are two things that bother us, and might impede an arrangement to be made
Theseus> RP and RP?
MasterZen> ok, THREE things
Theseus> LOL
MasterZen> but RP was already assumed as a given, so back to the other two
MasterZen> to be honest, our guys are not happy at the fact that we're getting half of bob, and GS is getting not only the other half but its already massively-developed territory (minus the pretty useless North Estonaia ghetto projects)
Cort> less than half - Lion's share for you guys
MasterZen> and the second point is Lego. Lego is not the isolationist turtle it was 50 turns ago. I think this point in history they will try and win by all means, and if that inolves being actively involved in the bobian question, they will
Cort> You'd have just about all of ND
Theseus> Can we deal with the second point first? Lego?
Cort> Fair point, MZ - will ND call in the MPP?
Theseus> I am not sure what you mean about Lego, MZ.
MasterZen> so as long as Lego's position remains an unknown, we can't really accept. If we go to war with ND it will be with all we've got, that will leave our territory really undefended
MasterZen> Lego might very well not tolerate our gangbaning of ND
Aggie> they are capable of intervening and creating a dissaterous war for both of us
Cort> What if Legonian neutrality could be assured?
MasterZen> and especially for us :P
MasterZen> yeah, like GS's neutrality for this war?
Aggie> i have good through the war in my mind. Lego could guarentee stalemate or worse.
Aggie> i mean gone
MasterZen> its the same thing that happened with GS. We did everything to prevent GS from intervening and wrongly thought we had achieved that. And it all went to hell
Theseus> Ahhh, the Lego "balance" issue. FYI, I outright asked vondrack if we could hire you... he said it would be fine. Also, we are trying to arrange a chat with Nimitz.
MasterZen> same exact thing can happen with Lego if ND does an RP-style deal with them, think about that
MasterZen> if I've learned anything from this game is that even the things you think are assured, aren't
Theseus> I do not believe that we can jointly enter into this contract without Lego's explicit agreement.
Theseus> Not can't... shouldn't.
Theseus> In fact, I have made overtures to Lego to join in the action.
Theseus> Move 'balance' from 4 primary players to 3.
Cort> We are prepared to share our portion of Bob with Lego if they do
Theseus> BTW, this is going to come back around to your first issue... we are committed to a 3 team 'balance' as well, and then we'll see where the game takes us.

Cort> did you like the Rider Upgrade Scheme?
Aggie> that was very helpful
Cort> So, assuming we can satisfy you with a fair share of Bob,
Theseus> Anyway, we presented a pretty comprehensive draft contract. Let's get down to the nitty gritty.
Aggie> Theseus and cort haus, as i said in our forum, the amount of time and detail you put into this, was amazing
Theseus> CH, really. :applause:
Cort> shows we're serious, right?
Aggie> yes indeed. Even people who might disagree, can't help but take a second look
Cort> So we're keen to get round the Lego problem
Theseus> Q: Who have you dealt with most and best at Lego? Vondrack? Nimitz?
Aggie> Well thats the most difficult one. If I'm lego I'd support ND and involve us the rest of the world in a war forever. aslo they get a GA out of it
Aggie> vondrack


Theseus> Lego: If it's OK, I'd like us to try to gain their concurrence.
Aggie> go for it
Aggie> but part of me suspects that the deal might still fall through from our end.
Aggie> there isa significant element that wants no GS on BOB
Aggie> this is just from a game winning situation for us point of view(nothing persoanl)
Theseus> Ah, Aggie, I was just typing a more complete thought... wait a sec.
Theseus> Further: You guys want more land. I assume that regards the current ND city at the SW edge of the jungle... how about we offer that to Lego, given a commitment to share the luxes (for now)?
Aggie> let me see a map
Aggie> brb
Theseus> Re no GS on Bob: You can't take out ND without us, and we don;t have a shot without more land. While we in fact will be the contracting party, you benefit greatly as well.
Theseus> Let me say that another way: You are paying US to give you a shot, in the form of land.
Theseus> And resources, too, but we have addressed that in our draft contract.
Aggie> i see that, but there are other ways we can win. In the end we(GOW) must look at all possibilites and see which ones have the best outcome for us
Theseus> Fair enough.
Theseus> Hmmm... Lego contracts GoW to take over Bob. Possible.
Aggie> to be honest I must be careful, becasue to a degree I ahve been playing the game with my own plans and strategies. I am aware of the charge that I do what I and not what the team wants
Theseus> We've actually heard that not about you but about vondrack.
Aggie> it was like a scenario to me when you come into a situation and then try to find the best way to win with what you have
Aggie> i suspect yes
Aggie> most talks were between me and him
Theseus> I've had the sense that although your debates have been raucous, GoW has been fairly unified.
Theseus> brb
Aggie> yes they are, but this is one of those, "2 distinct sides arguements"
Cort> So if you see your options best invested elsewhere, do you have any suggestions as to how we might otherwise end our war?
Aggie> well imho a deal of trade could do it, we guarentee resources and colonies in exchange for peace.
Aggie> lets face it, any cities you have on bob are hopelessly corrupt. Unless you palace jump to pamploma and buidl FP in your core. But then n estonia is hopelessly corrupt. So this is about resoiurces and lux in the end
Cort> and ND?
Theseus> We are prepared to Palace Jump.
Theseus> To us, the end-game is about production, not just resources.
Theseus> Also, nice job pinging our Knights.
Cort> good shooting
Aggie> we were lucky
Theseus> I gotta jump... let me summarize:
Theseus> * GoW is still undetermined as to their team choice of direction.
Aggie> yes we are
Aggie> saadly i still say a 50/50 chance of wither way
Aggie> either
Theseus> * Who gets what land (assuming that we can cut such a deal) is in question.
Aggie> yes,could you give us pamploma mountains north
Theseus> * We concur that Lego's cooperation is critical.
Theseus> Aggie, say that again... more clarity.
Aggie> is it possible you could expand our area from the mountains south of pamploma northward
Aggie> say Alamo remains ours
Aggie> and pamploma
Aggie> you get the coastal cities to Barcelona and the rest is a Neutral zone maybe
Theseus> WHOA... that is a lotta land. Gotta go, will leace this open if that's OK, and will respond later. But thanks for the counter-response!
Theseus> leave
Aggie> bye
Cort> ok guys, thanks for the chat
Ennet> be good!
Aggie> yes thank you
Cort> * exits stage left
Session Close: Sun Nov 23 02:01:35 2003

[Cort Haus]

Aggie,

To help put the land debate into perspective, we've been comparing the size of the continents in the world in terms of tile count as a rough guide to productive power. Here are the findings:

Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia)

Bob : ~ approx 750 tiles

Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia)

At the moment, GoW had around 160-170 tiles in its homeland. GS has 160 tiles plus N. Stormia.

A 2/3 to 1/3 split between GoW in the North and GS / RP in the south would give GoW 500 tiles of contiguous land - compared to around 350 tiles for GS- split over two continents. RP would have maybe four or five cities in 80-100 tiles of unbalanced, mostly rough terrain in the far SW.

This deal would see GoW triple their existing territory, while enjoying a signifcant territorial advantage over GS - so as they say : "what is there not to like?".

Regards,

CH

[Cort Haus]

Hi Aggie,

Just a quite to note to say hello, and to check that your team has recieved our analysis of land and tile-counts in the world which I sent yesterday.

We appreciate that you need time to discuss this matter amongst yourselves, but we were wondering if you could give any indication of the likelihood or otherwise of GoW accepting the principle of a 2:1 split of Bob, with GoW enjoying the 66%.

Also, have you met with Vondrack? He assured us that in the event of GoW and GS coming to an agreement, Lego would would not intervene against us. Obviously, you need to hear that from him personally, so we were wondering if progress had been made in that avenue.

Finally, regarding your expressed aspirations for the Alamo-Pamplona region - would this be a strategic location you would wish to control for the purposes of conducting operations against ND, or a permanent feature of the GoW empire?

Many thanks, and warm regards,

Cort Haus
Gathering Storm

[Cort Haus]

from Aggie

Yes we have recieved the analysis and I am impressed with them. A more formal response in the making, but I feel that before you play your turn I must inform you that it appears that this proposal will not be approved and other options are winning out. So here's my advice, play the turn as if a peace deal will not be made. We appreciate the great work and IMHO this is a fair and practical deal. However, the majority of the team feels that other options are best for our team. We do hope that the channel of communication stay open and that hopefully at a later date peace can be made.
Best of Luck
Aggie

[Cort Haus]

To Aggie

Many thanks for the note, Aggie - you're a reasonable man and it would have been a pleasure working with you.

By the way, we're thinking of becoming a mercenary civ too - so if you want to make peace and hire us - give us a call

[Cort Haus]

To Aggie

Aggie,

Thank-you again for your honesty yesterday. Your boys must be delighted to see how the peace talks depleted our Knights - but that was the risk we took You could easily have strung it out a turn to give us less chance of taking even one opponent down whilst they are routed.

You mentioned at one point in our discussions that you could concieve of an alternative peace with GS. That is comforting, but what of your team? Are there any set of circumstances (other than our capitulation and the destruction of RP) that GoW as a team would consider as peace terms? There seems little point in us making any further proposal without an understanding of where the goalposts are.

As we understand it - we are still in a position to deliver your current contract at a considerably reduced cost than the one you are currently facing. You will, of course, inevitably take Pamplona - but at a high price. We also still have many defenders dug-in around Spain, and there is a feeling amongst some in GS that seeing as Lego is effectively part of the alliance against us anyway - getting them out in the open, while getting an emotional thrill out of destroying a some GoW cities hardly makes any difference. Lego may even be forced to eventually realise that eliminating GS as a power could be the lining of their own coffin, as even their 400 tiles cannot eventually compete with a Bobian superpower's 750 tiles.

It is, as ever, a pleasure to be in communication with you.

CH

[Cort Haus]

Reminder to Aggie:

Hi Aggie,

Am I right in suggesting that the ball is your court, as regards to our diplomatic communications?

We were inquiring, if I recall correctly, as to possible alternative arrangements for peace between our nations. If your team is interested and has any proposal, please let us know. If you don't have a suggestion at this time - perhaps you can keep the channel open anway.

Regards,

CH
GS

[Cort Haus]

From Aggie:

Aggie wrote on 03-12-2003 03:48:
Hi there, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. We should definitely keep the line of communication open. Since in the end, regardless of how events go now, we will have to negotiate a peace. Also don't get discouraged about the knight stack. That was simply a matter of much luck. I have noticed that that location on the forest has been super bad for defending units(even ours).
Best of luck
Aggie

[Cort Haus]

To Aggie

Aggie,

Thanks for the reply.

A view is developing at GS that the key obstacle to peace on Bob lies in the following conundrum:

1. GS are keen to hang on to what they and their allies hold in Spain because of (a) land shortage (b) possible essential strategic resource access - but we don't know for sure yet and (c) shield investment made.

2. GoW are keen to drive GS & their allies from Spain - perhaps for the same reasons as GS wish to hold it, but with the key additional reason that Spain, or part of it, was to be ND's award to GoW under a contract to drive RP from the continent.

The longer that shields continue to be spent forcing an outcome, the more Lego benefits, and the further behind the protagonists on Bob - particularly the sqeezed nations of GoW and GS - will fall.

We could have more Forest of Doom battles before a military settlement is finally reached, but we think a better option for all 3 of us is for GoW, ND and GS to sit down together as soon as possible and determine a final settlement to the great and terrible Bobian war. Understanding as we do now that some on the GoW side have more affection and respect for RP than GS, maybe the Spanish should have a seat at the table too.

Regards,

CH

[Cort Haus]

Hi Aggie,

You may be interested to know (and have probably observed) that we are on our way home. We believe that we were not holding any SP deposits on Bob, and frankly, we didn't think much of the weather over there anyway.

Regards

Cort Haus

[Cort Haus]

from Aggie

Sorry I haven't responded earlier, my pop up blocker was intercepting my "you have PM notice". My apologies. This is good news and will try to make my team give you something in return, since one good turn deserves another.

Aggie

[Cort Haus]

and from MZ

Hello Cort,

Yes, Aggie received your PM and has shared it with our team. Thank for forwarding it to me anyway.

I am looking forward to have a post-war chat with your team, perhaps we can arrange something once the situation is over with as I would very much dislike to see GS and GoW part as enemies. This war is over, but there's still a peace to be won and that will only be done by cleaning the slate and starting anew with our relationship.

Best regards to you and your teammates,

-Master Zen
Consul of Foreign Affairs GoW